Whats going on with my Nitrates?! :(

[bellazeus]

I have a 36 gallon tank that is seriously understocked... it has ONE green barb .. I do 30% water changes a week... Three weeks ago I completely changed the gravel in it. It has a Jebo 815 filter in it.
I must admit even tho Ive always had fish Ive never tested for anything and never had much trouble. But since I want to start getting more into the hobby Ive started trying to understand whats going on in there.
So I tested it today and even tho the test kit colours I got are really hard to read the increments (ive seen other people on here have trouble with the same kit ) its at least over 20!!
So I thought something was odd... so I tested my tap water thinking that since its tank water something might be going on in there.. but it looks pretty close to 0... so then I tested my 10 gallon.. which has one beta.. but only a little under gravel filter.. and its only around 5!
Can anyone tell me why this would be ?!

[Lupin]

What is your feeding schedule? 5 and 20 are not something to worry about unless nitrates exceeded beyond 40 ppm.

[bellazeus]

He gets fed twice a day.. two or three little pellets.. and he eats them all..

I know 5 is nothing to worry about but it surprised me.. as I dont clean that tank anywhere near as much and feed more... and it doesnt have as good filtration.

I would have thought that one would be higher. I expected the 36 gallon to have barely any nitrate reading at all being so understocked and having that size filter on it. And its at Least 20.. but could be higher than 40.. that chart is really hard to read ..I showed it to three people and no one could pick which reading above 20 it was.

[Lupin]

Oh. What test kit did you use? Forgot to include this one.

[Rbishop]

Did you test for ammonia and nitrites?

[kay-bee]

...I expected the 36 gallon to have barely any nitrate reading at all being so understocked and having that size filter on it...

The size of the filter has nothing to do with achieving lower or diminished nitrate readings. If anything, a larger filter would be more efficient at producing more nitrates (which isn't bad, since higher nitrates are better than detectable ammonia and nitrite).

Ammonia is produced constantly (and in a fully cycled tank is instantly converted to nitrite and nitrate, so one can say that nitrate is being produced constantly).

Immediately AFTER your next water change, test nitrates. Then test again immediately BEFORE your water change after that. Subtracting the first reading from the second reading will reveal how much nitrate is being produced in a week, and you can gauge whether or not your water change percentage is sufficient.

So as an example if after a 30% water change nitrate are 15ppm and before the next water change they've risen to 30ppm, then the tank is producing roughly 2ppm of nitrate per day (15ppm a week). A 30% water change will reduce 30ppm nitrite to 21ppm (indicating that 30% water changes isn't sufficient to keep nitrates in check since nitrates were previously 15ppm following a water change). Based on this scenario, nitrates will gradually increase despite the water changes (if these figures are constant, nitrates will increase to about 36ppm prior to the next water change (and reduced to 25ppm after it, etc, indicating a steady rise).

Additionally, while larger waste particles are collected by the filter media, the waste is still in the system, per se. This waste will eventually decompose (contributing more ammonia the longer it is in the system, which will mean more nitrate). How often is your filter media changed out?

I'm not sure how soon or after water changes you have tested for nitrates, but if your nitrates are constantly at 20ppm (which isn't bad since it's generally recommended to maintain them below 40ppm), then your weekly 30% is keeping nitrates in check (which also isn't bad).

[blasterman_]

Additionally, while larger waste particles are collected by the filter media, the waste is still in the system, per se. This waste will eventually decompose (contributing more ammonia the longer it is in the system, which will mean more nitrate). How often is your filter media changed out?


Which is why I'm a furious opponent of using cannisters as main line tank filters. There is a conceptual belief that high tech filters like this remove deitrus from the tank when in fact all they are doing is moving the stuff to a different location and then putting an oxygen rich water current on it that actually increases decomposition rates. If you use a mechanical filter, then it need to be changed very frequently to do what it is supposed to do.

[Cory Keeper]

while canister filters may just "move" dirt, it still allows us to be able to remove it. And the rate of decomp is low, yes it does decompose, it may add to the nitrates a little (maybe 2 ppm if that every two weeks?) and if you maintain your filter like your supposed to, you shouldn't have to worry about it at all.

Canister filters may not remove dirt from the tank, but it still allows you to remove it when you clean your filter media. Its no different than a power filter.

Oh, btw Blast, if you have a planted tank, how are canisters bad? I can only think this would be a good thing. If they really are the nitrate factories you and others say they are, just means cheaper in the long run because you wouldn't have to buy nitrates (or as much of them).

[kay-bee]

As long as they're maintained and cleaned regularly I think both power filters and canisters work well. Though I do agree canisters seem to better supplemental filters than primary ones (I run a combination of both types on my large tanks).

Canisters CAN remove 'dirt' (or waste particles) depending on how you customize the mechanical filter media. I load my with 100, 50, and 25 micron filter pads in addition to the sponges which came with the units.

[Star_Rider]

Which is why I'm a furious opponent of using cannisters as main line tank filters. There is a conceptual belief that high tech filters like this remove deitrus from the tank when in fact all they are doing is moving the stuff to a different location and then putting an oxygen rich water current on it that actually increases decomposition rates. If you use a mechanical filter, then it need to be changed very frequently to do what it is supposed to do.
I am curious as to thee reasoning to this theory.
can you elaborate?

since in fw the idea is to have good flow rate to the filter. moving the waste to the filter and establishing a good bacteria colony(aerobic bacteria) that consume ammonia and nitrites.
during normal maintenance the floss or filter is rinsed to remove excess build up of detritus. since fw tanks do not support bacteria that reduce nitrates.

[Cory Keeper]

I think star, his reasoning is he is so afraid of change and nitrates. from what I've gathered from his posts, the only acceptable filter is a UGF. Why he is so deathly afraid of nitrates is beyond me.

And if this is the case blast, then why don't we all abandon our filters and put a powerhead in our tank, lets see just how long our fish last, I'm betting 2 weeks to a month.

[Star_Rider]

I think star, his reasoning is he is so afraid of change and nitrates. from what I've gathered from his posts, the only acceptable filter is a UGF. Why he is so deathly afraid of nitrates is beyond me.

And if this is the case blast, then why don't we all abandon our filters and put a powerhead in our tank, lets see just how long our fish last, I'm betting 2 weeks to a month.
I don't know I was just curious as to the reasoning behind it.
UGF filters are fine..you stil have to remove detritus tho or run the risk of nitrate buildup.
the use of a mechanical filter simply makes it easier to remove the detritus.
it should not matter where the detritus is..as long as you remove it.

[bellazeus]

Oh. What test kit did you use? Forgot to include this one.

Its the API nitrate test kit! :)

Ammonia.... 0 or close to it.. i so suck at reading those things.. but def under.25..

Nitrite... between 0 and .05... again.. I suck :)

[bellazeus]

The size of the filter has nothing to do with achieving lower or diminished nitrate readings. If anything, a larger filter would be more efficient at producing more nitrates (which isn't bad, since higher nitrates are better than detectable ammonia and nitrite).

thanks for clearing that up for me :)


So as an example if after a 30% water change nitrate are 15ppm and before the next water change they've risen to 30ppm, then the tank is producing roughly 2ppm of nitrate per day (15ppm a week). A 30% water change will reduce 30ppm nitrite to 21ppm (indicating that 30% water changes isn't sufficient to keep nitrates in check since nitrates were previously 15ppm following a water change). Based on this scenario, nitrates will gradually increase despite the water changes (if these figures are constant, nitrates will increase to about 36ppm prior to the next water change (and reduced to 25ppm after it, etc, indicating a steady rise).

Ok thanks.. that explains it really well.. I just dont understand how you guys get such accurate readings.. there must be test kits out there that i havnt seen cos I cant even get an accurate reading to the 10ppm.


Additionally, while larger waste particles are collected by the filter media, the waste is still in the system, per se. This waste will eventually decompose (contributing more ammonia the longer it is in the system, which will mean more nitrate). How often is your filter media changed out?

Well thats an arguing factor at the moment.. my BF thinks you should never ever clean out filter media,.. he reckons it would kill all the good bacteria. I try and tell him I think we should at least clean the sponges... but since its his tank I dont like to argue.

How often should they be clean out ? and does that mean cleaning everything ? We have loose charcoal? as well as the biomedia tubes.

[leocom2000]

Back when I used canester filters, I used to just rinse the filter media in warm tap water every week. It worked for me. No mini cycles. I don't think you can kill all the bacteria by just rinsing the filters. However, I did it a couple days after water changes, just in case.

[Cory Keeper]

Bellaz, if your filter comes with a bio-filter (such as ceramic rings, bio-balls or the stars if its a rena) you wouldn't kill the good bacteria. you can't kill the good bacteria by simply rinsing it in tank water, now if you use tap water that is treated with chlorine/chlorimines then yes you can.

As far as acuracy concerning the nitrate test kits, don't worry about it. There are more accurate kits out there, but for our needs, its really not needed.

[kay-bee]

Well thats an arguing factor at the moment.. my BF thinks you should never ever clean out filter media,.. he reckons it would kill all the good bacteria. I try and tell him I think we should at least clean the sponges... but since its his tank I dont like to argue. How often should they be clean out ? and does that mean cleaning everything ? We have loose charcoal? as well as the biomedia tubes.

In regards to eliminating "all" the good bacteria, it will depend. The beneficial bacteria colonizes on all surface areas of the aquarium (to include the filter, filter media, substrate surface, decorations and even sides of glass, etc).

Biological filter media typically has an extraordinary amount of surface area available compared to the other available area in the tank, so much, but not all, of the bacteria will be there.

Methods to reduce the probability of wiping out a good chunk of the bacteria during routine filter cleaning or maintenance include having some sort of filter redundancy in place and/or cleaning with tank water. Redundancy can mean additional biofilter media or even multiple filters on a tank. Also when several biological medias are present (filter sponge, ceremic noodles, multiple filter cartridges, etc), alternating cleaning/replacement will prevent losing the tank's cycle.

The periodicity of cleaning the media will vary from tank to tank (since each bioload is different). The periodicity of cleaning out the entire filter is also variable. The effectiveness of chemical media such as carbon diminishes overtime as the media becomes expended (and should be replaced regularly, every 2-4 weeks at most, depending on what it's pulling out of the water).

[bellazeus]

The periodicity of cleaning the media will vary from tank to tank (since each bioload is different). The periodicity of cleaning out the entire filter is also variable. The effectiveness of chemical media such as carbon diminishes overtime as the media becomes expended (and should be replaced regularly, every 2-4 weeks at most, depending on what it's pulling out of the water).

:eek3: ours is at least 2 years old..i dont think he has ever changed the carbon!!

Ive finally managed to get the nitrates down to under 20... now it just remains to try and raise the ph a little.
thanks heaps!!!

[Cory Keeper]

Bell, what Kay failed to mention is that carbon is more often that not, not needed. Spent carbon also makes a wonderful home to your good bacteria.

Yes, at the moment I am running carbon, however this is only to remove tannins being leached from my driftwood. I went a good few months of not running carbon, only problem I had was the blasted tannins, oh and I'll let you in on something, the carbon that came with the filter did nothing to help combat them either.