Let's talk mechanical vs bio filtration...

[wiEngineer]

I originally purchased my 55g tank in a package witha Millennium 3000 HOB filter. I hate this filter due to problems with water bypass.

I purchased a Filstar XP3 canister filter to replace the M3k and have been very happy with it (there's an issue with air getting into the canister, but its not relevant to this thread).

About 2 weeks ago, I removed the M3K filter after having the XP3 cycle for about two months. It is filled with ceramic tubes, crushed lava rock, and some nylon sponges for media with a nylon pre-filter sponge over the intake (my thinking was that the XP3 would become a good biological filter).

Within about a week of removing the M3K, I started to notice how "cruddy" my water was getting. Too much fish poo floating around for example. A water test showed Ammonia and Nitrites at 0 zero, so the XP3 was working well, just not sucking up the gunk.

My thinking at that point was that the XP3 wasn't providing enough mechanical filtration so I reattached the M3K filter and within about 12 hours things had greatly cleared up. Unfortunately, I'm still using that craptacular HOB filter I hate.

So, I'm looking for some thoughts here. I've read that my idea of using the canister as a biological filter may not be sound (no air, no light) and instead I could outfit it as the mechanical filter (remove the pre-filter, maybe re-arrange the media, etc), then mate it with something like an Aquaclear 300/500 HOB or some kind of a bio-wheel HOB and let that become the bio-filter.

One of my primary goals here, however, is QUIET. Even the gentle trickle of my M3K gets on my nerves after a while which was my primary reason for going to a canister (tank is in living room). However, I also don't want a tank that is unhealthy without a good HOB providing counterpoint to the canister.

Regrettably, building a wet/dry sump for this tank isn't an option.

Any thoughts here? I didn't post this in DiY/Product review because I'm trying not to focus on specific product, but more in approaches I could take.

[Richer]

IMHO, canisters work best as biological filters. None of my canisters match up to any of my Aquaclears in terms of mechanical filtration (comparing appropriate sizes of course). IME, its flow rate that determines how well a filter will do in terms of mechanical filtration.
For example, my Eheim 2026 canister will never compare to my aquaclear 500 in terms of mechanical filtration... just based on the fact that my aquaclear has a high flow rate than the canister. However, my aquaclear 500 will never compare to the canister in terms of biological filtration because quite frankly, that filter has several times more bio capacity than the HOB. IMHO, keep the pre-filter on your canister and leave it as a biological filter. If you don't like your current HOB, get another one. Aquaclears are good for mechanical filtration. Stick in one of those aquaclear sponges and some filterfloss and you got yourself a pretty effective mechanical filter.

HTH
-Richer

[Darkangel]

Yep I have a thought for you. Leave the cannister as your bio filter and put a power head or two with the Hagen quickfilters for your mechanical.

[MP]

Using a canister as a mechanical filter is not a good idea. Mainly, because servicing canisters is not the easiest task. And you need to clean your mechanical filters often enough not to allow the particles to decompose.

Using them for biofiltration only is a very good and sound idea, IMO. That's how I use all my canisters. You can read a very good article on the subject here: http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cannister.html

As for the mechanical filtration, I'd, personally, go for a H.O.T. Magnum for your tank size. It's very effective, reliable and versatile.
Some people like internal filters for the job. I hate internals (too awkward to service, and they look ugly), but this is my personal opinion.

[ewok]

i sort of think of my fluval as a biological filter but it does mechanical too. i had an abortive attempt at live plants and i have alot of things that eat them so i had alot of leaves that got stuck to the un-prefitered intake. some got sucked in too i'm sure. with the fluval i really don't think it's a big issue to split it open and clean the main sponges. i have no idea how filstar works with this....... i also tried to pre-filter my fluval with a nylon when i had fry nearby and noticed it restricted quite rapidly, even to the point it was literally crushing the screen with vacuum. you would think the nylons would just stretch somewhat as they restricted and allow the water to pass...... i also noticed at that time that i was picking up some air in the impeller because the pump was literally spinning too fast and churning the inadequate water supply so hard as to make bubbles..... i also noticed crud accumuating on that end of the tank.

my conclusion? skip the pre-filter if at all possible. what is happening to you is sounding alot like my experience.

i would also suggest you add more topwater filtration with another hob, but thats just me personally. i'm not sure how well aq's do for noise, but i would definately buy one. personally i use emperors tho and the noise usually isn't noticed........

top water filters would have to work better mechanically i would think because it is a much shorter run and alot less restricted for larger waste particles to get sucked in. by extension you would think they would have a much better turnover rate........

i think they both have their place in a well running tank and like to have one of each.

sorry if this is rambling...........

[RTR]

For my techniques on bio and mech, see:

http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/cannister.shtml

This has been picked up by a number of hobbyists on these boards, who now share my feeling on the division of filtration formats.

I cannot live with HOB filters. The noise drives me bonkers.

[val]

wiEngineer...

I posted a question for you over in DIY...

Val

[Serrateeth_2002]

You can't have bio filtration without mechanical,they work hand in hand.The bacteria colonies need the stuff that got sucked up by mechanical means to convert ammonia and so on.

[beviking]

Serra, as they describe mechanical filtration, they're referring to seperation of particulate matter from the water. Yes you will have some bacteria colonize on the media, but it will not grow to a useable colony b/c of the accumulation of particulate matter (which will suffocate the bacteria).
When a seperate filter is set up for bio-filtration only, the pre-filter keeps particulate matter out of the media which prevents suffocation of the bacteria. Then, only water (along with nutrients like ammonia and nitrite which the bacteria need)is able to flow through the filter. This reduces maintenance on the bio-only filter, though the pre-filter must still be cleaned.

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by Serrateeth_2002
You can't have bio filtration without mechanical,they work hand in hand.The bacteria colonies need the stuff that got sucked up by mechanical means to convert ammonia and so on.

??????????????

The best of use of mechanical filtration is to remove particulate matter BEFORE it breaks down and contributes to the load on the biofilter. The biofilter can survive quite nicely on just the ammonia produced by the fish, thank you very much. Just like when you fishlessly cycle.... nothing for the bacteria to eat but ammonia.

If you leave the crud in the tank, it's just going to be reduced to nitrates and other dissolved compounds (i.e., pollution) so why leave them in there? No good reason to...

Jim

[FishmasteR2002]

From what MP was saying about the H.O.T. Magnum being good for mechanical filtration is true. There is a Bio filtration attachment for it too. You can hook up the Bio-Pro 30 to the H.O.T. Magnum and there is your complete filtration. That's what I am going to do in my tank. Good Luck! :)

[JamisonBWolsh]

Why not get a Fluidized bed filter? Better Bio filtration then a canistor AND there is NO Maintence involved! :) :D

[Sumpin'fishy]

I have a 55 gal with a 300 gph HOB filter and a Magnum HOT. My HOB is for mechanical, and my HOT is filled with ceramic noodles with the mesh screen around the media chamber. It doesn't have a prefilter on it. The mesh does accumulate detritus over time, but not as much as my HOB. I clean my HOB every week and my HOT about once a month. My water looks pretty clear IMO. I also never get over 20 ppm nitrates in a week, and do 50% water changes.

To keep the noise down on my cheap Top Fin 300 gph HOB, I fill the water up about a quarter or a bit more above the trim of the tank when I do water changes. In a week it gets back down to the trim and then I'm doing another water change. I think it is more visually appealing not to see the waterline and it also stops the water-trickling noise of the HOB. Try it! With the two systems, I'm also cycling about 450 gph in my tank, so it's great for a 55 gal.

[ewok]

yeah, i don't get that entirely myself..... i never notice a slight trickle of water noise *unless* the water level in the tank is dropping.......

just a thought.....

[wiEngineer]

Thanks for all of the input, everyone.

I think I'll continue to use my canister as a bio-filter with the pre-filter sponge over the intake.

For mechanical filtration, I'm leaning towards two different options:

1) Get an AC500 and fill it with sponges and floss ($29.99/filter, $3.49/sponge at bigal's)

2) Get a HOT Magnum ($39.99) and foam sleeves ($4.99) and possibly some kind of carbon media for inside the sleeve (can anyone with a HOT explain the layout a little better, especially as it relates to media types for mechanical filtration)

--

In researching the Magnim, I did notice that the output pipe can be extended to be under the water, which reduces my noise concerns over hang-on types of filters.

Any thoughts with these directions?

[Sumpin'fishy]

The layout of a HOT is a simple design with a rough cylinder in which is a hard mesh container that can hold a variety of media (I use ceramic noodles) I think it is fairly large and would hold more than enough carbon. around this hard mesh container is a foam sleeve. This sleeve is the mechanical filter, which does a decent job. I personally would go with the AC500 in your case and get the sponge inserts. They are even easier to clean than the HOT and move more water. The sponge is very adequate at removing particles from the water.

[MP]

Yes, ACs are easier to clean than HOT Magnums, but...

ACs make more splashing noise, and they don't fit over the rims of some larger tanks. IMO, they (vs. Magnums) are somewhat less capable of mechanical filtration.

HOT Magnums come with micron cartridges that can be used for water polishing (or run 24/7. Just buy a spare cartridge). Alternatively, you can run Magnum as a regular filter (with the above mentioned sleeve and container). And the container (although it's small) can be filled with floss or anything else you want.

I like and use both of these filters. IMO, ACs are very decent for a simple combined filtration (bio and mech). HOTs are, primarily, good as mechanical filters (their biocapacity is very limited for their high flow rate. True, you can add Biowheels there, but then you'll get the splashing noise).

Also, I'd like to comment of the fluidized bed filter suggestion. No maintenance? I wish! I used the famous Lifeguard FB 300 for a few months, got rid of it and would never come back. A maintenance nightmare! You have to maintain pre-filtering, deal with surges in flow (due to the changes in pre-filter clogging), you loose sand, you risk getting the sand packed and become anaerobic if you skip on a timely cleaning, it wouldn't re-start smoothly, etc., etc. Oh, I hated it so much! Never again! :)

[wiEngineer]

So how does the HOT 250 compare to the Magnum 350? Obiviously, the 350 is larger physically and pushes more water. But the price at bigal's is only about $30 more for the 350.

[MP]

We were talking about H.O.T. Magnum. It's a bit different from those you mention.
And when it comes with the BioWheels and gravel cleaner, they call it H.O.T. Magnum Pro.

[wiEngineer]

Sorry, my mistake. My brain called the HOT Magnum a 250 because I was looking at the 350 at the time (and the HOT is rated at 250gph).

So, putting aside the bio-wheel and gravel sucker stuff, comparing a HOT Magnum to a Magnum 350 in terms for mechanical capability as well as ease of use etc, which might be a better approach as a mechanical to supplement the bio in my XP3?

I'm willing to spend a little more to get it right.

[jdheff1982]

I use a Magnum HOT as a single filter w/ the micron cartridge and it does a fantastic job on keeping the water clear! I have used the media basket to keep filter floss in and it does an amazing job too!! So either method works just about the same. Keep in mind though, if you want to use the micron filter 24/7, keep an extra one handy!

Just thought I'd my 2 cents worth!

[wiEngineer]

[BUMP]

Any further thoughts on the HOT Magnum vs the Magnum 350 for mechanical?

[Richer]

The magnum 350 should be better at mechanical filtration... just because it has a higher flow rate (350gph) than the HOT magnum (which has a flow rate of 250gph). Just looking at flow rates, I'd probably guess that the 350 would be the filter for your tank.

Keep in mind, this is all speculation... the 350 and HOT seems to be the same sort of design, so I'd assume the 350 is good at mechanical filtration as well.

HTH
-Richer

[JSchmidt]

I agree that the 350 should filter more junk given its higher flow rate. It's hard to knock the simplicity and convenience of the HOT Magnum, though. They are so easy to clean/maintain. No hoses, valves, etc.

Jim

[Sumpin'fishy]

The biggest difference between the two is the design. The HOT means Hang On Tank (same as Hand On Back). The Magnum 350 is larger, acts as a regular canister, and has a higher flow rate. The media chamber looks like it holds more in the 350, since it is larger than the HOT.It depends on which design you like more and whether you need a higher flow rate

[wiEngineer]

Welp, I decided to go with a Magnum 350 instead of the HOT Magnum fro two reasons.

1) The canister/hose design allows me to eliminate unsightly HOB-type gadgets

2) Larger flow and media capacity is a "good thing".

I'll set this up as a heavy-duty mechanical filter and make some minor changes in my Filstar XP3 canister to make it better for bio-filtration .

Thanks for all of your thoughts and advice.

[Eyecare]

The Magnum micron cartridge does a great job polishing the water, no other filter comes close (expect for those diatom. earth types). Great flow rate too. But for the everyday stuff, the Aquaclears and Penguins are a good buy.

[felixis]

??????????????

The best of use of mechanical filtration is to remove particulate matter BEFORE it breaks down and contributes to the load on the biofilter. The biofilter can survive quite nicely on just the ammonia produced by the fish, thank you very much. Just like when you fishlessly cycle.... nothing for the bacteria to eat but ammonia.

If you leave the crud in the tank, it's just going to be reduced to nitrates and other dissolved compounds (i.e., pollution) so why leave them in there? No good reason to...

Jim

That's why tanks need plants to finish the process of cycling. Most will absorb all the nitrates etc. that your biological filtration does not break down. ;)

[RTR]

The half life of phenols (part of the routine organic pollution in tanks) is at least 18 months - even planted tanks. Dont count on the plants as pollution fighters past nitrate and phosphate, do the same or larger water changes.

[DeputyChiefJR]

I have a Magnum 350 and I love it...just make sure you install the emergency release valves and it's a life saver.....Seal the valves, turn off the impeller (which releases the canister), carry canister to sink, clean...so easy....Just get the PRO set...the BIO-Wheel Pro 60 (which is supposed to be available seperately) has just been discontinued....If anyone has one and no longer wants it, let me know

[felixis]

Oh cool, I never heard of phenols before. :duh: