Urgent Help Most Appreciated!!

[treacle]

Hi all, I sincerely hope someone can offer some urgent advice as I am in a complete tither. javascript:smilie(':confused:')

We were standing under a tree in the park sheltering from a downpour on Sunday when both the missus and I spied a chap plodding towards the big ponds with a bowl in his hand, which appeared to contain a fish.

Neither of us could contain our curiousity and it turned out that this feller had just walked at least a couple of miles to put the fish in the pond. It was his girlfriend's pet and she was moving flat and could not take the fish with her. After he had walked so far, only to be stopped a few feet from a destination that would have undoubtedly spelled death for the fish (because of the many predators in and around the ponds), we both felt that it was fate that we stopped him and ended up adopting a new addition to our family and returned from the park with an an additional pet to add to our cat and dog

Apparently it is just a goldfish, but a very pretty one, who is no longer gold but a silvery salmon colour, with a three inch body and another three inches of gossamer like fins trailing at the rear.

When I asked this feller about the sort of tank required, he suggested that I might drive around and collect the fish's former home which is an aquarium with light, and air pump, about 2.5 ft wide x 1.5 feet deep and tall

So with this ready made set-up, I decided that I would head around to the pet shop today to find him/her a friend and to try and glean some information on looking after fish. The only fish I have had as pets before were the small goldfish one used to win at the bank holiday Hampstead fairs, which only seemed to survive from one fair to the next.

The closest fish I could find to our new pet's size was I think called a Black Moor and having brought it home and introduced it to the tank as instructed, everything seemed hunky dory. However I was about to go to bed when I suddenly realised that the original inhabitant of the tank, the goldfish has begun chasing the black fish around the tank relentlessly.

I sincerely pray this is some sort of courting ritual because otherwise I am afraid the goldfish is something of a bully and is tormenting the poor black fish to a very early grave javascript:smilie(':(')

Any suggestions as to what action I should take would be most welcome (ie, whether I should separate the fish because I don't really want to leave the black fish in a fairly small bowl overnight, if I need to return it to the pet shop tomorrow) as I am terrified of going to sleep only to wake up to find we have a disaster on our hands.

Your urgent assistance or advice would be most gratefully received

With my utmost thanks in advance in the hope of a prompt response from some helpful soul
Kind regards
Bernard

[Aderynglas]

Hi Bernard, welcome to the madness that is fishkeeping :D

As you are new to fishkeeping it might be a good idea to read the info on cycling a tank on this site, this will ensure that you have the best chance possible of keeping your fish for many years :) and they sound like a couple of beauties :)

I am assuming that the first fish is a fantail of some type? Goldfish although usually very placid can also be quite forceful with each other and nip each others fins or even stress each other out with chasing behaviour.
There are a few ways to deal with this,
1. The agressive fish could be isolated for a few days in a smaller tank/large bowl while the other fish stays in the tank. This often cures any problems but can take up to 2 weeks to work
2. Growing goldfish get very hungry and may mistake each others fins for food, in this case the remedy is to feed small amounts more often.
3. Add some plants to the tank to give the other fish somewhere to hide and ensure that the fish aren't always able to see each other.
If none of the above works it may simply be that the fish are incompatible and will never get on :( goldfish have personailties just like other fish and sometimes they clash.

The behaviour could also be courting behaviour :)
Look for white bumps on the gill covers and pectoral fins of the aggressor, these would be spawning tubercles and would indicate spawning behaviour, tho not all males get them.
The only way to tell a female goldfish is to look under the anal fin for a slight protuberance above the anal pore, if its there its definately a girl, if its not .....?:D If it is spawning behaviour the fish can damage each other quite badly so you may want to keep only one sex in the tank.

Hope this helps a little
Regards
Polly

[TKOS]

Goldfish tend to be very messy fish. They produce a lot of waste. The next time you head to the petstore I would suggest that you pick up an ammonia test kit and test every so often for ammonia spikes. And do water changes at least once a week. That will reduce waste levels and keep your fish living long happy lives.

I would suggest fake plants for your tank as goldfish will eat most real plants quite rapidly. Plus you won't need to worry about lighting and fertilizers and such, much easier. With places to hide, your goldfish will feel more secure.

One last thing is that make sure you buy goldfish food and not tropical fish food. This makes a big difference as tropical fish food is high in protein but goldfish need a food high in carbs.

Good luck and I hope you have fun with the fish!

[treacle]

Thanks a million to you both for bothering to get back to me, it is most reassuring to get some advice and I hope you will forgive me for imposing on all of you further javascript:smilie(':confused:')

The goldfish definitely looks like a Fantail would be the most appropriate name but it is quite a bit bigger than any of those I saw in the pet shop yesterday afternoon. Moreover the one specific difference I noticed was that the Fantails in the pet shop all appeared to have a somewhat more rigid looking edge to the outer 'V' of their rear fin and the gossamer 'fan' like quality of the fin could be seen between this sharp outline, whereas our Goldfish's rear fin is still a vaguely 'V' like shape but is proportionately much bigger and the entire fin ripples in the water without the sharp definition to the outer edge?

But that is by the by. We were getting so upset at how distressed the Black Moor appeared to become from this relentless onslaught from the Goldfish harrying it all around the tank that after a couple of hours we decided to remove the Black Moor from the tank.

It certainly didn't have the feeling of courting behaviour (unless the Goldfish is a dastardly wife beater!) and although it felt like we should be punishing the offender rather than the victim, the only suitable receptacle we have is the relatively small Goldfish bowl that we inherited when we adopted the Goldfish and although the Black Moor is similarly sized, it has smaller fins and it therefore made sense to put the smaller fish in there.

However it wasn't long before it began to appear distressed in the bowl. It was thrashing around in the water (which we had taken from the tank). So not knowing which was the lesser of two evils, after about half an hour I returned the Black Moor to the tank.

Sadly the Goldfish soon started harrassing it again with absolutely no respite. This went on for about four hours until eventually, to my great relief (hoping I could at long last go to bed and sleep in peace without worrying what I might find when I woke up) they seemed to settle down and the Goldfish appeared to have stopped chasing the Black Moor. Yet the moment I made the mistake of switching the light on again, it all started once more. I wasn't sure whether it was because I was scrutinizing their activity much closer than before, but it seemed to have got worse and I was terrified that the Goldfish was trying to damage the Black Moor's fins.

Having finally come across an inhabited fish related chat room (where the subject of conversation was the preservation of fish rather than the best means of skewering them on hooks and destroying them!!). According to one of the suggestions, I tried to give the Black Moor somewhere to hide (the only thing I could think of was a metal cup turned on its side). However it refused to go anyhwere near there.

Someone else suggested using a plate of glass to divide the tank and separate the two fish but despite being a good idea, it wasn't exactly practical at 5am in the morning. In my desperation I found a plastic lid to a storage box, which mercifully was a nice snug fit as a divider down the middle of the tank and at least now I am able to get some shut eye, without worrying about the Black Moor coming to any harm.

My question now (amongst the many less important queries I have about this whole fish keeping malarkey) is that this is a temporary measure. When should I take the divider away and when I do, if the Goldfish should begin driving the poor Moor mad again, at what point do I have to accept that they just might not be compatible?

It is fortunate as I was sorely tempted to get a couple of smaller fish as well as the Black Moor. I chose the Black Moor first and foremost because it was the only other fish in the pet shop of a similar size, although I have to admit that having brought it home and seen it under lights, I am particularly pleased with my choice of perhaps the most interesting looking freshwater fish in the shop, with its huge bug eyes and a belly which appears silver, while the body is mostly gold with what looks like a fish-net stocking stretched over it.

However if the Goldfish is bullying a similar sized fish, imagine how it would have treated a couple of small schnips!!

Although we've had the Moor for less than a day, we have immediately grown attached to it and we would both be upset if it proved that they were permanently incompatible. Besides, apart from getting another fish which is too big for the Goldfish to intimidate, I assume there is no way of knowing if it wouldn't react in a similar fashion to whatever company we introduce into the tank.

Finally (is that a 'phew' I hear!!), despite driving our local pet shop owner potty with all my pesky queries yesterday afternoon, I remain unsure about a number of matters. Most important of which is feeding. It would seem that while the Black Moor is not quite so greedy, both fish have the appearance of being able to eat until they burst. That is to say that despite having fed them heartily they both continue to look for food after it has been finished and the filter pump is turned back on, sucking up rocks and spitting them out, or swallowing any other bits of flotsam and jetsam in the tank.

I am therefore sure it would be easy to overfeed them, especially for a soft touch like me and the missus, as we are both likely to think they look hungry and give them a few more flakes here and there and I wondered if one has to be careful to avoid this.

I also think we might struggle with the regime suggested by the pet shop owner. According to him we should feed the two fish every other day. He suggested that in this way, on the intermediate day, the fish would help to keep their own tank clean by eating everything they can find in the tank, including their own business?

I would be most grateful for any advice you have on this matter and most importantly on what measures I can take to try and assimilate the two fish, rather than return the Black Moor to the pet shop.

I am pleased to say that he was good enough to give me the lowdown on the necessary cleaning rituals. He told me that once a week I should remove ten per cent of the water and replace it with clean water (our water here has a very high limescale content, would there be any benefit using distilled water and how does one obtain large quantities of this for little expense?) and then once a month I need to replace (I can't recall the exact figure, but) something like two thirds or three quarters of the water in the tank, which can apparently be done at the same time as one uses the dedicated tool for cleaning the gravel.

I watched a lad in the shop who showed me how this is done and it looks as though even a dunderhead like myself could manage (by contrast the previous owner of this aquarium said that all I had to do to clean the gravel was to turn upside down the plastic piston type implement that usually pumps air bubbles on to the surface of the water and to stick it under the gravel instead. I guess this might have some effect but the pump isn't nearly powerful enough to be particularly effective.

It's an expensive business this St Francis of Assisi lark. After doing our good deed by adopting the Goldfish in the first place and saving it from a fate worse than death in Clissold Park's pond (well probably a fate which would have been death), I assumed it was our good karma which resulted in us inherting the former owners entire kit and caboodle, including large tank, light, pump, plants, gravel etc. which all looked extremely pretty once it was lit up at night.

My veggie partner thought it perfect timing as a couple of tasty looking fish platters that passed before her nose in recent visits to a couple of restaurants had started her prevaricating over whether she might start eating fish once more and she said that her resolve was restored the second she set eyes on the beautiful specimen of our new Goldfish swimming happily around its tank javascript:smilie(':)')

Instead of it's former Aussie related moniker 'Dig', we renamed the goldfish 'Ridley' which is the East London road - renowned for it's street market and the 24hr bagel shop that was once a famous haunt of late night/early morning revellers - but at my age I am no longer au fait with such matters and haven't a clue if it continues to attract all the recent ravers, although as far as I am concerned, I know only too well the potential dental damage that can be done by these round runner ring indigestibles, if they are more than a few hours out of the oven and a chiken tikka marsala bagel seemed such a long way from fresh bagels, smoked salmon and cream cheese which are the only possible ingredients to make these chewy excuses for bread palatable where it's former owner lived and from, but there I go on antoher red herring, javascript:smilie(':o') which I believe would be incompatible because even I know this is a salt water fish!!! - the east London road where Ridley's former owner lived and from where the fish's saviour had taken it upon himself to walk literally for miles, carrying a bowl full of water and a fish which must have been incredibly tiring (I was knackered and my arms felt like they were dropping off merely carrying this weight out in front the few hundred yards from the park to our home, so to my mind this geezer was the real hero javascript:smilie(':cool:')

Meanwhile, before I drive you all barmy with my War and Peace like ramblings, on my visit to the pet shop, in search of an inexpensive pal for Ridley, I was told that it would save us a lot of work cleaning the tank if I invested in a score's worth of filter - 20 pounds or @ 30 us (although the pet shop owner was kind enough not to put too severe a strain on my pocket by letting me get away with the cheapest model which is ideally suited to a slightly smaller tank than ours, however he said that I could get away with it having only one or two fish), then a further ten quid for the Black Moor (because I couldn't get away with one of the three quid little ones as the pet shop owner mentioned the fact that the Ridley might bully a smaller fish - from the off hand way in which he mentioned this potential problem, am I correct in believing that it can be quite a common occurence??), the equivalent of more greenbacks (coins in this country) for some real greenery to go with the plastic stuff we inherited and finally after spending so long in the shop, there was no way I was going to get out of there without letting our very impatient dog join this spending spree party javascript:smilie(':)')

So to date (and I still have the gravel cleaning gadget to get, plus heaven only knows what else once this fish bug begins to really bite javascript:smilie(';)') !!), my good deed has ended up costing over forty quid (@65US)!

And before I go and catch some shut eye in the hope of waking to find all my questions have been answered, I shall bore you with one more inconsequential detail. When I arrived home with the Black Moor and we'd introduced it to the tank and Ridley, according to the specific instructions (about equalising the water temp between tank and bag containing the fish), everthing appeared hunky dory for the first few hours as the new arrival found its metaphorical feet and explored its new world.

The lights were on in all the fish tanks in the shop apart from the one containg this particular fish and all its bigger brothers like the koi carp. So it wasn't until it was in the tank at home with the light reflecting off it, that we were able to fully appreciate how nature had waved its wonderfully diverse magic wand over this particular creature.

It was so long ago now, but I think I already gave details of its amazing colouring, with its amazing fishnet stocking type covering. Rona and I kneeled beside the tank on our honkers having an adult debate about giving our new addition a name as we marvelled at the beauty of both animals (before all hell let loose!).

It was a weird coincidence because I must drive/walk down the road around the corner where the pet shop is at least two or three times every single day. However as it occurred to me that since we had renamed the first fish after the road where it had come from, it was worth considering this road as the name for its new mate.

It was very strange that I'd drawn a sudden blank on a road name I must mention several times a day, but as I turned to Ro for some help, as the penny dropped, we were both quite amazed at how incredibly appropriate a name it was for this particular fish, called (not Wanda) but Blackstock!

Please forgive me for prattling on ad infinitum and wasting valuable web space which could be put to a much better purpose than my meandering musings. But please don't let my shaggy fish story prejudice you from putting your minds to better use by providing me with the benefit of your fish related experience, with some solution to my current segregation problem, as I would hate to have to take Blackstock back to the shop for its best interest because there is no other option?

Again I offer you my utmost thanks in advance for taking the time and the trouble to respond, on the off chance you are able to assist

Kind regards
Bernard

[TKOS]

First off your goldfish will be bigger than those offered in most petstores because they generally offer juvinilles fish most of the time. Goldfish can get big. Normally fancy goldfish will max out around the 6 inch mark and will be very wide as well. I suppose they would eat their own waste if they were desperate but I would just try to feed a small amount every day and maybe have one day without feeding a week. I use this day as the day I clean my tanks.

Definately get some fake plants, or castles or something to decorate the tank. It will look nicer and provide line of sight blocks for the fish. Also try leaving the lights off in the tank for a few days. Sometimes it takes awhile for new fish to adapt and bright lights never help. They should be compatable fish.

Also make sure you use a water dechlorinator during water changes though I am sure you do. I would do more than 10% a week with those messy fish. Probably at leat 20% and use the gravel vacuum every week.

[OrionGirl]

Welcome to the wetside!

Very good advice offered,some of which I would like to re-iterate.

All fish are greedy guts--they will continue to eat long after their needs have been met. You MUST resist the temptation to feed more than once, and skipping a day will be beneficial to the fish and their water. Feed only as much as they eat in 1-2 minutes--no more. You can vary the diet with fresh greens--leafy lettuce, spinach, zucchini are good, nutritional choices.

Second, you may want to read some of the threads here about the nitrogen cycle. In short, the fish produce waste. This breaks down into ammonia, which can be toxic. Fortunately, bacteria consume this, making nitrites--also toxic. More bacteria consume the nitrites, making nitrates. Nitrates are not toxic, but they can be used to determine when to perform a water change. Removing enough water and diluting the rest with clean water keeps the tank happy and clean. Test kits are available to help track the conditions, and make changes as needed. For goldfish, frequent large changes are best--and not detrimental. I would plan on changing at least 25% weekly. No fish consumes it's own waste by choice, so it is up to you to clean up after them. Part of this cleaning should involve cleaning the media in the filter--rinse solids away in clean water. There are also tests for water conditions--hardness, pH, etc. Fish are sensitive to sudden changes in pH, but can adapt to a wide range of conditions. The use of distilled, or reverse osmosis filtered water is common, but not always needed. If the fish are doing well in your water currently, I wouldn't change anything--change is stressful. One thing to verify--many water sources contain chlorine or chloramines. Both of these are toxic to fish, as well as the beneficial bacteria. Chlorine will gas off under agitation, but chloramines must be treated. Determine which, if either is in your water source, and then contact the LFS for an appropriate water conditioner.

As for aggression--it happens. Fish are like any other critter--they pick an area that is 'their' turf, and they don't want an intruder mucking about in there. You can confuse the fish--adding decorations and such will help. The divider will help if it is clear--the original will get used to seeing the Moor in the tank, and eventually reduce it's harrassment to tolerable levels, or cease them all together. Keep the divider in place for 2-3 days, and try removing it. Watch them for a while, and you may need to split them up again. Courting behavior can be quite violent, though, and in some species injuries are common. Nothing but separation will work in these cases.

Keep in mind that while these fish are not tropical, nor are they as hardy as the original goldfish or koi. The tank should be kept between 21-23C. This will limit any additions--most fish available can not survive at this cold temperature, preferring 25-27C instead.

HTH!

[Aderynglas]

Hi,

I thought you might find this site interesting (and its British!!!!:D)
bristol-aquarists (www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk/)

Your water in London will be perfect for goldfish, I have insanely soft welsh water and always had to add coral gravel to keep them happy.
The goldfish picking at the gravel is perfectly normal behaviour for a goldfish, I would be worried if they didn't do this.:D

You may wish to buy the silk plants that are available rather than plastic, they are softer and less likely to cause damage to your goldfish's skin and eyes and they look more realistic too.

A good dechlorinator/dechloraminator is wardley "Chlor Out" you can find it in your local Tesco stores and it works out very economical too :D
It sounds like you have an internal filter with sponges inside?? if so please remember to rinse the sponges in tank water when you clean them so that you can keep the bacteria alive.

[treacle]

I cannot thank you all enough, as it is great to have such sound advice right at my fingertips.

I hope it is not an imposition if I continue to pester you with questions and I am sure I will have hundreds :-)

Meanwhile one that immediately jumps out at me is the suggestion to wash the sponge from the filter in tank water. Apologies if I sound completely dense (probably because I am) but might be best to treat me like a ten year old if I am to understand clearly, as sadly my four decades on this mortal coil haven't improved my common sense substantially!

When you say wash the sponge in tank water, would this involve removing water from the tank in a receptacle and then giving the sponge a shake and a squeeze in there? As if I had not been told, my instinct would have been to run it under the tap.

I won't keep prostrating myself in appreciation as it might begin to sound obsequious, but please be assured that my gratitude knows no bounds and if ever I can offer any of you any advice, or assistance on matters relating to football (soccer for our philistine friends from across the pond) and the Arsenal in particular (since it is about all I have to offer), it would indeed be my pleasure
javascript:smilie(':D')

Kind Regards and glad to have joined this happy band of fish keeping bros
Bernard

[TKOS]

Everytime you remove some water from your tank (ie once a week), take the media from your filter (ie sponge etc...) and rinse it in the water that you removed. You aren't trying to clean it per se but just trying to remove a little of the gunk that has built up so that there will be clear water flow through the filter and so that it won't decay in there possibly leading to ammonia spikes in the tank. Never replace all of the filter media at one time either as that is the majog source of good bacteria in the tank. IF you do need to replace filter media try saving some of the old and keeping it in the filter for awhile. In my filter I have had the same sponges in there for 6 months now nad have no reason to need to replace them. I also use the wardley chlor out and have had no complaints about it.

[treacle]

And there was me thinking that my part of the bargain when we decided to adopt the fish was just the responsibility of feeding once a day :-)

I wish I hadn't mentioned anything to my missus, for after telling her about 'ich', she returned from the pet shop with a 'white spot' treatment and I am now wondering if the dots I've noticed were there all the time!

Anyway I guess I will go ahead with the treatment as it would be better safe than sorry (although it looks quite a toxic affair!) but I now have even more queries.

The instructions say that I need to remove the carbon filter media. Is that just the small basket with the black stuff in the centre of the sponge, as opposed to the entire filter (ie. I can leave the filter running after just without this little container)?

Also it requires a 2nd treatment after four days and then the intructions say to leave the carbon filter media out for a further seven days. I therefore wondered whether I should keep it in a bag, or will the fact that it is damp mean that I might end up with harmful organisms?

All far too complicated for me. You need a bleedin' bio-science degree for this fish keeping malarkey! javascript:smilie(':)')

TTFN
Bernard

[TKOS]

Yes take out all of the black carbon. It will end up absorbing the meds. If there is a sponge leave that in. You can also go out and by some filter floss (polyester batting) and fill the filter with that as well. It is a very good substance that I use in all of my filters. In fact many people don't use carbon at all intheir filter unless they want to remove meds. So when you are done the treatment you put carbon in and do water changes.

[Aderynglas]

What Spots??? When Did you see spots??? :eek:

Are they on various parts of the fish?
Or just on the gill covers and pectoral fins?? if so they are likely to be spawning tubercles and the fish is in breeding condition. :)

If they are all over the fish in various places then they might be ich.

By the way love their names :D

Hope this helps
Regards
Polly

[yashinfan]

I'm joining this conversation a bit late but I'd like to tell you that 10 quid for a black moor is quite a rip-off! But, you've grown attached to it by now so there's no turning back. How big is your fish tank by the way? I don't remember reading about that. For your tank you can buy a tank divider that is quite thin and the water flows through it for pretty cheap.. I'd say about 4 to 10 pounds at the most. But that's only necessary if your fish can't get along. I was thinking, though, that since your goldfish had the tank first that it would account for why it is so destructive and aggressive. But here's some advice that should help- turn off your lights for a long time in your fish room, twenty hours is good if you can go that long. It makes the fish relax or sleep and just get used to eachother's company without getting violent. It is VERY unlikely that the goldfish'll kill your moor but I'm sure you would prefer for it to not be hassled all day long. Spruce up your tank a bit and I'm sure they'll be fine!

[treacle]

That's quite a coincidence because I discovered for the first time today that when the light is left off for a long time, both fish settled down and they appeared to be having a little kip on the bottom (although with their eyes always wide open, I wondered whether they do actually sleep at all?)

Since I am sure you are all waiting with baited breath javascript:smilie(':)') you will be pleased to hear that both fish are getting on a lot better after five days together.

The goldfish still chases the Moor every now and then, but it seems to have accepted its tank mate and the behavious appears more playful than aggressive.

The tank we inherited is according to the chart 13.8 gallons (2ft x 1ft x 15 inches)

I am not sure the price of the Moor was such a rip-off, as the small Moors were only £3.50 but since the Goldfish has a body about 3inches long with another 3inches of fin at the rear (could I be right in thinking that with her wispy rear fin that is a lot less uniform and rigid looking to all the other Goldfish I saw in the pet shop, he/she could be of the Veiltail variety?), I thought I should get a similarly sized mate, so I paid a tenner for the one biggish Moor in the shop (about 4-5 inches from tip to tail)

While it is only the pet shop on our doorstep and since he doesn't carry much stock, I can't imagine it is particularly cheap to buy in there (as all his dog stuff is slightly more than elsewhere but I guess you are paying for the convenience). However I'd be surprised if he had mad prices, because he's quite a decent chap

Funnily enough, he has another job and is finding that he can no longer manage the running of this pet shop, so we have been giving some serious thought to making him an offer and taking it over from him. It's just an idea right now, but since the fish are I imagine a substantial part of his business, I guess I would have to become a lot more clued up on the subject (although we have quite a lot of ideas to try and expand the rest of the business,, where he hasn't been able to make much of an effort)

Hence I would be extremely grateful for the benefit of anyone's experience in the business of maintaining a retail stock of fish, so that I might at least consider the matter from a point of being a little bit better informed than I am now (where what I know about the business could be written on the back of a matchbox!!)

Mind you it is a bit of an extreme measure just to get myself some cheap fish! javascript:smilie(';)')

Finally I am going to leave our two fish to get to know one another for a couple of weeks, but I am curious to hear other people's suggestions for introducing a couple more aquatic animals.

I am definitely not going to put in many more, as I like the idea that they have plenty of room to swim without bumping into one another, but I am curious as to the numbers this size of tank can comfortably sustain?

I wish I hadn't mentioned the whole Ich matter to my missus, as no sooner had I read about it than I began to see white dots everywhere. Actually on the goldfish in particular, but I am still not certain if they weren't there to start with (or perhaps they resulted from the stress of the last week, being carried in a small goldfish bowl about a couple of miles, only to eventually end up back in its original tank

Mind you I would have thought the Moor was a far more likely candidate for any problems because I would have thought that there would have been plenty of the necessary micro organisms in the gravel that was still in the tank when we got it. Also while I have added a couple of real pieces of greenery, the tank came with an assortment of furnishings and so all I added was the water (which I assume must have exactly the same contents as what both fish were used to, when they both previously resided in water that must all come from the same source

Meanwhile I've been prattling on for long enough and better sign off before I bore you all to sleep

Thanks as ever for your suggestions
Kind regards
Bernard

[TKOS]

As much fun as it is having lots of fish, I would say don't add more fish. Normally it is suggested to keep 1 goldfish per 10 gallons of water. So you are full now. That is due to the mess and the fact that they will get bigger. Probbaly 6-7 inches for fancy goldfish. Add some nice decorations and it will be nice.

One thing you can do if you end up buying the petstore is make sure to keep the cleanest tanks around. I know that there is nothing I hate more than dead fish and dirt all over tanks. Nice big clean tanks will keep a person like me coming back for more.

[Aderynglas]

£10 for a black moor a rip off??

It very much depends on the fish and where it was bred.

Price for a nice 4-5" fish bred in Britain would start at around £10 a good quality fish could cost much more.

The same fish imported from Singapore/Hong Kong would cost around the same price but not be of the same standard as the British fish (show standards are different here to China/ Japan.)

Unfortunately prices are higher in Britain than over the pond. We get ripped off for everything.
These days if I want to buy something, if its small enough, I usually find its cheaper to order it online from America and pay shipping costs :eek:

[treacle]

"These days if I want to buy something, if its small enough, I usually find its cheaper to order it online from America and pay shipping costs"

I assume you don't get fish in this fashion
':)'

Subsequent to having done my first 10 per cent clean of the tank, I have some more queries (surprise, surprise ':confused:')

Firstly why only 10 per cent and does it matter it you remove and add a little more? Also would I be right in assuming there must be a better method than sticking the golfishbowl that the fish came in a few times and then using this in the same fashion to refill the tank from the tap?

I was going to wait for the monthly (fourth week) clean before getting the little shovel with the tube on it (gravel cleaning gadget, but if this is usable for the weekly one, then I guess I should get it now. Or is there something else more suitable?

Also is the gravel cleaning gadget just that, a shovel with a piece of tubing attached where you put the other end in a bucket lower than the tank and if so, am I right in thinking you need to suck to get it started. I hope not because this reminds me of my youth and a similar process where I invariably ended up with a mouthful of petrol and I don't fancy doing likewise with water full of golfish doings!! ':eek:'

I added more than the recomended amount of AquaSafe, the anti-chlorine treatment I was sold, because I didn't have it when I originally filled the tank. Should I always add a few drops whenever I top up the tank with tap water? (if the claims on this little bottle are to be believed - heal wounds, relieve stress etc.etc, then it must be a bloody panacea and I fully expect to find them playing the 'joanna' in the morning! ';)')

As suggested I washed the sponge/foam from the filter in the water I removed from the tank, but while giving it a rub and squeezing it out, I wasn't sure at what point I stopped cleaning the goldfish doings out and began washing out the good bacteria (I assumed that the dark patches on the bright blue sponge were crap?), so any advice would be most welcome

Finally (I hope!':)') it was only after I'd started and noticed the carbon was missing when I took the sponge out that I realized it might not be the best thing having only started the 'Anti White Spot Plus' treatment on Thursday night? It occurred to me that I would be diluting the amount of the treatment in the water? The second dose is due four days after (on Monday night) and then according to the instructions, I am to leave the carbon out for a further seven days (is that because it reacts with the carbon, as it appears very toxic and I'm surprised it doesn't kill the fish as well as the bugs!)

Oh yes one other thing! The small transparent plastic tube (@ 2/3 inches) which fits on top of the filter and I guess draws air in, is not a particularly snug fit (especially as it is being bent by the tank lid) and so it keepd falling off when I remove the filter. Every time I stick my hand in to the tank to retrieve it from the bottom, or have any other cause to put my hands in the water, my missus freaks out, saying that the fish will get nicotine poisonning from my often disgustingly stained fingers (if I haven't had a go at them with the pumice stone recently - yugh, hope you've already had your brekkie!), or some other germs from off my hairy forearms, or my pinkie ring? I therefore wondered whether I need to avoid putting my hands in the tank and if so how does one go about doing stuff, eg. moving the furniture after the Moor has sucked up all the stones and uncovered the base of the plastic plants

I am sure I will think of loads more things I wanted to ask the moment I hit the send key...oh yeh, I read the advice about 1 fish per 10 gallons but we were talking about getting another couple of small fishes once these two had settled down in there, would this be in any way cruel, or would we be asking for trouble having two 3/4 inch fishes and a couple of tiddlers in a tank which is 2ft x 1ft x 15". Also is there any way of knowing how big the Goldfish and the Moor will get (as in the way one can check the paw size of a puppy to get a clue) and at what point would one be forced to transfer the fish to a bigger tank (not really an option) or give the to the pet shop?

And one more thing (!!). When I was flapping the other night about the 2 fishes fighting, I posted on all the fishy sites I could find (except those for people interested in sticking a great big hook in their mouths rather than looking after them - has it been proved yet whether fish feel pain?), as I was panicking so much that I wanted an immediate answer.

On one of these, I recieved a reply where the person told me that the Moor was a salt water fish and without salt in my water, the PH value could end up killing it? I couldn't believe this as I don't think the feller in the pet shop would have stitched me up, so does anyone know what this person was talking about because he sure succeded in winding me up to the point where I was concerned for the Moor's welfare?

Enough from me for the time being. ':)' Are all us aquatic virgins such a pain in the bum when breaking our tank cherry?

TTFN
Bernard

PS. At least I've now learnt how to use the 'smiies' correctly

[OrionGirl]

The exact amount of water is not that important--more is actually better. I do weekly changes of about 25% on all my tanks--larger changes are only done as needed (can't recall the last one on my oldest tank) for disease, large cleaning, etc. I use 2 large tubs--siphon the water into one for use on my garden and plants, and then a second to bring the new water in (after treating it for chlorine, of course). The siphon/grval cleaners are great, and used for all my tank cleaning. You can submerge the entire gadget--hose and all-with water, then cover one end with your thumb and direst it to the tub. This starts the siphon without having drink with your fish as well.

Yep, the dechlorinator should be used for most water changes. The chlorine can be gassed off through aeration, or leaving it in a open mouthed container overnight--not a bad idea, as this will also bring the water to room temperature. The additional claims are mostly silly-they shouldn't harm the fish, but I wouldn't expect to see them beating you at chess any time soon.

I always wash my hands, and rinse them twice in very hot water before I put them in the tank--and repeat this after doing maintenance as well. While there are not many diseases you could introduce, there are a number of toxins such as soap, hair spray, oils, and such. Also, there are nasties that you can pick up from the tank--though this really is a very infrequent occurance.

You will really have to scrub to get rid of the bacteria. They are tough buggers, and on more than just the surface of the sponge. Short of damage to the sponge, you shouldn't be shy about cleaning it off. Basically, the bacteria are too small to see--if you see guck, it probably ain't them.

I wouldn't add more fish to this tank. The fancy goldies will get to about 6-8 inches, depending on their water conditions and feeding. You won't find many fish that will fit in there with them and not be a possible meal (goldies don't normally eat fish, but it's been known to happen). This is one reason why those of us hooked by fish end up with numerous tanks (I have a total of 9 tanks running right now).

The poster who said your moor was a SW fish was a bit confused--there is a SW fish called a Moorish Idol, but it is in no way related to the Moor you own. Aside from needing SW, Moorish Idols are extremely delicate fish that have very poor survival rates in the aquarium--and you would have paid way more then 10 pounds for one--last one I saw went for about $500 American.