strange deaths in a 55gal

[jcmonkeygirl]

I have a 55 gallon with tetras, pleco, and 2 discus.
In the past 2 weeks some of my fish are strangely disappearing. 1st a brand new ram disappeared in then 4 days later a tetra disappeared ( i have had him for about a year). There were no dead bodies or anything and i do a fish count in my tank everyday so they disappeared in 24 hours from the last time i saw them. Then today i found my last ram dead. He had died sometime since this morning. I tested my h2o yesterday and everything was normal. I don't understand what is going on!
help me please. b/c if my pleco dies or disappears i will be devastated!

oh by the way there is no way of escaping the tank b/c the whole top is covered either with lids or filters.

thanks
:confused:

[OrionGirl]

Fish that die off are quickly consumed by their tankmats--even herbivores are known to pick at a carcass. If you have any snails, they too will quickly converge on a dead fish. For smaller fish like tetras, it's not uncommon for the remains to disappear.

Of more concern, what is killing them? How stable is the tank? What are the parameters (and no, saying they are okay isn't helpful :) ), what is your maintenance routine, what and how often and how much do you feed? What else is in the tank?

[ChilDawg]

The discus are likely to be stressed when kept in such a small shoal...ideally discus are kept in species-style tanks with maybe a few non-cichlid tankmates in a 75g+.

[jcmonkeygirl]

I have:
pleco
2 discus
2 zebra danios
2 silver tip tetras
3 black skirt tetras
3 scissortail tetras
3 glow light tetras
3 julii cory cats

I had no ammonia, no nitrite, my nitrate level was at 10ppm. My pH is 6.8 and my temp is ~83 degrees. I do a h2o change every sunday. I feed 2x daily. I alternate foods of frozen discus food, tropical color flake foods, and tetranatures delica gel. I feed tiny amounts twice a day. Also, once a day i give my pleco and cories an algae wafer and shrimp pellets. I really do not think i am overfeeding, but everyone is getting ample amounts of food.

[jcmonkeygirl]

i know discus should be kept in bigger groups in larger tanks, but they seem happy and i haven't had problems with them since i have had them. i was misinformed by a fish store about these fish and now i understand more about them. i just can't afford to do anything about it.

[ChilDawg]

Okay, but I would recommend selling them back and getting something more appropo to that tank. It's your call, though!

(Not trying to flame, but merely inform.)

~Matthew

[NewbieForever]

Man, this is like a horror story you'd tell around a campfire. If you could get your hands on another tank, you might be able to buy yourself some time...

[jcmonkeygirl]

I have a 20 long as well with just 2 danios in it. It is cycled all ready. should i move fish over there so that nothing else dies? i bought the tank for my mom but i am not giving it to her until the end of august so i could move fish temporarily if need be?

[Rocketman]

I know Discus like warmer tanks, but 83 seems a little high? Ig you have had the temperature this high forever, it's not the problem. But higher temperatures mean lower levels of dissolved oxygen, so if you just added these fish, or just stopped aerating, (using an air pump,) or just changed filters, it may be the problem.

Other than that, stay open to suggestions, but remember it could always be a coincidence.

[jcmonkeygirl]

i turned the temp up in my tank b/c people on this website told me to like a month or two ago. i have kept in between 82 and 84 degrees since they told me that. I haven't changed my filters in 2 weeks, i was going to do that today before i found the dead fish. should i lower my temp?

[Rocketman]

Like I said, if it has been like that for awhile, don't worry - it isn't your problem, most likely.

Wait for more replies from some other people who have more opinions though. And remember, it could always be a coincidence, but don't rule out something bad happening in the tank.

[jcmonkeygirl]

I am sorry if i sound irritated and grouchy, i am not meaning to. I am just very concerned on the deaths. Especially with the silvertip dying, i love those silvertips! I dont' understand what is going on and i am looking for as much help as i can get.

[KateA.]

At first glance I might suspect some weirdly high levels of something a tap water conditioner isn't removing. But then again, the discus are usually the most sensitive to tap water things. But maybe the tetras and other deceased fish just don't like the high temps. The discus do, and maybe that's why they are okay.

[jcmonkeygirl]

That could be the case but why would it all of the sudden happen if it has been like this for sooo long? It all happened when i put the 2 rams in! One looked bad by the time i got him home so i wasn't too upset about him dying but the other ram looked great and seemed to be enjoying his new home. :(

[cdawson]

That's the problem right there, the ram probably brought some disease into the tank that's slowly killing off your fish. What did the ram look like when you got it?

[Rocketman]

Bang, that would definitly be the problem, (that's why I asked you earlier if you had added any new fish to the tank.)

I would do a large, (50-60, maybe 70%) water change, change the filters...make sure to vacuum the gravel well, as there could be a parasite.

Don't do this (what I say below,) until someone else OK's it, but you may want to add some Marcyn or Maracide, (1 or 2). The only reason I would hesitate is that we are not sure what disease it is. You may also want to consider some Copper treatment....these are mostly ideas for other people on these boards to approve though, as I don't have too much disease experience.

[Pink Pat]

jcmonkeygirl,

Here's my take:

According to the foods you listed above and the information you have provided, I have drawn the conclusion that you are not directly feeding the pleco. The pleco of course is the only fish that is capable of killing and eating the missing fish. All of the fish disappear at night and the pleco is also the fish most likely to be active at night. My experience says that the pleco is responsible and that target feeding the pleco will solve your problem.

Plecos are sometimes funny eaters but a variety of sinking foods and veggies are recommended. Blanched veggies such as cucumber or romaine lettuce leaves a great way to satisfy the 'greens' requirement. Carrots and thawed frozen peas are still more. Freeze dried krill are sometimes eaten as are bloodworms. Typically however, if you take care of the veggie requirement plecos are pretty easy to satisfy.

Sometimes it takes a while for the pleco to view something new as food. Give them time. Feed just before lights out and if the food goes uneaten overnight, remove it. Try different foods. Once they discover the food, they will eat ravenously. Do not interpret this as 'hungry' and feed more or more often. Feeding twice a week is usually sufficient.

I understand they have a 'requirement' for wood also. A piece of waterlogged, natural wood is necessary (or so the story goes) for proper digestion.

And finally I do not suggest feeding algae wafers to your pleco. It makes them lazy.

HTH

PP

[OrionGirl]

While it's possible the pleco ate some of the carcasses, I doubt it killed them. There's plenty of food going into the tank.

I would suspect that the high temp is causing problems for the non-discus fish. Fish metabolism is determined by environmental temps, and at such a high temp, most fish will be burning through the energy quickly--needing more oxygen, which is depleted in the warmer water. Rams tend to prefer cooler waters--I think 76 is about average, so the sudden change would have been enough to knock them out.

I'd increase surface agitation, with a plan to split the cories and tetras into a cooler tank.

[ChilDawg]

What OG said...the Discus will survive well in a tank of that temp, but the rest of them won't...and the Pleco seems to be snacking on the carcasses, which is the reason that the tank hasn't fallen completely apart! (Sorry to be crass, but I'm trying to be direct and help rather than tiptoe around the issue.)

[jcmonkeygirl]

wow! thanks guys for all the help. As far as the pleco goes, i have tried every vegetable imaginable to feed him (tried diff. varieties all throughout the time i have had him =~2yrs), he has drift wood and i know he loves his sinking wafers b/c i watch him eat them at night. I was told to cut back the food i was feeding him b/c it was making my nitrate spike. Since i have cut back there have been no nitrate problems.
the rams: When i got them they both looked great! I am guessing the temp increase probably killed them b/c i didn't notice any disease issues. The ram that died first stayed at the bottom of the tank until he disappeared a couple of days later. But the second one swam with my glowlights and seemed content.
i have been turning down the temp ~2 degrees a day now, so i will not shock the fish.

i just found one of my scissortails dead. :(
this is enough to make me cry.
Should i try treating the tank with melafix?
the fish in my tank now are all swimming around happily begging for their dinner and i see no signs of illness.
any more suggestions? I will go insane if my pleco dies!!!!
i like my other fish but my pleco is my favorite.

again thanks for all the help and please help me more.

[Pink Pat]

Jeremi,

i have tried every vegetable imaginable to feed him

--Keep trying. If you are feeding the sinking wafers, stop and give him only veggies. Thawed frozen peas or cucumber slices are good starters.

I was told to cut back the food i was feeding him b/c it was making my nitrate spike.

--If N03 is a problem, water changes are better than food reductions.

I am guessing the temp increase probably killed them b/c i didn't notice any disease issues.

--By your admission you are guessing. If I may be so bold, I suggest you are guessing wrong. Healthy fish are not there one minute, dead and gone the next due to heating. Your temperature is barely at the very edge of 'high' (my temps are often in the 87-89* range and I don't have this problem) and extremely unlikey to be the cause.

i have been turning down the temp ~2 degrees a day now

--IMO this is going to cause you problems with your Discus.

i just found one of my scissortails dead.

--What were the symptoms? Was the fish found floating?

Should i try treating the tank with melafix?

--I vote no. You don't even know what you are treating. You have so far thought that the fish were dying from heat. Melafix won't fix that, even if it was the problem.

any more suggestions?

--Tell us more about the aquarium. What are the parameters? What is your maintenance cycle?

OrionGirl,

While it's possible the pleco ate some of the carcasses, I doubt it killed them.

--I believe this is incorrect. I would guess that a 2yr. old pleco is about 6-8", certainly big enough to kill and eat the missing fish. Since the pleco isn't being target fed, the likelihood that it could be the culprit places it squarely at the top of my suspect list.

I would suspect that the high temp is causing problems for the non-discus fish.

--There would most likely be a symptom or two if this was true. Especially if there are deaths.

...and at such a high temp, most fish will be burning through the energy quickly--needing more oxygen, which is depleted in the warmer water.

--If there was a problem with 02 shortage the fish would collect at the surface, gasp, respire quickly, be lethargic, would fail to eat, etc. None of these symptoms have been mentioned so I do not believe this is the problem here.

Just my $0.02

PP

[cdawson]

You have to isolate what disease is killing your fish, identify what the disease is. Test your ammonia and nitrites, again and again. The discus could even be harassing the smaller fish to death in such a small tank. They are cichlids, and we all know their temperment. Melafix won't help, it's more of a polysporin for fish. It helps heal wounds and infection but won't treat them.

[Rocketman]

Pink Pat, I have to disagree with you that high temperatures and lack of dissolved oxygen are not the problem. While you may be right, you may be wrong.

You say that surely there would be some symptoms before the fish died. It's possible, however, that the symptoms wheren't noticed.

Additionally, you state that the fish would gasp at the surface. Few fish can do this; those few fish have labrynth lungs. They include Gouramies and Goldfish as well as Underwater frogs. However, they do not include Scissor Tail Tetras.

Furthermore, a year-old Scissor Tail Tetra is a pretty big kill, (up to 3", based on the size of my Scissor Tails,) for a Pleco to eat. Even by your most generious calculations, this Pleco was not even 3 times the size of the missing Tetra. Of course, this is not to say that the Pleco didn't harrass the Tetra to death.

[Pink Pat]

Rocketman,

Please don't think ill of me, but I'd like to continue holding my ground. I'll gladly listen to any information you have that supports your position, but from the information supplied so far, there is little to do so.

I have to disagree with you that high temperatures and lack of dissolved oxygen are not the problem.

--There is absolutely nothing in the information supplied by Jeremi in his original posts that indicates a problem with 02 saturation. 86* is not enough IMO to drive off sufficient amounts of dissolved 02.

While you may be right, you may be wrong.

--Absolutely. I am by no means the person with all of the answers. If I am wrong, I'll gladly admit it. I am not here to prove anything. I've argued and lost my position many times and view each is a learning opportunity.

You say that surely there would be some symptoms before the fish died. It's possible, however, that the symptoms weren't noticed.

--Forgive me for noting that this is an excuse, not fact. In Jeremi's first post he stated that his fish were 'strangely disappearing'. That doesn't sound like a symptom at all. He didn't say his fish were (pick one) acting funny, breathing strange, lethargic, not eating, have spots, ad nausem. His fish weren't dying of a disease, they were 'strangely disappearing'. It makes sense to investigate possible reason how that could happen.

By far the Discus in this aquarium are the fish most likely to be attuned to their environment and certainly a 'fragile' fish. They would be displaying distress if there was something amiss with the 02 level. It was never mentioned that this was the case.

And, if ever is the case where 02 depletion is suspected, an airstone or increased surface agitation are the instant cure. Move the surface, have oxygen. Even holds true in variable temperatures.

Additionally, you state that the fish would gasp at the surface. Few fish can do this; those few fish have labrynth lungs.

--You only have this partly correct and then you have it all wrong. Any[I] fish can gasp at the surface. In an 02 depleted environment [I]every fish will come to the surface to get 02. Even the pleco.

Labyrinth fish aren't those fish that are capable of gasping at the surface. They are fish with 'lung' capability and they have the choice of breathing at the surface or extracting 02 through the gills.

Furthermore, a year-old Scissor Tail Tetra is a pretty big (up to 3", based on the size of my Scissor Tails,) for a Pleco to eat.

--And a flat bodied (compressed) fish. A perfect place for the pleco to attach itself.

Even by your most generious calculations, this Pleco was not even 3 times the size of the missing Tetra.

--It isn't the size of the fish at all that causes me suspicion, it is the mouth. It is the only one capable of swallowing the missing fish. Snails will help with scraps, but no other fish in the aquarium has the mouth or the size to devour that size fish.

I'm not saying that my idea is the only one. I'm just using the information supplied by Jeremi to deduce a logical conclusion. 1). The fish are disappearing. 2). At night. 3). The pleco isn't being target fed and recently his food supply was reduced. 4). There are no other symptoms mentioned. 5). The water parameters listed do not seem unusual. 6). It seems logically correct that the fish are being eaten. 7). The wafers being fed might not be satisfying the fishes needs.

Then it stands to reason that it has to be a fish large enough to complete that task. All of the other fish working together couldn't eat these fish to the point of disappearing.

It was mentioned that these fish might be harassed or killed by other fish, mainly the cichlids. Cichlids are territorial, agreed, but a 55 has a good amount of space for territories. It is rare that in an open space that they would be killed by the cichlids. Not impossible, just rare. It does seem that it is becoming rather commonplace in this aquarium.

cdawson mentioned testing the water and I agree. I don't think it needs to be tested over and over, but it should be tested and tested regularly. Regular partial water changes and testing will keep you well ahead of most of the pratfalls of this hobby.

Again, please don't think that I am trying to be anything other than helpful. I've got more than a few years of experience and I am just bringing that into play. I'll gladly listen to any side of a debate or any information that supports a position different than the one I take. I don't know everything and do not try to pretend that I do.

HTH

PP

[Rocketman]

Alright. Please don't interpret this as argumentative, but I've heard that in most tanks where there is not injected Co2, there is actually more Co2 in the atmosphere than in the water. Therefore, creating surface agitation merely infuses more Co2.

When I first heard this, I was puzzled. This debunks a long standing myth. Wouldn't this tell as that the only place for an Airstone is a planted tank that is not receiving Co2 injection?

In a non-injected tank CO2 will be added to the tank through gas exchange by aerating the tank and good water movement. Keep in mind that the CO2 concentrations in a non-injected tank are quite low 'Gassing off' occurs in CO2 saturated water. Aerating it will actually draw gas into the tank from the atmosphere(minimal though it may be).

What puzzles even further is that this was taken from quite a respected member of the Plant Forum, DJLen. So, I wholeheartedly believe him. Therefore, I have to disagree with you that adding an airstone would be the immideate solution.

[Pink Pat]

Rocketman,

I've heard that in most tanks where there is not injected Co2, there is actually more Co2 in the atmosphere than in the water.

This is true. There is more in the atmosphere than in the water column. It means that C02 is hard to enter into solution. The water column, when disturbed (agitated) will give up the C02 easily.

I'm not disrespecting what you know, nor the expertise of DJLen, but the explanation provided is incorrect.

Aquariums that are not injected with C02 will have ambient amounts of dissolved C02. It cannot have more than the atmosphere holds. Agitation with an airstone will not add more C02. It will bring the surface of the water into contact with the atmosphere more often and there will be a better gas exchange ratio. It still won't mean that there will be more C02 in solution.

When I first heard this, I was puzzled. This debunks a long standing myth. Wouldn't this tell as that the only place for an Airstone is a planted tank that is not receiving Co2 injection?

--I do not understand what you are saying here. Can you please explain what myth you are referring to? And I am not sure I get the part about the airstone either. Can you please explain that better?

Therefore, I have to disagree with you that adding an airstone would be the immideate solution.

--If the problem was a shortage of dissolved 02, adding an airstone would be the easiest way to get 02 into solution. Not so much from the bubbles, but from the agitation supplied. Bringing the water into contact with the surface increases the gas exchange.

And no matter what, C02 won't interfere with 02 levels since they are interdependent of each other. You can have 02 saturation to the point of pearling and still have maximum amounts of C02. You don't have to give up one to have the other. Also, increasing the amount of C02 in solution does not mean you will have lower 02 levels.

PP

[Rocketman]

What I was trying to say about the myth;

Every beginner fishkeeper has an air pump. In fact, the Pet Store I work at...when I'm selling fish I always make sure the tanks have the proper equipment before selling the fish. For example, I refused to sell a catfish to a woman with a coldwater goldfish tank. She refused to buy a heater so eventually I told the woman, "You know, that fish will live 2 days. You can have it, but I'm not taking it back." Haven't seen her since....the point is, more people have airstones than heaters. When someone comes in wanting to know whats wrong with their fish, I ask them about their tank and the first thing out of their mouths is, "Well, they have an airstone, so I dunno whats wrong." I reply, "Do they have a heater?" "What's that? It sounds expensive..." (this actually happened once.) So, by claiming that an airstone integrates more Co2 into the water than O2, this kinda makes everyone look dumb. We all assumed that adding airstone, by agitating the surface, integrated more O2 molecules into the water by mixing them with air that we always thought contained more oxygen than the water...I know air contains 18-20% oxygen in most cases, it's just a matter of how much oxygen is in the water.

[jcmonkeygirl]

Hey you guys...for an update on the fish tank.
I already have a deep water tank air pump with 2 bubble walls on it. but anyway, I tested my water last sunday and everything was normal (ammonia and nitrIte at 0, nitrate at 10ppm). I tested my water today and ammonia and nitrate were again at 0 but my nitrate had spiked up to like 80-160ppm. I did a 50% water change and i am going to test my water again later. About fish diseases, i don't know maybe i am overlooking things. But my fish all act the same as when i got them (most being anywhere from a year to 3 months ago, excluding my pleco whom i have had for 2 years). I don't know what is going on with my tank at all! I have not lost fish in like a year and that was b/c we had a horrible ice storm and i didn't have power for 7 days, my barbs didn't like that but my pleco pulled through. anyway, thanks everyone for all the advice and i am sorry it turned into such an argument between people that was not my intentions. hopefully my fish will stop dying!
thanks