Anyone for glowing fish? "Night Pearls"

[nDorfin]

Clickety Click (http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2003/6/26/72442/4245)

Eish, I don't know where I stand, these poor inbred danios don't know the difference :(

http://www.mongabay.com/external/images/reuters_fishglow_399x450.jpg

[Wulfy]

This is just wrong.

[OrionGirl]

This topic has been brought up before, in GCC. I'm leaving this open, in hopes that the thread won't go down the same path. Please, folks, let's keep it decent.

[mogurnda]

Can I just cut and paste what I said before? Something like "no more wrong than distorting the body of a goldfish to make an oranda." Actually, it is probably a lot less pleasant to be all bent than to glow under blue light.

[29gallonsteve]

Imagine going through life where your body glowed. You would be a target during the night time for anything...

If this fish survives the process, it will be a visible target of all fish in the dark. Talk about stress! :(

[TKOS]

It must be awful hard to sleep at night when you glow. Do they also sell little sleeping masks for these poor fish.

[wetmanNY]

Those poor cnidarian genes! How do you suppose they feel, trapped in the soma of a vertebrate?

[OrionGirl]

The fish do not 'glow'--they fluoresce. Which means the color is only seen under certain lights, not in the darkness.

[TonyW]

Userfriendly on Night Pearls (http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030729) :D

On a more serious note, count me among those who disagree with this whole idea...

[125gJoe]

Welcome to Aquaria Central nDorfin - I like it, kinda like 'Hooked on Phonics' ring there.... :)

I don't like the practice of altering fish. :mad:

[JamisonBWolsh]

Originally posted by 80gJoe
Welcome to Aquaria Central nDorfin - I like it, kinda like 'Hooked on Phonics' ring there.... :)

I don't like the practice of altering fish. :mad:

We alter fish ALL the time by breeding them with other fish. MANY fish you see in the store are actually been altered in some way from its Natural species.

Of course, these fish (glow in the dark fish) has been genetically altered I think. THATS a whole different can of worms in itself.

Imagine, a Doctor injecting a virus into you. That virus (a carrier if you will) would be altered so it can add a few dna strands into your own dna. Your DNA and your children DNA would be forever changed. Now imagine if that change made you immune to the flu??? This is a distinct possibilty if society gives our scientists the option of experimenting with this.

Of course, on the other hand, many not so positive things can occur (the invention of a Virus that, if spread, can cause billions to die- which is a POSSIBILITY with Genetic engineering).

Personally, I believe we should go through with this. Of course, under the most strictest control.

[mogurnda]

I don't like the practice of altering fish. Um, Joe, you know your discus are mutants, right? They don't come that color in the wild.
I suppose we can now get into a debate about adding genes (by the way, your genome is packed with retroviruses and transposons that were inserted against your will), mutagenesis and selection for naturally-occurring polymorphisms. For example, mutants available in the trade (natural polymorphisms), such as color variants, occurred because of DNA damage that happened because of cosmic radiation, errors in DNA replication and so on. If one made the same mutation on purpose, would that be wrong?
People who work with flies (like me), worms, fish, or even mice have found GFP to be an excellent, innocuous, way of marking genes and chromosomes. If it affected behavior or physiology, we would be completely sunk.
My pets' normal behavior and appearance is interesting enough for me. I don't need glowing zebrafish or googly-eyed goldfish. But I have trouble coming up with a reason that selling glowing zebrafish is wrong.
Funny thing is that my green star polyps fluoresce naturally under actinic lights, and I think that's really neat. If I get a chance, I'll post a pic tomorrow.

[Tiger15]

Read this article:

29 July 2003
By Alice Hung, Reuters


TAIPEI, Taiwan ? When the world's first genetically
engineered fish, the glowing "Night
Pearl," hit the market two months ago, its Taiwan developer
hoped for a sea of profits.

But instead, Taikong Corp dived into a barage of criticism
from environmentalists who say
the 5 cm (2 inch) fluorescent green fish poses a threat to
the earth's ecosystem.

European environmentalists have been protesting against the
genetically engineered fish --
injected with a jellyfish gene -- for months, and the
Singapore government last week seized
hundreds of them being imported, said Fisher Lin, research
manager for Taikong, a
Taipei-based pet fish breeder turned biotech firm.

"It's difficult to make a genetic engineering breakthrough,
but it's even more difficult to
commercialise the product," said Lin.

Environmenalists say that if the formerly colourless fresh
water ricefish -- which now glows
green in the dark -- is released into nature, it could
wreak havoc on the ecosystem.

But Lin insists all the transgenic fish developed by
Taikong are environmentally safe, as they
are sterile.

The introduced gene comes from a natural marine organism
and the finished product -- the
glowing fish -- is merely protein and harmless to people or
other marine creatures, he said.

"The greatest worries about introducing any new GMO
(genetically modified organisms) are,
first of all, the impact on the ecosystem, and secondly,
whether it will cause a threat to
human bodies," said Lin.

"We still have high hopes for the transgenic fish and
believe they will sell. But we also know
people will have a lot of questions," he said.

Taikong has already launched a second transgenic swimmer, a
fluorescent purple zebra fish
that has been injected with a gene found in coral, and
hopes it and the ricefish would swim
into aquariums all over the world.

They also plan to introduce multicolour fluorescent pet
fish, including red, purple and blue.

Each transgenic fish costs T$600 (US$17), compared to T$20
for a colourless ricefish costs.

"It's very special," said 28-year-old Su Wen-ling, a
graduate student who saw the fish at a
biotech fair on Sunday.

"But fish is innocent. I don't think it's necessary to
apply genetic engineering on fish for
people's viewing pleasure. There are plenty of tropical
fish that are beautiful."

[blitzen25bm]

you can put them all into those little palm aquariums and get this stuff http://www.readysetglo.com/products.html for the substrate and have about 50 of those little laser things they sell.

[nDorfin]

Thanks for the welcome 80gJoe ;) Sorry it had to be such a sordid first post :/
I've been browsing the forums for years and never registered.

Anyway, I think theres a great difference between selective breeding and Artificial-gene breeding. I look down on this the same way we see injected colours on indian glassfish :(

[TonyW]

Originally posted by nDorfin
Anyway, I think theres a great difference between selective breeding and Artificial-gene breeding. I look down on this the same way we see injected colours on indian glassfish :(

Totally agree with you nDorfin. Selective breeding is one thing. ALTERING a species by introducing genes from another species is an entirely different matter.

And yes... to me it falls in the same realm as "painted" glassfish.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by mogurnda
Um, Joe, you know your discus are mutants, right? They don't come that color in the wild.
I suppose we can now get into a debate about adding genes ..... WOW...

So Discus have been subjects of anti-virul injections, and they are "mutants" ? I thought breeding was the result of amazing colors and perfect disc shapes...

I don't believe there's any comparison to the freaky green fish in this post as compared to my Discus!

But, thanks for the 'slam' .....

Hmmm - now all the fancy guppies and neon tetras, etc. out there are bad too??? Not IMO.. :mad:

[GobyGuy5]

I don't think the glowing fish will do very well, besides the whole fact that people don't like the entire concept, they just look unnatural we often setup biotope aquariums, where the whole Idea is to replicate a natural enviornment. I don't think people would much appreciate a Frankenfish biotope...:rolleyes:

[LMOUTHBASS]

who brought the world SARS

[OrionGirl]

What, the French? Glowing danios were developed for laboratory use by scientists in France. Not exactly the same as SARS--and I find that comparison a very poor one, indeed.

[mogurnda]

But, thanks for the 'slam' ..... Profuse apologies. That wasn't supposed to be a slam, just a reminder that your fish, are not wildtype. You should be proud, they are quite beautiful, but they carry mutations that heritably alter the presence and distribution of pigment. From my point of view as a geneticist, they are mutants.
IMO it's all a matter of degree. I can understand that people are more bothered by introducing genes between species than by selecting for naturally-occurring mutations. To me, the glowy fish are just a pointless gimmick, so I don't want them. My hope was to get across the idea that many of the strains of fish people keep are "unnatural." Doesn't make it wrong.

[Tiger15]

There are deep ocean fish that are florescent. These glowing Pearl are fun project for scientists. Having a few in your tank can certainly catch your visitors attention and become a subject of conversation. They can turn into biological night light or emergency light in power outage. I wonder if they are fertile. A tank full of florescent babies would be a phenomenal living art.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by mogurnda
Profuse apologies. That wasn't supposed to be a slam, just a reminder that your fish, are not wildtype. ........ .......... Accepted.

I prefer the "solid" colorations of Discus - in fact, from the little I know of the species (I don't follow up on the "wild" fish), the 9 bars that show on some of them are a sign of fear or distress. I've heard the wild Discus are harder to keep, and to me look "muddied in coloring".

The thread was about the "weird glowing greenies" in the picture - so I don't see how my fish could be so similar. So many mutants - so few "purebreds" ....or is that for dogs???

I hope I never see the "glowing greenies" sold.. I will have to 'express my opinions' to the store owner....

[mogurnda]

I don't see how my fish could be so similar I didn't really mean that your fish resembled the greenies. I was just responding to your comment about "altering" fish. Some would say that breeding for color alters fish. That's all. I should also point out that when I say "wild-type" I don't mean wild caught, which I agree are more finicky and prone to disease.

If you ever want to see great-looking wild-type discus, check out the display at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. The colors are subtle, but I wouldn't say washed out.

[TonyW]

Is anyone following the Userfriendly Night Pearl story? The Evil Green Fish rules. :D

[ChilDawg]

hehehe, WetmanNY is truly in da house with his comment!

We should just be thankful that this is not being done to humans...yet. Honestly, fish are quite different from us and we have a tendency to over-anthropomorphize them (as if there was more of an extreme than anthropomorphing...)

If they don't show obvious discomfort, and they live the long, full lives that regular ZDs would in the same conditions, I guess it's not a terrible thing, but one that bears watching closely...what species will they do next? :eek:

[CHINABOY1021]

oh man. get over it. GM is just part of life anyways. who doesnt eat GM foods? why dont you guys complain about blood parrots? ive seen those in green,blue,red,orange. why dont you guys complain about those "colored" skirt tetras. who's a Vegetarian here? no one eats animals?

[ChilDawg]

I eat GM veggies and meat and slam BPs and fish dyeing...I wonder if this isn't akin to fish dyeing, though...? What's the procedure for this experiment? Is it possible that it will cause secondary infection? Those are my ethical worries, and that takes precedence over the GM scare from my POV...

[vancetish]

thats a pretty ignorant remark about SARS. you cant blame people who were infected and died as a result of a disease originating in rodents and chickens, for creating the disease.

[wetmanNY]

Childawg it's the egg that is manipulated with inserted genes. Everything develops naturally from that point. And the gene, once it has been inserted into the genome, is inherited by a percentage of the transgenetic fishes' young.

(Glad you can see it from the cnidarian point-of-view!)

[tricksterpup]

Originally posted by ChilDawg
what species will they do next? :eek:
Hmmm.. Ferrets or Monkeys.. yeah..
I would love to own a glowing green monkey or ferret. ;)

All joking aside, I think that they would sell eventually. Not right now but in a few years it would catch on. I do not believe true aquarists and fish breeders will go out and support and buy them but the casual aquarist who jumps into the hobby and back out after about a year.
People will find them neat and pretty and will buy them. Its human nature. Its like the person buying an iguana or python thinking they are really neat and not realizing how BIG their pet will really get. Or my favorite was a Tiger suffering from Malnutrion because his owner thought she could convert the creature to being a vegetarian.
People will buy on impulse and that is a fact, why do you think aquababies lasted so long.

As for my personal feelings, i think it is a neat experiment that went really cool. But only at the science ends of things am I facinated about this, its something that should stay in the lab though.


jim

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by tricksterpup

..... But only at the science ends of things am I facinated about this, its something that should stay in the lab though....jim I agree to a point, but they can do something useful with this and help Micheal Jackson and his skin problem...

[tricksterpup]

Originally posted by 80gJoe
I agree to a point, but they can do something useful with this and help Micheal Jackson and his skin problem...

Wouldnt that really scare the world, Seeing A GLOWING GREEN MICHEAL JACKSON. oooo gives me the chills just thinking it.

jim

[ChilDawg]

Don't think that he (Jacko) hasn't considered it already!

WetmanNY, glad to hear that they aren't manipulating the genes once the fish is born...but that's a slippery slope to cover as I'm CaTholic...good thing we don't ever cover the beginning of piscine life in Sunday School!

Assuming that this is beneficial to mankind in some way, I'm all for it, but designer GM fish don't sound like something that I'll support...at least until they sting me repeatedly and force me to do their bidding!

[Stealth Dog]

Hi, all,

The rabbit world was in an uproar a while ago when an artist turned out "Alba", a rabbit that glows green under a black light...

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/rabbit000918.html

SD

*back into lurk mode*

[ChilDawg]

SD, that was less than stealthy!!! :)

Yeah, the mice with ears on them annoy a lot of people, too...we'll just have to hope that nobody does this to humans, though, if they do, we'll see it coming! (hehehe, little joke.)

[mogurnda]

Just wondering, has anyone seen him under blue light? It may be too late already.

[ChilDawg]

I haven't really followed him that closely with different types of light...might prove to be a big mistake on my part!

(Did Eiffel65 or whatever know something we didn't when they sang "Blue"?)

[DarkTetra]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=1&u=/nm/20031121/sc_nm/science_glofish_dc

Just saw this on Yahoo news.

[wengdragon]

As far as i know (base on the aqua forum i join in Taiwan) some folks back in taiwan who really into this fish keeping hobby (and I) don't like this fish at all. Why? First it looks more like a business move to make an $.60 Medaka to "worth" $17, not even mention the accessory AZoo made post by blitzen25bm...

Second these thing are tough, they can live in both saltwater and freshwater(bse on the offical website and one person who did try to put it in saltwater) I think that just become an unfair edge to the wild fish

So just like the "paint injected" glass fish, blood parrots and skirt tetras, they are unacceptable

I also think this whole issue is not just we should alter the DNA of a fish or not, it is more about the unresponsible (or just don't care)keeper who might throw the fish into the pond or lake or river

ps the name of the fish is fluorescent TK-1 Night Pearls....
here is the website
http://www.azoo.com.tw/

[fishfrenze]

Mogurnda,
You say you work with GFP...I'm interested in where you work--a university, company?? I'm very interested in molecular biology (hope to work in biotech after grad school) and have worked in a lab that uses GFP in plants to study the location of certain proteins. I think it is very useful in that application, however, I agree with you...this is a gimmicky thing, which has taken something that has been used in important lab research for years and turned it into a useless product. This is why genetic engineering gets a bad rap. People produce these GE plants/animals that have no purpose other than money, money, money. Most people never get the chance to see the REAL benefits of GE. I still can't help being fascinated by the process and the end products though!

Melanie