New Tank ?

[zmust]

I just purchased a 55 gallon tank last Sunday, with a Fluval 404, live sand and cured live rock. I filled the tank with tap water that had some "cleaning" chemicals added to it and salt.
I was told that it would take about a week for the tank to cycle and then you could add a blue damsel to check the water.

Any comments on a realistic time frame and which species of fish could be added relatively safely and which would be able to live together?

Most of the comments state that the marine fish are aggressive and one should be added.

[liquafaction]

I personally would not add fish untill fully cycled because to me it is inhumane. Only time will tell on the speed of your cycle using live rock. Using live rock will speed up the cycle. You need a water test kit to check the water, and hydrometer for salinity, a thermometer for temp.

[zmust]

I bought a test kit yesterday and intend to do the tests tonight.
The water specific gravity was 1.021. The test kits included the following :
pH
Alkalinity
Nitrite
Nitrate
Ammonia (NH3/NH4)

Is there any other test I should be doing?
Thanks

[liquafaction]

That is a question for some of the veteran members. I do know that if you are intendeing to do corals, they require a higher calcium level. As far a cycling goes, you should do alright with the tetst kit you have


If I am not mistaking:

ph and alkalinity are the same test

no2 are nitrites

no3 are nitrates

amonia and amonium are the same test

[mogurnda]

First, I'll do the usual spiel: To make this work, it wil help a whole lot to read before plunging in. Bob Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist and John Tullock's Natural Reef Aquariums are great starting points.
After that, it will be necessary to figure out what kind of tank you will want. Fish only, fish only with live rock, or reef with corals. This will dictate your filtration and lighting needs.
Meantime, you need to grow bacteria in the tank to deal with the waste of the inhabitants, a process known as "cycling." The old-fashioned way is to throw a damsel in and let it suffer through the waves of ammonia (NH3), nitrite (NO2) that result. Some think it's cruel, and you're stuck with a damsel in the end. Another way is to throw a cocktail shrimp in and let it rot (search this site for "fishless cycle"). My preferred method is to buy uncured live rock and let the decomposition of the stuff kick start the cycle.
This brings us to the test kits. Fish waste is largely ammonia, and the solid waste will break down to release it as well. Without bacteria, it would build up and poison everyone quickly. Fortunately, there are germs that convert it into nitrite, which is also toxic. Different germs oxidize the nitrite to nitrate, which is relatively non-toxic. When you start a tank, you will see NH3 go way up for about the first week or more, then dropping to 0, then NO2 goes up for several weeks before going away, then NO3 will go up, and will stay up, unless you do something about it, like having live rock and a deep sand bed. NH3 and NO2 are the most important things to monitor when you start. In an established tank these should always be zero.
Once the tank is cycled, you want to keep pH between about 8.2 and 8.4, and alkalinity (the ability of the water to buffer the pH) around 3-4.
Keeping a saltwater tank can be relatively simple, but you need to understand the processes. Others will hopefully add to this thread, but you will still be at a serious disadvantage if you don't do some reading.

[zmust]

I initially had experience with freshwater fish but when I went to the local fish store, the beauty of the saltwater fish and coral made me change my mind.
I really am not sure which way to proceed, whether it is with a combination of fish/live coral.
I have borrowed a book from the local library : "The complete book of the marine aquarium" - Vincent B. Hargreaves and have ordered a couple more from Amazon (which I am still awaiting delivery of).
The only problem with reading is some of the terms are new and takes a bit getting used to. I have also been reading the forums diligently for all the hints and shortcuts I may be able to pick up.
I never worried about the chemical levels with freshwater fish.
Please excuse my ignorance if I may ask either idiotic or naive questions.
Thanks very much for the replies. I appreciate the posts very much.

[mogurnda]

I just reread your first post. You have got a decent start, just keep your eye on your NH3/NO2 levels for the time being. Even cured live rock will have some die off.
If you ordered either Fenner or Tullock's book, they explain a lot of the terms that sound mysterious to you. I haven't read Hargreaves' book, so I don't know how complete, up to date, or clear it is.

[zmust]

The books I ordered were the following :

1) The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists
by Robert M. Fenner, Christopher Turk and

2) The New Marine Aquarium: Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guideby Michael S. Paletta, Edward Kadunc (Illustrator),

I believe I ordered them after seeing some posts in this board.

[pussycat]

you did real good!! keep up the reading!


pussycat

[liquafaction]

I have the book by Vincent B. Hargreaves . It almost completly contradicts what you learn in here.

It says not to use sand base unless you have a plenum on a berlin system.

It says to always use a filter for a berlin system.

It says that it takes 90 days to cycle fishless.

and on and on and on.

but it did get me intrested in doing a saltwater tank. It has nice pictures of fish, inverts, and algae, what they eat, hardiness, and stability in reef tanks, or fish only tanks. That seems to be about the same as what is in here

[zmust]

Well, I finally received the two books yesterday and read the first chapter of one book.

As far as the Hargreaves book is concerned, it does have some beautiful pictures of each species and is sorted by phyla, just like in zoology.Sad to say but I never paid any attention to the 90 day fishless cycle. Must be information overload.

[zmust]

A couple more questions.

A day after the installation, the water was clear. I subsequently added water and raised the level of the outlet pump tube. Now, I occasionally see sand in the water. Is that normal or should I check the pump?

There is also an oily residue at the surface of the water which I removed with newspaper. Are those the proteins that should be removed with a protein skimmer?

[kreblak]

Sand in the water is usually an indicator of too much water flow pointed at a particular spot on your substrate. Basically, you've been stirring up the sand bed. Try aiming your directional flows elsewhere, and make sure that you don't have too much force at a tank wall, which will just travel straight down into the sand and stir it up.

As far as the oily residue at the top of the water, that is normal. What do you have in the tank as far as livestock goes? Any fish yet, or just live rock? Usually, that residue is the result of nitrogen cycle activity in the tank. Skimming did a marvelous job of removing that sheen from my water surface, and my dissolved oxygen levels in the water increased once that slick was no longer interfering with gas exchange.

[zmust]

I haven't put any fish in yet. I did a test and the Nitrite levels were too high. Hoping to check level again in a few days. Hoping to add a blue damsel initially, and then a yellow tang.

Is a skimmer necessary right now and is there any make/model that could be recommended for a 55 gallon tank?

[kreblak]

I would not add that damsel first, if I were you. Damsels are incredibly territorial fish, especially Blue Devils. Adding him first will cause him to establish the entirety of your 55 gallon tank as "his." When you later add the tang, you will very likely have aggression problems between your fish.

If you are using the damsel as a barometer for water quality, just rely on your water tests instead. If you doubt your own tests, take a water sample to the LFS, and have them double check your results. Once ammonia and nitrites are zero, you are clear to add fish, so long as your other parameters are all right.

For skimming, I have heard excellent feedback about Prizm and Berlin skimmers. They aren't too expensive, and work well.

[BrianH]

Since you don't mention having a sump I will assume you are looking for a HOT skimmer. IMHO I would say that the best HOT skimmers on the market are the Aqua C Remora Pro and the CPR Bak Pak(double version). For a tank that size, I would go with the remora pro. Remember that you get what you pay for.

Brian

[zmust]

A bit confused right now.

Is it possible to put more than one fish initially eg. a yellow tang and damsel? Both would be introduced to the tank at the same time and hopefully both their aggressive behavior.Would that cause an imbalance in the cycle or tank ecosystem?

Could a small damsel chase a medium-big tang?

Back to fish selection, which would be the ideal to start off with?

[kreblak]

I owned a two inch damsel that chased and killed a four inch marroon clownfish, and a four inch yellow tang! Damsels are mean little buggers. Adding both fish at the same time will be better than adding the damsel first, but you are right to worry about the biofilter not being able to handle the increased ammonia load. Unless you really want the damsel, I would suggest adding the tang first, and then adding the damsel after about 3 weeks or so.

[tmace64]

Do not add any fish until your tank is cycled. I was led to believe that the only way to cycle a tank was with live damsels. This was told to me by my LFS. Cycle your tank with LR or cocktail shrimp.

Any attempt to cycle a tank with live fish always brings some death, not a nice experience when just starting a tank.

Like a great pot of home made stew, or a vintage wine,,,, marine tanks take time to "simmer." You have to allow time for bacterias to grow and multiply so they can take care of the fish and their daily habits,,,,--- eating and deficating. The fish, substrate, LR and a good protein skimmer all act together to keep this delicate balance of chemicals so that sensitive, beautiful marine life can thrive within "your" domicile.

Patients, nevermind fish for right now, get other opinions on using LR and cocktail shrimp to cycle your tank. I've read here that in some cases, using cocktail shrimp can lead to a faster cycle.

BTW - I lost 9 damsels cycling my tank, horrible!!! I wish I had known what I know now!! From now on,,,, any new tanks will be cycled with cocktail shrimp.

GOOD LUCK,,,,, and yes,,,, check online,,, there are lots of great books out there,,, simple light reading too, they'll get your started real quick, you'll know more of what to expect during cycling.



Tod

[zmust]

Right now, after almost a week, I have the following readings:
Ammonia : 0.25
Nitrite : 0.20
Nitrate : 10
pH : 8.4
Alkalinity : 3.2
Specific gravity : 1.021

I will have to wait a few more days for the system to stabilize. I am using cured live rock and live sand.

According to "The New Marine Aquarium- Michael Paletta", he states that with live rock you could theoretically stock 1 inch of fish for every 2 gallons of water. Is that realistic?
That would mean I would be able to put in about seven 4 inch fish in the 55 gallon tank.

I changed the position of the outflow tube and the tank water is much more clearer now.

Thanks again for all the comments. It's refreshing to know that everyone has gone through these growing pains. Hopefully, I will learn.

[kreblak]

You will learn, after a while it becomes second nature. Glad to hear that it was just the directional flow stirring up the sand bed. Oh, and definitely wait until your ammonia and nitrite readings hit zero before adding fish.

[zmust]

Here I go, putting the cart before the horse again.

Just throwing out another idea and would appreciate any comments.

Would it be OK to add the so called "cleaner invertebrates" in at the same time as the fish?

There are so many beautiful fish out there, it is difficult to make one's mind up.

[Ray Pollett]

According to "The New Marine Aquarium- Michael Paletta", he states that with live rock you could theoretically stock 1 inch of fish for every 2 gallons of water. Is that realistic?
That would mean I would be able to put in about seven 4 inch fish in the 55 gallon tank.

That is the reason I no longer recommend his book to newbies. That is not a good rule to follow IMHO.

Ray

[Ray Pollett]

Originally posted by zmust
Here I go, putting the cart before the horse again.

Just throwing out another idea and would appreciate any comments.

Would it be OK to add the so called "cleaner invertebrates" in at the same time as the fish?

There are so many beautiful fish out there, it is difficult to make one's mind up.

The best way in my opinion is to put in your Detrivores and cleanup crew after the cycle and atleast 3 weeks before the first fish. You can get them at:

www.IPSF.com and
http://www.inlandaquatics.com

Ray

[zmust]

Still a little way off from optimum conditions

Current readings:
Ammonia - 0.25
Nitrite - 0.10
Nitrate - 5.0
pH - 8.4
Alkalinity - 3.2
Specific gravity - 1.022

I will have to give it a few more days. Almost getting there.

[zmust]

Adding fish ?

I am planning on adding fish to the cycled 60g tank this weekend.

I am hoping to add 2 clownfish, a yellow tang and a blue damsel together. Will they be able to survive together?

[kreblak]

They should be okay in a 60 gallon, as long as there are plenty of hiding spaces and territory for them to claim.

[BrianH]

Has your tank cycled yet? You had ammonia and nitrites just a few days ago. Anyway, I wouldn't add that many fish at once anytime, much less right after your cycle has finished. Add the 2 clowns first and wait a couple of weeks for the tang, then a couple more weeks for the damsel. JMHO

Brian

[zmust]

I don't have the current reading right now, but the nitrites were down to zero, and all the other readings were down too except that the nitrates were at 2.5. Hopefully, it will clear in afew days.

I thought that it might be OK to add all together because most of my reading and the postings indicate that "generally" fish are aggressive and don't look upon too kindly to intruders or new arrivals.

[pussycat]

generally the reason for placing just one fish in your tank at a time (or one species) is so that you can monitor it for disease. you would also want to put the said fish in to a quarantine tank to do so. you would keep the fish in there for 4 weeks. if healthy, place him into your show tank and put your 2nd specimen in QT for 4 wks and so on. the reason is that you dont want to bring home an infected fish and have him infect the rest of your crew. if you are getting more than one of a kind, you can QT them together.
also, you want to start with your least aggressive fish on your list so that they get a chance to feel comfortable in the main tank without the more aggressive fish around to be bossy over them.
this of course is IMHO

pussycat

[zmust]

I purchased a couple of devil blue damsels last week and 3 green chromis last week and 12 lbs of cured live rock. One of the blue damsels was almost vertical ( it kept on pecking the bottom of the plastic bag it was in). I added water gradually over a period of two hours and then transferred the fish into the tank. I had also bought a protein skimmer earlier in the week.
All the fish hid within the rock for about 3 hours and then started getting more adventurous and venturing out. The only one that did not come out was the previously mentioned damsel which was hiding and was still pecking at the sand and still vertical.
The next day, it was dead.
All the other fish are swimming about normally (at least I think so)
and are eating flakes vigorously. I thought that they would hide in the live rock but they seem to be having races with each other in the water above and occasionally turn on each other.
All the chemical levels have stabilized and the nitrate level is the only one with a slightly higher than normal reading (2.5ppm). Nitrite 0.00
pH=8.4
Specific gravity=1.022
Ammonia = 0
Alalinity = 3.2

6 days and counting.

[pussycat]

you might want to keep an eye on the blue damsels. i had two and the larger bullied the smaller one almost to death. i returned them to the LFS. sometimes you need to get at least 6 in order not to have so much bullying. you might want to read up on that particular species. that "racing" is probably more like "chasing".

hope this helps,

pussycat

[zmust]

Sad to say but all the fish died overnight.
I am not sure what caused it. I noticed that the water had a lot of dust on the surface and other debris within it. I changed the water (added 5 gallons) with a new brand of salt. My old supply had finished. All the chemical levels were normal although the nitrite seemed to go up to 0.2 (can never be sure with the reading).
I had also added a lot of low light corals. I'll have to recheck the chemical levels for a couple of weeks prior to putting any more fish.