Sphagnum Moss

[PumaWard]

Hello everyone,

I have a question about sphagnum moss. I searched the forums and found that you can use gardening sphagnum moss (I have some whole strand spagnum moss that I use for my orchids, I don't think its been treated with anything). I just want to make sure that it is okay to use in an aquarium with the fish and plants that I have. If it is okay, I would like to know how much to use and how to use it. I'll give as much of my tank specs as possible

Tank + Water:
75 gallons
65-100 Whisper Power Filter
pH of (about) 7.5-8 (I can't find the meter for it)
0 ammonia, nitrites, nitrates
77F
Tank has cycled a little over a year


Plants: (I can change plants if I have to)

Java Moss
Hornwart
Common Pond Elodea
Common Pond Lilly pads
A very little amount of duckweed

Tank Inhabitants:

1 small Angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare)
1 German Blue Ram (Apistogramma ramirezi)
3 Blue Panda Apistos (Apistogramma panduro)
2 Dojo Loaches (Misgurnus angullicaudatus)
1 Kuhli Loach (Pangio kuhlii)
3 Pearl Gourami (Trichogaster Leerii)
3 Female Bettas (Betta Splendens)
2 Male Bettas (Betta Splendens)
1 Young Paradise fish (Macropodus opercularis)
4 Spike-tail Paradise fish (Pseudosphromenus dayi)
3 Mollies (Poecillia Sphenops)
3 Guppies (Poecillia Reticulata)
A ton of mystery snails
a few Ramshorn Snails

I would like to lower the pH to around 6.5 or something comfortable for all the fish I have.
I realize that I have a bunch of "No, no's" with some of the Labyrinths I have, but everyone gets along well together. Any advice on the sphagnum moss would be great. Thanks!

-Puma

[RTR]

The first question would be why do you need to change the pH of the tank? Water modification is a major undertaking, and not easy to maintain stability once done. This should not be undertaken lightly without good reason.

Long-grain sphagnum will pull some minerals from the water, and with enough time and mass of the dried moss, will reduce the hardness. Sphagnum peat would do the job more quickly, but will heavily tint the water with tannins. The water in either case should be pre-treated prior to addition to the tank.

Do you know the GH and KH of your water?

[wetmanNY]

I see at least four fish communities in your list. That kuhli loach would be happier with several more for company. The guppies and mollies won't take well to the tannins you're introducing with sphagnum peat. They'd prefer alkaline water without any tannins.

Putting peat in a glass or plastic bowl and pouring boiling water over it, then leaving it to steep overnight will give you a peat tea you may find useful.

[Tim Bo]

I would also think twice about fiddling with your water. If you do, make sure you purchase pH and KH test kits so you can keep an eye on how the peat moss affects your water in the short and long term or you might end up looking at some unhappy fish. I am very curious to hear how the use of 'ordinary' sphagnum peat moss will work if you do use it...like RTR says, it will definitely pull nutirents out of the water for a while...

[PumaWard]

Thanks,

So do most of you recommend I leave it out?... The reason I thought it might be better to change it was for the 4 apistograms in the tank, and I would do it slowly..not all at once. The kuhli loach used to have a male with her, but he died of unknown causes (There were no wounds and no sign of illness prier to or after death). She does, however, seem to enjoy the company of the dojo loaches and always comes out during feeding times. Also, I do have a pH test kit, but I lost the color meter that goes with it... however, I have been using it for a few years now and know about the range by the color. I did a test this morning to check it before even thinking about changing it.
Thanks for your input :).

[Tim Bo]

I don't recommend you do it, especially if you don't know the precise pH, kH and Gh values of your water before and after a water change. You especially have to monitor how your tank water is affected by different amounts of peat, replacement times, fish load etc. If you really feel you have to do it, you have a good excuse to get atleast another tank for the apisto's IMHO!


Just a side note...I couldn't help notice that you listed the German Blue Ram as being Apistogramma Ramirezi...Ithat name is apparently no longer valid, the fish is generally known today as Mic(k)rogeophagus Ramirezi.

[PumaWard]

Again, thanks. I do now know the exact ph...it's 7.2, so I guess the apistos would be all right. I am getting a 'master test kit' soon, hopefully. I would put the apistos in another tank except they just got settled in and I don't have space for another tank (all but the ram were given to us). All other tanks we have would not be suitable. But thank you for your information, and I'll keep in mind the newer genus name for the rams. :) Thanks!

[JP457]

I' have been taking a field bio course this summer and had an Idea. Why not use live peat, I have seen it all over the place? The pH change should be more gradual, there would probably be less coloration of the water and it is pretty good looking when its alive. Never heard of it done though so someone else will have to tell you any problems it may cause.

[RTR]

Quibble - there is no such thing as "live peat" contradiction in terms. I think you mean live sphagnum moss. It is a beautiful red in good light and quite easy, but it is not going to be very effective unless you have lots of it - like a greenhouse bench full. Not very practical. If over mineralized (hard water or nutrient addition) it can be killed.

[PumaWard]

I have some sort of sphagnum moss growing in a swamp behind my house. Could that be a possibility? Of course I would have to make sure all the nasty stuff is out of it, but I don't think that would be to hard.

[Tim Bo]

Lucky you! I know that in living sphagnum peat moss, the cell walls also function as ion exchangers and still absorb cations, such as calcium and magnesium supplied by rainwater and release hydrogen ions into the water. However, I don't think it will have the same rapid affect on your water as partially decayed (humification) peat that has otherwise come into existence via conditions of restricted microbial activity. Like RTR said earlier, you would probably need an intire greenhouse of the live stuff. You might end up using wrotting sphaqnum moss in the long run...As far as I understand, live sphagnum peat moss is part dead and alive since the bottom segment dies off pretty fast from lack of light while the top part is the only live, growing segment. Take from the bottom if you use it. Sounds like an experiment to me...

[PumaWard]

I'll try it in an empty aquariam or vase. Find out if it works.

[Tim Bo]

Please give us a feedback on what happens. Test results are welcome! :)

[PumaWard]

Will do :)

[wetmanNY]

The thing about peat is that the nitrogenous material and easily biodegradeable stuff has already dissolved away-- and been rapidly taken up by strongly growing moss,in the nutrient-poor swamp water. What's left is only slowly breaking down, on its way to becoming humus.

In a similar vein, I put dry dead beech leaves in some of my aquaria, for the tannins etc. If I put fresh green ones, a lot of sappy nitrogen etc would be released into the system.

All the ion-exchanging character that accounts for peat's water softening characteristics is in the humic substances that remain when Sphagnum moss is already partly decayed.

Live Sphagnum is still an interesting experiment. No "nasties" in it-- unless there's a predatory dragonfly nymph. You're much more likely to introduce a pest transferring plants from one fishtank (perhaps at the LFS) to another...

[PumaWard]

I made a little mistake... it's not actually a swamp but a cranberry bog...:rolleyes: Anyway, I disagree that it is poor in nurtients. It is full of minerals and nutrients. Leaves fall from the trees around it every year, which releases the nutrients located in those leaves as they decay. You have to remember that a swamp/bog retains nutrient because it acts like a strainer only for soil. It holds nutrients that are leeched into it from the surrounding soil. As an edition, I went out and took a pH sample, that water was close to 6, give or take a little. This, however, does not only reflect the effects of the peat... also other acidic organic materials such as pine needles.

The nasties are things like dragonfly larvae...the accansional giant water beetle (which is bigger than most my fish). Also, I don't know if there is any parasitic worms that reside in there or things like that. I don't want to take any chances anyway :), I've lost enough fish over the last year.


So, I am going to try it in a vase or my small tank (both of which are empty) and experiment. After probably two weeks I'll put up the results.

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate it.

[wetmanNY]

A pH reading that registers as 6.0 may simply be reflecting the low-end limit of the usual pH testing reagent, Bromthymol Blue. Below about 6.2 it merely stays at yellow and can't register lower pH values. A cranberry bog is often well below pH 6.0.

Good water for touchy Apistogramma species, eh!

[Tim Bo]

I'm all excited now.

I have only made one pH test on a bog in Denmark over by my parents' house and it gave a result of pH 3.5!!

[PumaWard]

Wow.... Seems like it would almost burn your finger off :), j/k... That's low, does anything live in it, like frogs or other amphibians and insects?

[Tim Bo]

I was thinking the same thing after the test...pulling out my finger and seeing just the bone left! There were a few critters around - frogs are plentiful in most areas, birds, but no fish what-so-ever. This bog is rather large - the part I took a test from was from an area of no water movement, well protected - no wind, lots of reeds, little if no colorful vegetation, surrouned by trees (half of them dead), and sporting a very dark, murky sediment. There were lots of insects both airborne and water dwelling. Further out, the water seems more subjected to the elements and there are more colorful plants and grasses growing. I would not be suprised if other areas of the bog gave different readings.