additions to 35gal

[Mystroe_TheMyst]

I was thinking about putting a Johanni in with my 3" red top zebra and two 2" Kenyi's...tank is 3ft long and higher than normal 3ft tanks.

also I will be adding a few large fake plants into the tank to help territory issues.

if not..what would be a better choice for fish? It will have by the end 4 large fake plants and many many hiding places inc pipes, pots and concrete pipes..

what do you think?

[Andy16]

A 35 is sorta small for africans. A johanni is especially aggresive and i have herad some nasty things about kenyis also. The only not dwarf african cichlids i would try would be maybe 2-4 yellow labs. They are not as aggresive as most lake malawi mbuna. They are still pretty territorial though.

[Tightdog1]

i agree with ANDY16 in that a 35g is too small for those fish. bkuz most africans are agressive and very territorial and they would also appreciate bigger territories and they would be more happy that way.

[JSchmidt]

A Johanni isn't any more appropriate in this tank than was the livingstonii you proposed earlier (http://64.191.28.50/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13802).

This isn't the first time you've received feedback that a 35 is not large enough for the fish you have, much less for additional aggressive mbuna...

Jim

[Andy16]

I must have been in a rush when i posted my reply in that thread.

[Mystroe_TheMyst]

Yeah I've been told that and took it in, but my tank does seem bare with 3 fish..thats 1ftx2ftx1.5ft of space per fish (roughly) that is a whole heap IMO. I was thinking another 1..."1" that why I asked about the plants etc. my tank is pretty well aquascaped and there are heaps of caves...big and small some can get in some cannot. As for the bronze corys they are doing fine now I think the kenyis got over nipping. My male is starting to show yellow colouration and the larger one has yet to do so. So i was just wondering about another fish...honestly I was after some more positive answers instead of basic "no you can't, its too small etc. " not having a go but I was looking for suggestions...I've heard and known people that keep up to 20africans in a 4-5ft tank...IMO that is crowded i'm sure you will agree...but deaths=none! surprised...just thought it may work the same but with about 16less fish.

[JSchmidt]

I can understand that the tank may look empty to you, but territory defended by a male kennyi, if my memory of Loiselle or Konigs is correct, is about one two square meters. Plants or rocks caves may help break up sight lines somewhat, but they won't reduce the kennyi's desire to defend terrritory. If yours are just starting to color up to yellow, they haven't reached sexual maturity yet, which is when the fireworks begins. Until the fish have reached maturity, it's too early to even begin thinking that things are stable.

Overcrowding is a strategy that some keepers use to disperse the aggression of fish like kennyi. The idea is that the aggressor fish chase fish A, but in the course of the chase, they get distracted by and chase fish B, then fish C, so that no one fish takes the brunt of the aggression. In my experience, if this works at all, it requires a larger tank. I won't even try it in a tank less than 75 gallons, and even then, there's no guarantee it will completely eliminate fish deaths from aggression. (I'll leave aside the issues of increased filtration and maintenance.) In tanks smaller than 75 gallons (which usually have a footprint of 48" x 18") there isn't enough room for the initial victim of aggression to swim away, and the aggressor fish never gets distracted, and the target fish never evades the attacks.

Individual fish within a species will vary in their aggressiveness, so you might get away keeping a couple of kennyi in a 35. On the other hand, I've had a mature male kennyi that, even in a 180, would hound and kill ANY yellow or orange fish that was put into the tank, often within 24 hours.

I understand wanting to have a more visually active tank and I understand asking the same question over because you hope the answer might be different if you change some of the variables. The bottom line, though, that I think you're hearing rather consistently, is that many people with experience keeping these fish are suggesting a poor tank-fish match up. African cichlids are great fish to keep -- I've got many tanks of them, so I truly understand the appeal -- but they have requirements for good husbandry that exceed those of many other fish. It's a disservice to you, and to others who might be reading these threads, to pretend otherwise.

Good luck,
Jim

[Andy16]

I have made the mistake of putting africans in my 20 gallon tank. Lots of fatalities. Now im jsut going for a planted community and wait till i get a bigger tank thats like 55 gallons before i try it again. What JSchmidt said about overstocking the tank was very correct. IT only works in bigger tanks. The fish wont be able the start a territory with all of the otehr fish so they never do. You would also need to overfilter it a lot. Either way this method doesnt work in smaller tanks.

[<><FunSize><>]

I recon controled overcrouding is the way to go mate i think u should get a few more in the tank and that way the fish are always confused as to who is ganna be dominant and from my experiances the more fish the better and i have only ever lost a Albino cory to attaks from other fish and even if they all do attack each other u can always return them so i recon u should go for it and and sayen u should even get a few more :D they life in your tank would be better than the way they get treated in most fish shops so the fish would be better off in your tank

So if anyone disagrees with me **** you :D i would rather live in a tank at his place then in a tank at the shop where i get treated like crap so yeah thats all i gotta say

[PumaWard]

Not to say you should get rid of the fish you have now, but if you want africans in a smaller tank, I think that the smaller Juliodochromis species are the way to go. I have a Masked Julie in a 10 gal with 3 Paradise fish, he'll only get about 3 inches in length. Anyway, he (or is it a she..) is territorial, but usally gives warning signs to the other fish before actually attacking. He usually won't attack fish bigger than him either. Over all, I think he is pretty mild tempered compared to some other fish I have owned (which were rated "community). I'm very partiall to it even.

Anyway, the choice is ultimately yours, but IMO, Julies are the best africans :D

[Mystroe_TheMyst]

Better response's..yes funsize does make a good point, I mean the fish at the store are clusterrd together and the casualties are minimum (thats cause tanks are very small) and I think if I put enough fish in there to direct attensions (doesn't have to be cichlids) well I wouldn't post if I wasn't serious about adding another fish...and as you gather hearing that I cannot put another fish in is somewhat dissappointing. I know you guys are trying to help save me from seeing a death and I appreciate it but chances are I'm gonna keep searching round and put another fish in.

I've heard some nasty's about kenyi's but the red top zebra seems to be the alpha in the tank. killing feeders and goldfish 3/4 of his size....he also chases the kenyi's all over the tank until they go into 1 of many hiding places.

BTW how do you sex RTZebra's? I got him because he was pretty much a steal @ $5aus. which is cheap for a 3" red top.

Upgrading to bigger tank - in this issue I'm not going bigger than 3ft because of time issues so I'm upgrading my 18gal (2ft long) to a 30" long tank....I'm going to start a new thread so check it out.

but because somebody said Johanii's can be very mean I'm going to keep searching, how about if you can tell me a african that is larger than 3" but no bigger than 6"