How long do Flukes live outside the aquarium?

[Lukara]

I've been having an ongoing battle with flukes for a few months now and I'm not sure if my water changing equipment may not be a part of the problem.

I do weekly 50% water changes and I'd like to know from those of you who are knowledgeable about flukes if the parasites can live for long periods of time outside the aquarium, such as in my python or in my bucket used for pre-treating the water to refill my aquarium.

Thanks in advance.

[OrionGirl]

Aquatic parasites can not survive for long out of water, as a rule. Most can't tolerate dessication, and very, very few can survive for long outside of a host. Flukes are in this category--they have require a host to live.

What I suspect is that you are treating the fish for the visible symptoms, and then ceasing treatment. The problem is that the life cycle of flukes include eggs, which typically are unaffected by treatment. So the adults die off, you quit treating, and the eggs hatch, causing another infestation. I recommend treating the entire tank with 2 tsp of salt per 10 gallons of water, maintaining this level for 4 weeks. Begin doing water changes with FW after, to slowly reduce the salinity.

[Lukara]

OrionGirl thanks for your reply. I'm glad to hear that I won't need to sterilize my python and bucket weekly after every water change.

Last week I put Praziquantel in my aquarium and the fish seemed to stop scraping ever since. I was thrilled! However, today I did a 50% water change as well as some pruning and rearranging of some plants and after it was done I noticed one of my little guys scraping on some leaves. I was worried that perhaps they could get reinfected with flukes from my python or the bucket. If the parasites can't survive for 1 week without a host or out of water, then it's not re-infection. Perhaps the flukes never all died out with the Prazi, or it could be me being paranoid. I know that some fish scrape themselves on objects when there are changes in the water chemistry such as a ph fluctuation, and in my case, I only saw this fish scratching itself after the water change. My tap water is 7.4 and my aquarium hovers between 6.8 in the morning to 7.0 in the evening because of the CO2.

I will pay close attention this week and see if they continue to scrape.

[wetmanNY]

Praziquantel is a godsend in eliminating flukes I'm just as paranoid about flukes as Lukara. One thing not mentioned yet in this good thread is that flukes (both gill flukes and body flukes) are in the flatworm phylum. Praziquantel works against flatworms and nematodes. I noticed (inadvertently) that it paralyzes Lumbriculus California blackworms.

My understanding is that prazi remains effective in the aquarium for a moderately long time. It doesn't degrade quickly like formalin or potassium permanganate. Praziquantel gets the eggs as they hatch... but you might be diluting it out with water changes.

BTW. praziquantel is really hard to get into solution, IME. Does anyone have an emulsifier that they use and would recommend?

[Lukara]

Wetman, if I see that the scratching continues... Do you think that if I put in a 2.5 mg/L dose of Biltricide and then I forgo one weekly water change and only make a 50% water change two weeks after the dose that I will get a 100% kill - adults, eggs and larvae? I keep my tank temp at 78 - 80 degrees depending on how hot the weather gets.

I was surprised at how difficult it was to dissolve. I put it in a 1L container and stirred for about 5 minutes (Someone suggested to get a container with a lid and shake it vigorously, which is a better idea). Then I took a bucket and filled it with 5 gallons of tank water and poured the container into the bucket and stirred for another 5 minutes. I poured that into the aquarium and rinsed off the big bucket as much as I could. It was tedious because the prazi was sticking onto the bucket near the surface of the water. I got most of it though and when I poured it into the aquarium, I saw some of the prazi settle on my plants, and there was accumulation on the glass near the surface of the water. I did this treatment in the evening before lights out and the next morning the prazi appeared to be dissolved completely.

[wetmanNY]

I would do a repeat dose-- 100% kill is always hard to guarantee. I found with Fluke-Tabs that the flukes would recur. (And its active ingredient is a toxic organophosphate insecticide.)

Now Praziquantel is part of my quarantine regime.

The screwtop jar is quite necessary.I'm sorely tempted to use the household blender, but that's just the kind of monkeyshines that make me a social pariah from time to time... I've noticed too that prazi seems to have dissolved/disappeared within 24 hours.

If you google "praziquantel" most of what you pull down is about de-worming us warm-blooded critters and our household mammals. Dr Erik Johnson at www.koivet.com has the best article on praziquantel for fish (koi).

[Lukara]

I too used Fluke tabs as well and I had a recurrence. Also, my fish didn't seem to like me after the treatment. I will not use that stuff again.

I'm quarantining some fish at this time, it has been almost 3 weeks now and they are showing no signs of illness at all. I'm curious Wetman, you say that you use Prazi when you quarantine, do you use whether or not you see signs of illness? I'm tempted to use it even though I don't see any problems with my quarantine fish since it's so mild, but I'm on the fence on this idea.

[Lukara]

A thought occurred to me regarding ways to dissolve the prazi and I'd love your opinions on this...

What if I took a piece of very clean pantyhose and put the prazi inside it and attach it to the filter output nozzle for 24 hours?

[OrionGirl]

Haven't had any experience with the product, so ignore me if I'm in left field here...But I know they make a small gadget that's used for crushing pills. Sort of like a small mortal and pestle, all in one. Would something like this be useful in getting the tab into a smaller granule that might dissolve more easily?

[wetmanNY]

Mine has always been in finely powdered form. The tablets are for dosing mammals, since it's so bitter we're all likely to gag on it.

My feeling is that fishes always arrive with some low population of skin or gill flukes. Random checks of Brochis and Cories imported into Britain showed flukes deeply imbedded in skin and gills. A light load of flukes is sustainable in the wild, but runs rampant in the aquarium, IME.

So I'm giving a preventive dosing of prazi. Its toxicity for fishes is quite low, I'm reading. In mammals, prazi is quickly cleared from the liver. (This is especially an issue when re-dosing any medicament.)

[OrionGirl]

Ahhh. I'll check with our folks and see if they treat with this, and if they can offer tips of getting it into solution.

[dave76]

Is this safe for use with mollusks? That and do you know anywhere you can buy less than 50 grams? I would only need about 10 or so.

[goldfish freak]

I don't know how long flukes can live out of water but I do know that they will quickly die without a host to feed on, I am quite sure that they cannot live for a week without a host. To the best of my knowledge salt will do nothing to kill flukes. If there is some information out there on the contrary I would like to read it.

There are other reasons that a fish will scratch or flash besides flukes, one of them is a significant change in water chemistry. Did you do the 50% water change with water directly out of the tap? If so then the noticeable change in pH may have been the cause of the scratching.

I too use the prazi as a preventative treatment for all new fish since it is such a gentle medication. I have read some accounts of Fluke Tabs being hard on fish, so I am glad that I was able to get my hands on some prazi.

Lakura, that is an interesting idea on dissolving the prazi, I don't know how well it would work, but you could give it a try and let us know.

WetmaNY, I have read on the Simply Discus message board that
acetone can help prazi dissolve, here are a couple of quotes from a moderator on that board, "In acetone, mix 3 parts acetone to one part prazi, then pour chalky substance over the tank water... be careful as it too much acetone will cause oxygen depletion....use only pure acetone." And, "One of the ways to get Prazi to go into solution is to use a little Acetone. This works great and seem to have no effect on the fish, or the water quality because the acetone is broken down by bacteria in the water."

HTH.

[Rocketman]

A little off-topic, but aren't weekly 50% water changes a lot? Most people get by fine with bi-weekly 35-45% changes. Of course, if you are overstocked this may not apply.

And another pointer. Make sure you vacuum all your substrate when treating for any parasite. Many treatments wil cause the parasite to fall off the host, (fish) and onto the gravel. Therefor it is a good idea to vacuum the gravel to get any eggs, larvae, or adults that have not been killed.

[OrionGirl]

Saltwater will kill most nematodes--the osmostic imbalance dessicates them. If it doesn't work on fish flukes, I stand corrected, but I think many commercial hatcheries use salt baths as treatment.

Head of the hatchery operations just emailed me indicating that formalin, salt, and hydrogen peroxide were the only approved treatments for external parasites in trout--has to do with them being on the menu for many people. ;)


(From and archive of drug treatments, from Pandora's Fish page on diseases)
There are several ways to attack flukes depending on the circumstances. Where you wish to treat the entire tank (which I think should be your approach), a simple salt treatment is often the safest and most prudent choice. The dose is four ounces of salt per ten gallons of water, maintained over three weeks to prevent reinfestation with newly-hatched flukes.

[Lukara]

Wetman, thanks, I will consider using it as well for my quarantined fish.

Goldfish freak, hello again. Yes, the water change I made was with water directly from the tap. I pre-treat my change water in a bucket with dechlorinator and baking soda. I've been doing this ever since I got my tank in December and haven't had any problems with fish becoming overly stressed. They don't lose their color and my SAE's actually go after the hair on my arm when I do my weekly maintenance. The PH from my tap water is 7.4 and in the tank it's between 6.8 to 7.0 depending on the time of day. I've done PH tests about an hour after my water changes and it was always been within 0.1 - 0.2 difference of the PH reading before the water change. Any suggestions on getting the water in the bucket down to a PH of 7.0 which won't be harmful to my plants?

I suspect that it probably was the change in the chemistry of the water that caused one of my fish to scratch itself. Since I'm paranoid about if they have flukes or not I spent a lot of time watching them today and they didn't scratch about the tank as far as I saw. I will continue to check throughout the week.

As for the pantyhose idea, I will try it and let you know. I don't know how effective it would be when using prazi in powder form, however, I managed to get my hands on tablets (yay!) and am thinking that it just might do the trick.

Rocketman, I'm not overstocked at all :) Quite the contrary, actually. I do 50% weekly water changes to reset the proper nutrient levels for my plants.

Dave, in a previous post, Cearbhaill said that he got prazi from Goldfish Connection for $15 US for 100 grams (3.5 oz).

[goldfish freak]

It is good that your are not scratching as far as you can tell. The prazi may have done the trick.

I am curious as to why you add baking soda to the water that you prepare to do your weekly water change. Baking soda will increase pH and KH in water. Since the water in your tank is 6.8-7.0, why would you want to raise it higher by adding the baking soda? I don't know how much baking soda you are adding to your water but if it is more than a very little, then a fifty percent water change would result in an pretty significant immediate change in pH. You mentioned that you have been battling flukes for months now, has it been approximately as long as you have had this tank, and do you only notice this scratching behavior after a water change? If so, then I believe that there would be your problem. You mention that the pH in your water tests only 0.1 to 0.2 difference an hour after your water change. I have noticed that when preparing water for my water change that it will test the same as the water in my tank after about half an hour of aerating it with a power head. Water will off gas and become stable with regards to it's pH quite quickly with good aeration. Try testing your water several minutes after doing your water change to get more accurate results of what the pH is of your water at that time.

[dave76]

OK repeating, does anyone know if prazi is safe for mollusks? None of the information leans either way.

[Lukara]

Goldfish freak, I add baking soda to my change water because my tap water has a KH of only 1.7 which, from what I've been reading is a bit low to buffer the acids present. So I bring my KH up to 5.6 and inject enough co2 to bring my PH to the desired range (6.8-7.0) and keep my co2 levels between 20-30 ppm. Am I doing something wrong here?

I have been battling Flukes for quite some time now, shortly after I started the hobby in December. Back then I inquired about quarantining and the "trusty" LFS employee (who at the time appeared to know what he was talking about) told me that quarantining wasn't necessary. All I had to do was, "use common sense and make sure the fish looked healthy upon purchase" and "install a UV sterilizer and I would not have to worry about diseases." Stupid me, I listened to him. I bought and installed the UV and simply acclimated new fish directly into the tank. HUGE MISTAKE. I ended up with ick problems and flukes. Well I got rid of ick with Cupramine (after having tried MANY other ineffective treatments) and said goodbye to my plants. The fish (mainly my SAE's) scratched wether or not the water was changed recently.

Suffice it to say I am now equipped with 2 fully independent quarantine tanks and a much better understanding of things.

My next water change is Tuesday. I will do a PH test a few minutes after the change to see what the results are.

Sorry for my long posts by the way.

Dave, I have some shrimp in my tank and they suffered no ill effects from the treatment, however the effects if any may not be immediate. You might try calling the makers of PraziPond to find out.

[dave76]

The mollusks I speak of are snails. While shrimp are invertabrates they are not mollusks. I have two apple snails that my wife will kill me if I kill them.

[TKOS]

At work I often have to dissolve chemicals in water and it is common practice to first boil the water. Boiling water allows for better dissolving and then just let it cool to a disired temperature. It might work and would be much safer than acetone, which is known to damage livers.

[Lukara]

Dave, my most sincere appologies, I misunderstood your question.

[dave76]

its ok, I have a controlled issue sometimes my fish scratch, other times they dont. I have mostly cichlids in my tank. I have never really seen any adverse affects from them scratching, but when my pictus cat scratches every now and then it worries me. I was looking for a low toxicity solution because of the pimelodus pictus sensitivity to certain medications. this sounds like the right medication for me as long as it does not damage mollusks. I guess I could move them to another tank, but I also worried that they might carry some of the parasites (if any really are in the tank at all) and then bring them back when I move them back.:confused:

[wetmanNY]

I haven't noticed any dip in Melanoides populations, but with large glamorous snails, I'd remove them and keep them in quarantine for the while. Keep them isolated long enough to be sure not to reintroduce any fluke larvae. (Would that be a possibility with the egglaying gill flukes?)

[dave76]

Sounds like a good idea I was thinking of transferring them to thier own home anyway. I got a 10 gallon im not using.