Thanks so much for the info! I still need help

[PuppyFluffer]

Many thanks to all of you for helping us newbies out!

I have set up a 1.66 gallon betta tank previously. I've never done any water testing, just sporatic water changing and miraculously the little guy lived for several years. I replaced him when he passed and "Sushi II" has been doing just fine. This is my only fish experience.

I recently looked into setting up a larger tank for my 5 year old to enjoy (and me to take care of). I got a MiniBow5 - a small acrylic tank with a bow front. After gravel and a few artificial plants, it holds almost 4 gallons. I have filled it with bottled spring water.

I went to the LFS and explained the set up and walked around with my daughter to figure out what she wanted. We settled on neon tetras and a pygmy frog.

I was very clear with the employee that I was patient and didn't want to kill any fish. I was in no rush to place fish and that I didn't consider them expendable since they were "just fish" and cheap. The employee said that I could add Bio-Spira (am I getting the name right?) and fish on the same day. He didn't explain the water testing or the nitrogen cycle. I had done some preliminary reading on these things and I expressed some concern that I could do this all at once and successfully establish the tank.

Well, I've killed 3 of the 4 neons and the last one doesn't look good. The frog seems fine. I am feeding live black worms to the frog (the neons ate them too) and flakes to the neons.

I did a 25% water change mid week.

I tested things today and I have nitrogen and nitrite higher than they should be. Nitrate is fine. (I am using the Tetra test kits which give me a color bar and mg/l measurements.) My tank is not cycled correct?

I just did a big water change, about75-80% I would guess. I figured the polluted water needed to go.

How should I proceed?

I was fully ready to be patient and cycle the tank without fish....but this employee assured me it would work just fine. I am pissed at myself for listening to him!

What would you put in a tank this small once i get it fully cycled and ready?

[Coler]

correct (tank cycling) - no nitrates because the relevant bacteria have not developed...the biospira is hit and miss and seems to depend a lot on whether it was stored (refrigerated I believe) correctly.

what to do in a 4 gallon tank ? I'm not so hot on that one - no experience of a tank that small. It would seem most people would keep a betta in there...couple of ghost shrimp maybe.

did you ever think of maybe going up to a nice medium-small size tank - 10, even 20 gallons or so ? They're actually easier to maintain in many important ways - more water = less volatile, and you could do really nice e.g. shoal of neon tetras, a dwarf gourami and some corydoras...would be lovely :)

as regards the 4 gallon with 1 neon - the water change will certainly help; you need to change out water whenever ammonia or nitrite is .25 ppm or more, and you need a good water conditioner - what are you using right now ?

(oh and welcome to AC :))

[OldMan1947]

A 5 gallon mini bow is a good size for a single betta or a few neons. At that stocking level it would be easy to maintain without too much trouble. As far as cycling the tank, if you mean ammonia and nitrite are higher than they should be, it means the bio-spira was not effective in getting the cycle going. You are now faced with large and frequent water changes if you want to keep your fish alive. From what I have read, the only commercial product that sometimes works is the bio-spira. I have never used it because by the time I heard about cycling, I had an established tank. It always has a filter that I can steal some media from to get the cycle started in my new tank. That always works quickly but is not instant. It might take a week to get everything working just right with a small stock of fish.

[PuppyFluffer]

Thanks for the welcome! You folks are really nice around here.

The Bio-Spira was refirgerated when I purchased it. It was a 45 min ride home and I added it as soon as I got here. Maybe it was ineffective - well, it seems obvious that it didn't work!

As for the test results. As I mentioned, I am using the Tetra test kits. Are they ok or is there something better?

They mark their results in mg/l. Is that equivalant to ppm?

The results are a color bar chart and you match up the color.
Ammonia registered between the 0.25 and the 1.5 mg/l colors.
Nitrite came in at 0.3 mg/l.
Nitrate came in at 0.

Talk to me about water conditioners. I'm not using anything. I have well water with no added chemicals but for this tank (and the 1.66 gal betta tanks too) I use bottled spring water. Does that need to be "conditioned" and what does that entail?

Hell yes! I have considered going up in size to a larger tank. I can totally see how this little hobby starts out. You think you want a betta, then you go to the fish store and you see those really cool clown loaches, and the fancy goldfish catch your eye....you get a bigger tank....then you go back to the LFS and you see live rock and coral and you think "hey, I can do a saltwater tank right?" Next thing you know, you have a tank in every room! I've already got ideas! LOL

We actually have a 10 gallon in the basement that was given to us that I forgot we had or I would have just set that one up and not bothered with this smaller one. Once I get this one sorted out, I'll think about setting up the 10 gal.

[PuppyFluffer]

OldMan, some questions for you?

I have two male bettas in their own tanks on the kitchen counter - eithe rside of the sink. (My husband is cute. We just did a kitchen renovation and he told me "I didn't spend $16,000 on a new kitchen just so you could house fish on the counters." I just smiled and gave him a kiss.)

About stocking this tank....The guy at the fish store told me that we could probably do 4 neons, 2 of the smallest cory cats and the frog. Is that too much?

I have been told that neons are sensitive fish. Is there something more hardy I should be looking for?

My daughter really wants the frog! Is he ok solo or does he want another frog buddy? She has also said she wants a female betta. What could we add with a female betta or does she have to be solo?

[PuppyFluffer]

Also some questions about filters?

This tank has a Whisper filter. It has a carbon filter that you slip in. In the tank instructions, it said it should be replaced every so often. I don't recall the interval. I have been reading about rinsing filters in the tank water. Which is it? If I replace it, do I get rid of the beneficial bacteria?

[OldMan47]

If you replace the filter, the beneficial bacteria in the filter are gone. Depending on what other high flow surfaces exist in the tank you may or may not have any significant quantity left. Rinsing in used tank water means keeping the bacteria you have. It also means any benefit you might have gotten from the carbon is gone because most carbon is exhasuted after just a few weeks. The trade off is that we usually do enough partial water changes to not really need the carbon. None of us want to do enough partial water changes to maintain an uncycled tank for long. The best of all worlds is a filter where the components are separate. The filter media / bio media are separate from the carbon. In that case you could change the carbon if you felt you really needed it and not remove the biofilter in the process.
The stocking with the neons and 2 dwarf cories would be OK. I don't know enough about frogs but my guess its it would put you over the top. A female betta would go well with the cories or the neons but I'd be a little concerned about both being too many fish. You would definitely be on the edge of over stocked.

[PuppyFluffer]

Thanks for the info. I did some reading on the "articles" secton here and there is a good article on the dwarf frogs. It said as a bioload, they could be considered equivalant to a tetra. So I could just consider him as another fish.

He's the sole survivor now. The last neon died! This is so sad and sucks so much!

I did a huge water change and i"ll check the chemistry again in the morning, about 12 hours after the water change.

We just might go with another betta. I seem to be able to keep them!

Should I try another round of Bio-Spira or just hope that i can get this thing cycled with the frog and tons of water changes?

[leighasnana]

I had an african dwarf frog in a 5 gallon and he did great in there. He's living at my sister's now as one of hers died and she wanted the remaining one to have a friend. 5 gallons is fine for them as they need to come up for air. I had lots of plants in that tank, snails and a betta. Another great little fish is the harlequin rasbora. I have them in a 55 gal. I don't know if they need lots of swimming room so you'd have to research them. They're tough and very colourful. Shrimp are interesting - check to make sure the frog won't eat them. I don't think it would because ADF's are almost blind. You could have a shrimp/snail tank with the frog.

Do you know anyone with an established tank? The easiest way to cycle a tank is to use some of the filter media from an established filter and just shove it into your filter, behind the media that's in there now. Lots of plants helps too. From what I've heard about Bio-Spira is that it depends on how it's been shipped, it needs to be refrigerated. If in transit it was left sitting somewhere it could be useless which is why people say it's hit and miss. If you know someone with an established tank I'd go that route. Borrow decorations from the tank and plants, get some of their gravel (just stick it in a nylon if the colour isn't right) and filter media. Some small stores will give you this stuff if you can trust that their tanks are healthy.

I'm sorry about the neons, they're delicate little guys. I just got 5 very healthy tiny ones which I'm growing out to be sure they'll make it in the big tank. I was lucky this time and have lost many of them soon after purchase. When you're starting out it's best to go with tough fish and to add them very slowly. Don't add anything for awhile and feed the frog very lightly. The less waste the better for now.

Using the Bio-Spira again is your call. If you get a good bottle great if not you'll be doing the water changes until levels are at 0. Good luck and don't give up.

[PuppyFluffer]

I am thoroughly ready to give up!

This tank holds about 3.8 gallons I am guessing. I did a radical water change yesterday. I removed 1 gal and replaced with bottled spring water in the morning. I went to the store and got more water and replaced 2 more gallons in the mid afternoon. I left the tank overnight (and the last neon was dead when I checked at about 4am when I got up to pee - I'm pregnant! LOL)

I just checked the ammonia again and it is showing 1.5 mg/l. That's in the middle of the scale and a far cry from 0.

I am calling the fish store tomorrow and expressing my dissatisifaction with the advice to add Bio-spira and fish on the same day. And neons to boot. I keep reading they are sensitive fish. Why would you advise a totally novice tank owner to do this?????

So, do i change out the whole tank this time and hope it drops the ammonia? How can the ammonia be so high after I changed out 3 gallons from an almost 4 gallon tank?

I am really tempted to take this frog back before I kill it too and cycle this **** tank with no fish - which is what I expressed to the guy I was fully ready to do in the first place!

[THE V]

Alright this might seem a little unorthodox but you did mention that you have two betta's in small tanks in your kitchen. Do you have rocks/gravel in the bottom of these bowls (hopefully at least 1 gallon in size)? If you do you can take 1/4 of the rocks from both tanks and hang it in a nylon sock directly in the output stream from the filter. You will need to increase your water changes for the betta's in the meantime but this can help get your tank set up.

As for the bottle spring water, unless your well water is very hard or has a pH of below 6 or above 8, it will work just fine for your fish. I actually started out fishkeeping on well water, I didn't learn about chlorine until I moved into a city and had all of my tank die within 2 hours of being there.

[PuppyFluffer]

Only one betta tank is established. The other is fairly new and I am doing water changes on it and the fish is doing fine so far. I can certainly take some rocks from the established tank and see what happens.

I've been using spring water only because I changed my first betta's tank with the well water once and had a huge explosion of green algae. Our ground water comes up through limestone and I wondered if there was some sort of mineral in it that fed the algae. It's great tasting water but I didn't like the algae response so I've not been using it. Any ideas on why the algae spiked?

[THE V]

I've been using spring water only because I changed my first betta's tank with the well water once and had a huge explosion of green algae. Our ground water comes up through limestone and I wondered if there was some sort of mineral in it that fed the algae. It's great tasting water but I didn't like the algae response so I've not been using it. Any ideas on why the algae spiked?

Your water is probably pretty good for the fish as limestone makes you water high in KH. The algae bloom is probably from a higher phosphate level in the well water than in the spring water that you are buying. Here's a link that does a pretty good explanation of water chemistry.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html

There is also tons of threads in this forum asking how to control algae that may be of help. They usually recommend plants and less amount of light.

[OldMan47]

I think your gut reaction is a good one. Take the frog back and do a fishless cycle. The frustration of continuing to try it with fish in and losing the frog in the end would be a huge let down. If you don't take it back, you need to do several large water changes in a short time to get the ammonia levels below .25 mg/l.
As you said in your starting question, being patient enough to do a fishless cycle is the main drawback to doing it. It does take some patience to look at an empty tank for a few weeks. The media from the betta tank is a great idea to speed the process.
As "The V" said, the water from your well might be fine for fish, especially live bearers or african rift lake fish. Going through limestone will tend to make the pH on the high side and harden the water some. Unless its excessive, most fish could adapt to it but some like the africans will actually prefer it. I would not make this radical a change with fish in the tank. Whatever you have that is alive has become accustomed to the water that you have been using. Any change over should be gradual if you have fish in the tank.

[PuppyFluffer]

Thanks all for the feedback. It will be days before I can get to the fish store. It's a hour away. I do have a friend with two tanks. Maybe he'll want a new frog!

What pisses me off so bad is that I was fully prepared to do this fishless for how ever long it took. I won't be swayed by fish store employees against my gut feeling again! URG! I'm just sad that four little neons paid the price! Just because they are little fish doesn't mean they are disposable! Heck, we name the fish around here. They really are pets!

Thanks again for the advice!

[Draal5]

You could try putting the frog in with the one of your bettas. This will be hit or miss depending on whether the betta bothers him and size of his tank this would mean more water changes but better for him then the spikes in no2 and ammonia.

You could also ask your friend for a hand full of grave from their tank and put it your tank this will speed up the cycle time. you can either just put in the tank or put it in a filter bag or an old nylon knotted.