MY APOLOGIES TO THE FORUM AND IT'S MEMBERS.

[mcsassy]

The past couple days I have been volleyballing about my tank population about how it is overstocked and how I don't want to do anything and I have been fighting it. Well this is probably because I have felt like people have been telling me I need to give up my children. I bet it is the same feeling. I have a strong tie with all my fish and they all have their own names, personalities, homes, rituals and funny stories that I share with my friends and family. Anyways I want to say sorry for lashing out and letting my emotions get the best of me and I want to ask for your help on who I should be taking out of the tank and returning to the LFS. :headshake2:

Here is the fish list.

*ALL JUVENILES*

1 blue tang
1 kole tang
3 firefish
1 mandarin goby
1 banded goby
2 diamond gobies
1 red spotted blenny
2 oscellaris clowns
1 blue spot puffer
1 flame angel
1 green wrasse
1 tamarin wrasse
2 cleaner shrimps
1 condy anemone
1 sand sifting star
1 lemon peel mimic tang (coming soon)

My number one priorities are the tangs, the pigmy angel, the mandarin goby, diamond gobies, clowns, puffer and green wrasse.

Suggestions? Ideas? This is very hard on me...

[clown-lover]

I want to preface this by stating these are my opinions. Take them for what you will. But they are based on two years of research and tons of reading. And what knowledge I do have is on fish that I have researched for a community tank, not an aggressives tank.


The past couple days I have been volleyballing about my tank population about how it is overstocked and how I don't want to do anything and I have been fighting it. Well this is probably because I have felt like people have been telling me I need to give up my children. I bet it is the same feeling. I have a strong tie with all my fish and they all have their own names, personalities, homes, rituals and funny stories that I share with my friends and family. Anyways I want to say sorry for lashing out and letting my emotions get the best of me and I want to ask for your help on who I should be taking out of the tank and returning to the LFS. :headshake2:

Here is the fish list.

*ALL JUVENILES*

1 blue tang
My information states they need at least a 100 gallon tank, but with my experiences with these fish they need a minimum of a 6' tank so they can swim. They are the owners of their world and if you really have watched an adult swim they swim for speed. I personally feel it is cruel to keep an adult in anything less than an 8' tank. Grows to be 14 inches. At a minimum they should be given 70 gallons to claim as their own.
1 kole tang
Same thing as above. These fish grow to be 8 inches long at best IMO they require at least 40+ gallons to claim as their own.
3 firefish - realize that these may fight amongst themselves unless bonded. A buddy had several of these and the most dominant one picked on the other two until one died and the other decided the carpet was safer. Size wise you are ok so you may be ok you may not.
1 mandarin goby - honesly with your system I am afraid this one is going to die or your going to go broke buying pods. According to my readings they eat 1 pod every 5 to 10 seconds. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt that means they are eating a minimum of 5000 to 7000 pods a day. Size of your tank is fine for this fish but I personally don't suggest this fish until you have a system of a year or better, or you have planned ahead and really stocked pods like I did before I bought my scooter.
1 banded goby - should be fine
2 diamond gobies - should be fine but since these are filter feeders your probably going to have to put food on the substrate for them to sift until your sand bed gets rich enough with life to sustain them. This is going to be at least 6 to 9 months out and since you already have them probably longer.
1 red spotted blenny - Like the mandarin they are a pod eater. If you have gotten them to eat cyclops-eze great but realistically their diet is pods.
2 oscellaris clowns - should be fine
1 blue spot puffer - I have done no research on this fish
1 flame angel - fine
1 green wrasse - can be a jumper, should be in a slightly longer tank.. I haven't done a ton of research on this one only some cursitory looking.
1 tamarin wrasse - have really only done a hmmm on this fish.
2 cleaner shrimps - fine
1 condy anemone - 'nems are like mandarins.. They really should only go in established marine systems. But if you have the lighting and really pay attention to it on a daily basis it should be able to make it. Please realize that these normally don't host clowns.
1 sand sifting star - fine
1 lemon peel mimic tang (coming soon) - have done no research

My number one priorities are the tangs, the pigmy angel, the mandarin goby, diamond gobies, clowns, puffer and green wrasse.

Suggestions? Ideas? This is very hard on me...

[mcsassy]

In response to what clown-lover said above,

The diamond gobies eat brine and frozen omnivore medly when i feed the tank, the mandarin goby stocks up on brine and frozen omnivore medly when i feed the tank (eats all the brine and mysis that settles to the floor), the blenny eats brine and frozen omnivore medly, the condylactis seems to be the happiest thing on earth...i feed it everyday, the firefish are always banded together and live in the same place under my flat rock on the substrate. As for the tangs, the kole tang eats only brine and omnivore medly, the blue tang eats red macro algae, the puffer eats the red macro only, the green wrasse seems to be quite happy and plays with my kole a lot...they are friends for unknown reasons...

As for what to get rid of....

The firefish would be fine to take out because nobody has really established a relationship with them, the tamarin wrasse only hides and i can see his tail from under the tank...BORING...he can go back, the condylactis can go back because i want to get a magnificent for the clowns one day and the rest are all really hard to give up.

What/how many should I give up? If i give up the 3 firefish and the tamarin will that be a lot better or do I need to give up more? If so, what?

[clown-lover]

Please don't take this as me being mean or bashing you.. I am honestly trying to help. But seriously if you want to keep the tangs upgrade the tank to a size an length that will need when they are adults. While they are currently juveniles they won't be for long. They will outgrow your tank and will eventually be like letting a dog live in its own excrement and on a leash that is to short for it to get any exercise, simply put.. cruel and unusual punishment. But if you don't believe me go ask one of the leading researchers in this industry on wetwebmedia and see what he tells you. I promise he'll tell you that they need larger quarters. Or better yet ask Niko (atnixon) he is one of the guys that helps him on his website.

Its great that they are all eating, but eating doesn't mean a healthy or happy environment honestly. You are looking at the size of what the fish are now and not what they will be when they are adults. You are looking at parameters of your tank which is all well and good but honestly you are bound for a crash if I have ever seen one coming. If you love your fish like you say you do then you are going to do the research that is necessary to figure out what the needs of those fish are and what you are going to have to do to maintain them in a lifestyle in which they can at least be somewhat comfortable for the time they have on this earth.

Out of all of the fish that I have purchased to this point I've lost two.. Once a pygmy cherub angel that disappeared within three days of purchase. Actually on the third day and I literally ripped my tank apart looking for that fish. The second was one of my clowns which I personally love more than any of the other fish in my tank because I can hand feed them. My male went through my overflow and into my sump and didn't make it. I went and bought all new test kits because the ones I had said everything was fine but to me my water couldn't have been fine because he died. I litterally morned for days and my GF thought I was nuts. I have given away a third because I chanced that my tank was large enough when it met the "minimum" requirements for that fish (a Lyretail Anthias) but he was not happy. In any way shape or form.

I don't expect anyone to have the fervor for their fish the way I do, but the responsibility of keeping fish is no less of a responsibility than keeping a dog or having children. All must be provided with what they need to survive, be happy and healthy.

So honestly what I suggest is that you go do the leg work. Do the research, buy the books and see where that takes you. If you can honestly type into this forum after reading a sizable amount of material by leading researchers in this industry on how to take care of your tanks, your fish and your livestock that what you are currently doing for housing is the best for those fish I'll never harp on you again.

[mcsassy]

How long does it take for the tangs to reach adulthood? The size of my tank I know is the bare minimum for the tangs adult sizes. I thought it takes upwards of 5 years from what people have told me...have I been mislead? The tank I have is the maximum possible that could fit in my room next to my bed...I do not have a big room by any means and there is no room in the apartment for a bigger tank...I did the best I could.

[mandy21]

If you can't upgrade (as I thought you said you were going to do), I honestly think the tangs should be going to a proper home now, not when they get so big and are fighting each other for space.

[clown-lover]

How long does it take for the tangs to reach adulthood? The size of my tank I know is the bare minimum for the tangs adult sizes. I thought it takes upwards of 5 years from what people have told me...have I been mislead? The tank I have is the maximum possible that could fit in my room next to my bed...I do not have a big room by any means and there is no room in the apartment for a bigger tank...I did the best I could.

Actually it is probably more like 2 years for them to reach close to their adult size with minimal growth for the last three years. Then you also have to look at that they aren't competing for food as much as they are in the wild, aren't swimming as much as they are in the wild so they aren't using the vital resources like they would in the wild. So they are going to grow bigger, faster. And tangs are "messy" eaters. They on their own part are going to be huge to the bio-load of your tank. You may not see it now because they are probably the size of a quarter. Wait a few months you'll see your water quality plummet and when it happens its going to happen fast.

And honestly I'm not saying that you haven't done the best you could. But realistically like I said earlier keeping these fish is a dedication to learning what it is going to take to keep them. While there are many knowledgeable people on this forum and we are more than willing to answer questions, confirm things from our own research, you should still be doing your own reading and research to ensure optimal health.

Do I think that you could probably keep all of those fish in that tank for a year.. maybe a little longer.. You bet. Do I think that as long as you are willing to give them to a good home if you cannot afford the home that they are going to need within the next year to two years that they are going to need will you be doing the best for them.. Yep.. Do I think you probably should completely quit stocking your tank and get your ICK under control since Tangs are more susceptible to that disease than most other fish.. Yep.. Do I think that you should thin out some of your fish until the time comes when it is time for either you to upgrade or remove them to a larger system.. Yep.

I won't tell you specifically what fish to remove. Thats your job as a responsible marine aquarist to decide.

[clown-lover]

To add to the above - here is a linky that will give you a better idea about tangs/sturgeonfishes http://www.wetwebmedia.com/besttgsreefs.htm but I suggest you scour that site and many others out there learning about your fish. Like I said I understand you wanting to keep them but as Grins said in one post it is much easier to bend the rules when you know the rules. Also if you haven't picked up Robert Fenners book yet I suggest you get that one along with others out there about responsible reef keeping. In fact if you ask Grins really nice I know she has a list of books that you should probably read and would probably be happy to share with you. If you can't afford them use the library.

[fsn77]

Here's what I would suggest and my reasoning why...

Remove the condy anemone -- condy anemones are not natural hosts for A. ocellaris clownfish (if your clowns are captive bred / tank raised, it's likely they've never seen an anemone before)
Remove the mandarin and red spot blenny (if red spot blenny = red scooter blenny = a type a mandarin) -- these fish are best kept by experienced marine aquarists and typically require a lot of attention for long term survival
Remove the puffer -- the puffer will pretty much eat anything meaty it can fit in it's mouth, including any shrimp, snails, or hermit crabs you may currently have or want to have in the future
Pick one tang to keep and return the other -- mixing tangs in a smaller tank is far from ideal (similarly, I wouldn't recommend adding the lemonpeel mimic)
If two of the firefish seem to pair up, remove the third -- keeping the third will likely only result in its death by the hand of the other two

That is where I'd start. Depending on the aquascaping and filtration in your tank, you may need to remove more, but those are some of what I would consider the bigger issues to focus on.

These might be difficult decisions to make, but poor choices made now will only lead to incredibly time consuming issues down the road. Please keep us posted on what you decide and how things continue to develop.

[mcsassy]

fsn77,

Ok i will remove the anemone, the blenny is not a scooter...here is a picture actually from my LFS's website - http://www.vividaquariums.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=01-1610 and he has a special hole in one of the LR that is gutted PERFECTLY to fit his entire body so all you see is his head poke out = ) how can you give THAT sight up? , my gf will tear my head off if i return the mandarin...he eats a lot of brine and stuff...isn't that sufficient? ALso i see a lot of pods in my tank too especially a huge colony on the glass that is always multiplying. As for the puffer...he doesn't think twice about the sight of meaty foods...i have tried EVERYTHING with him...the ONLY thing he touches is red macro algae...as for my kole tang the only thing he touches is meaty foods...go figure...HAH! The firefish i think can go because they just seem to "stand" around and get in active fish swimming lanes for no reason and then run and hide everytime something mildy startling happens. The tamarin wrasse JUST came out this morning after 2 weeks in the sand actually and he is grazing all the LR like he has never seen it in his life.

Well as of now the fish seem to have no issues at all with eachother...they just swim by eachother, swim next to eachother, have their own "houses" but ya i always thought what would happen when my tangs got bigger and they couldn't fit into their "houses" anymore...that would be a very sad sight...so i have thought about that since day one but i figured i would be in a much better financial state by then because i will be out of college and a few years into my career by then....well i have deffinitely got some figuring out to do...i will keep you all posted.

[Reefscape]

I think its really great that you've decided to take a small step backwards and having a good assessment of the fish situation in the tank...Removing a fish/inhabitant from our aquarium, i think, is one of the hardest decisions that we have to make as fishkeepers...Although, forward thinking, its probably one of the best to make...

There has been some great feedback from members here about what they think should be kept / removed and why they think as such...Reckoning time i suppose for you mate. Of course, the decisions you make, will be ultimatly yours as only you can do that, BUT, we are all here to help you through sorting it out and helping out anywhere we can....

Good Deal :)

Niko

[saltydunc]

if you've got your heart on the tangs i would go for keeping the 2 tangs and maybe the clowns and trade the rest....if the tangs are small and grow together the aggression shouldn't be too bad by the time their adult......i keep 3 tangs in a 100g which ive set up with plenty swimming space by keeping the tank quite open...Tangs in my opinion are by far the best marine fish and are the reason i swapped from discus keeping to marines..but in saying that i had to spend some serious cash in providing them a large enough tank and i filter heavily aswell as live rock and skimmer.....72g is squeeze for your 2 tangs but if their your favourites its worth a try and if their not happy later you can always trade one...:)

[FtwayneFish]

Im not salty yet, but learning by reading stuff like this. I wish you the best of luck.

[SHK_ATK]

right now I think the biggest fish that I have is an 8 or 9" naso streamer tang w/ my vlamigii comming a close 2nd. In due time im pretty sure I will either have to

A. get a larger tank than what I have now.
B. give em up.

I love my tangs they are very unique w/ a TON of personallity. But to go off what some people have said they are messy eaters and they do provide a lot of waste. That being said 2 juvies might not be in issue at this point, but once they are bigger I hope you do upgrade they look so gracefull once they have some good amount of swimming room.

[mcsassy]

Ya the only fish i have that swim in "open water" are the tangs, the clowns, the puffer, the flame angel and the green wrasse. Everything else is either hanging out on the substrate or in a cave or hole or sliding along the rocks all the time (mandarin is a rock slider...always picking away)

As for the non swimmers, the diamond gobies are part of my clean up crew as they work the sand bed like maniacs, the banded goby is there for eating everyone's food out of their mouths and being a fat lazy staring glob, the blenny is just a funny goof that doesn't do much but "sun bathe" and hang out in his hole, the tamarin wrasse just came out today after 2 weeks of seclusion but the second i mentioned his name i turned around and he was gone again so he can go because hes a chicken, the firefish can go because they do indeed take up open swimming space...they just kind of float around and do nothing until its feeding time. What do you guys think so far?

[mcsassy]

Saltydunc,

What tangs do you have? By your picture I see a powder blue. What else is there though?

[saltydunc]

mcsassy, my tangs are an orange shoulder ,yellow and the powder blue.....they all get along fine.....i also have 1 pec clown used to be a pair but the female jumped, 1 clarki clown which hosts my condi anemone, 1 blue chromis used to be 3 but the biggest one killed the other two and a molly miller blenny.

[gatotsu77]

Ya the only fish i have that swim in "open water" are the tangs, the clowns, the puffer, the flame angel and the green wrasse. Everything else is either hanging out on the substrate or in a cave or hole or sliding along the rocks all the time (mandarin is a rock slider...always picking away)

As for the non swimmers, the diamond gobies are part of my clean up crew as they work the sand bed like maniacs, the banded goby is there for eating everyone's food out of their mouths and being a fat lazy staring glob, the blenny is just a funny goof that doesn't do much but "sun bathe" and hang out in his hole, the tamarin wrasse just came out today after 2 weeks of seclusion but the second i mentioned his name i turned around and he was gone again so he can go because hes a chicken, the firefish can go because they do indeed take up open swimming space...they just kind of float around and do nothing until its feeding time. What do you guys think so far?

Its a start, but removing 3 small fish from your list is only a start IMO. I believe the blue tang is going to get far too large for your tank, and the kole tang likely will too, though it will stay smaller. If you've got your heart set on keeping tangs, keep the kole, and take the blue back. Though your GF might be upset about the mandarin, I'd recommend taking it back too. The puffer may be "innocent" for now, but given time, I believe it will cause a lot of issues with your tank, and would remove him too. I can't say either way on the flame angel, though I believe they are known for picking at/eating coral. Please remember, this is a 72g BOWFRONT... those tanks don't have very much swimming room, especially once the tank has LR in it. It may look spacious for the time being, but for fish like tangs which really need a LOT of swimming space, a 72g bowfront really isn't sufficient. (these are all my OPINIONS, you're welcome to reject any and all, I'm just giving my 2 cents)


I have had professionals of the aquaria business for years help me and complement me on my tank...everyone has different experiences with different fish and different populations. I have put stuff in, had things die and had to take things out because of agression issues...I have come a very long way in a very short time and have gotten quite a peacefull, colorful, comfortable tank out of it.

Fish store owners are in the business to make money. They will tell you 12 discus, 6 clown loaches, 25 cardinal tetras, 6 harlequin tetras, 10 corydoras and a handful of other small schooling fish are fine in a 55g tank, if it gets them a SALE. They want to promote good relations with their customers, but they also want to bring home the bacon. Keeping fish as a hobby is VERY different than keeping fish to make money... money really screws with perspective. Also remember, your tank is VERY young... barely established and already overstocked. (even as juvies, let alone adults) The fact that you've managed to start, cycle, stock, have die off, and restock in 6 weeks is really pushing the idea that you're going WAY too fast. As Grins and other members have mentioned on the boards in other threads, the ONLY things that happen FAST in a reef tank are BAD THINGS. Ok.... I'm done with my rant, I'll step off the soapbox now. </rant>

[mcsassy]

Ya it sucks for now...hopefully when we move I will get everything situated and get the fish that don't belong where they do belong...it should be some time in the next few months I believe.

[gatotsu77]

Glad to hear it. :) I bet your fish will be extatic when they get to hang out in the big tank too. I know that it was just recently mentioned, so plans will not be final, but what size tank do you think your parents are looking into getting? See if you can convince them to get a 200+ gallon tank, and I bet you'll notice a HUGE difference in your tang's personality. :)

[mcsassy]

Ya first the house and then the tank haha. Prices out here in LA are tremendously insensible...but ya it will be a nice big one...as they say go big or go home...although I would like a home to have to go to...HAH! The never ending loop of irony.

[gatotsu77]

I know the feeling... I've lived in Cali for 8 years now. Prices are simply insane... $1100ish a month for a studio apartment, and that's nowhere near the beach. That's not even in Irvine either... oh goodness... Irvine... If you don't mind my asking, what school do you attend?

[mcsassy]

the blue tang is a lot better...no more ich reappearance...now i think i may do a hypo salinity just to be safe.