Someone unravel this mystery

[crows4hire]

When the light came up on my discus tank this morning, it found two discus and 3 loaches dead. They were all perfectly happy last night with good color and no odd behavior. The tank showed no appreciable ammonia, nitrate or nitrite and the Ph and water temp were right where they should be.

At present the only problem with this tank is a hair/staghorn algae outbreak which I caused (stupid me) by buying the wrong liquid all-in-one fert and inadvertantly dosing the hell out the tank. The only other indicator that something was amiss was cloudy water this morning... the water is usually spotless (built in 3 chamber sump filter with purigen, floss and balls)

No one had their hands in the tank as far as I can tell, so what the hell happened? Can anyone make a suggestion? I have already done a large water change and cleaned the filter and replaced all the media (not the bioballs):confused:

BTW this is an established tank that has been thriving. Also, the ocats and the pleco are doing just fine and don't seem to know that anything is amiss. The sole remaining discus is the oldest of the bunch and came in first. His color is abysmal and he is hiding in the foliage and won't eat.

[Star_Rider]

probably could use a bit more information.
what are the exact(as close as the test can tell) parameters?
what is the pH? temp?
describe the over dosing??

cloudy water..agae or bacterial bloom?
any large water changes? how often is maint done?

[pinkertd]

inadvertantly dosing the hell out the tank. The only other indicator that something was amiss was cloudy water this morning... so what the hell happened? Can anyone make a suggestion?


I'm not sure, but I'm thinking dosing the hell out of the tank with ferts had a negative impact on water quality/nitrifying bacteria/oxygen content. You've already done a large water change which is going to help things, but still post your actual water stats now. What fert did you use and how much dosing did you do, and how frequent?

[crows4hire]

Ok, current Water stats using a SeaChem Master Kit shows Nitrate, Nitrite and Ammonia all at zero (this was the same reading on the water before the water change). The Ph is 7.8, which is rock solid for this area (Houston). Temp in tank is 82F. I do a 40% water change weekly as well as pruning plants, cleaning the filter, glass, etc. The tank utilizes a C02 DIY system with a small power head to inject the gas. As I said, this was a well established tank with no sign of trouble until chaos struck.

Ok, now for the details on my stupidity. I typically use a once a day liquid fertilizer, following the dosing instructions for my 29gal. I inadvertently purchased KENT Freshwater Plant which is an all in one and is meant for dosing about every 3-5 days. I additionally dose weekly with Discus Essential, also by Kent for the micronutrients. What I wound up with was a hair algae outbreak from (I'm guessing) all the Iron. Ok, now for the next stupidity. I did a water change a week ago, but changed out about 70% of the water, then refilled and dosed with the typical algae removing dose of Flourish Excel. Small problem... the Flourish Nitrogen bottle in the back of my cabinet looks exactly like my Excel. So for three days, I dosed with a dump load of Flourish Nitrogen... the green algae bloomed like daises. Finally, I realized my mistake, gave the tank a rest for a few days, then began dosing with Excel 2 days ago. Whew... there you have it and what a comedy of errors it is.

My own foolishness aside, none of these things should have caused the result that followed. I attribute these kinds of deaths to sudden spikes in Ph, which as far as I can tell did not happen here. Of course I could be wrong!

Finally the cloudiness of the tank does not appear to be an algae bloom, and as I said was not present when the lights went out last night. Typically the Purigen handles this kind of cloudiness, but it is being recharged right now.

[pinkertd]

What kind of an excel dosing did you do for 2 days. Excel will kill fish if overdosed at quantities necessary to kill algae quickly.

Quote from a moderator on practical fishkeeping:
"One main thing I must say though is that it does have an effect on fish if you don’t use by the instructions. If you over dose from day one you WILL kill the fish. If you build it up slowly then you shouldn’t have any problems."

[crows4hire]

15 mL both days. For a 29g tank I do not believe this is a lethal dose. Any thoughts? I know I have dosed like this in other tanks before with no ill effect.

[Easydoesit]

there were no marks on your fish? maybe the big guy got aggressive, but doubt that. i think its from your fert misshaps to be honest. even though it doesnt seem like it would be, with the overdosing of the different ferts within a small amount of time, i think it couldve been that. dont know why the other fish werent affected though.
isnt 7.8 a high pH for discus?

[gatotsu77]

What kind of loaches, and how many discus? Was there any visible damage to the bodies or fins of the deceased fish? Since I have no idea what the present stocking list is, I'm going to venture to guess that perhaps either inadequate space provided for the discus, or a spawning pair, which harassed the now-deceased to death. My 2 cents.

[pinkertd]

It may seem to you that you did not overdose it, but you did. You put the initial (after major water change) dose in two days in a row with no mention of a water change in between. DIRECTIONS: On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 gallons*). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily or every other day. I've seen where people have dosed it right where their discus was at the moment only to have the discus die. At least people should dilute it and slowly pour it into areas of the tank where there are no fish in the immeditate vicinity. Some fish are more sensitive than others. Could be that the fish that died swam thru the Excel.

Excel contains Gluteraldehyde. Gluteraldehyde is a strong BIOCIDE, related to formaldehyde. At sufficient concentration, it kills darn near anything, which makes it useful for sterilizing medical instruments, labware that has been exposed to infectious agents, etc. At lower concentrations, it's still not pleasant stuff. Gluteraldehyde crosslinks proteins, is a mutagen and carcinogen, is known to cause allergic chemical sensitization, and exposure is a known occupational hazard:

"The 1999 Code of Practice for Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (Chemical Agents) Regulations, 1994, reduces the occupational exposure limit for glutaraldehyde from 0.2ppm to 0.1ppm."

Dosing 1ml gluteraldehyde per 100g water exceeds this limit by a factor of 26.

From the MSDS:

---
Acute Effects:
May be fatal if inhaled.
Toxic if swallowed.
Harmful if absorbed through skin.
Causes severe eye irratation.
Causes skin irritation.
Material may be irritating to mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract.
May cause allergic skin reaction.

Chronic Effects:
Laboratory experiments have shown mutagenic effects.
Target organs: central nervous system, heart.

[crows4hire]

Thank you all for your help. The bodies of the dearly departed had none of the signs of harrassed fish... fins were completely intact, etc. The bodies were of the discus were blotchy, so I am inclined to agree with pinkertd that it was the Excel that got them. It almost look like chemical burn. My prior experience with this product has never resulted in loss of life, and my notes indicate that this was the same dosing I used in a similar tank several months ago. Sigh.

I hate losing fish. I particularly hate losing fish through personal negligence... and I really hate that I lost Norman the Blue... he was my favorite.

BTW, this tank is/was a medium planted tank with three medium size discus, 3 clown loaches, 4 o cats and one bristlenose pleco. It has been established and healthy for about a year now with no mishaps or signs of unhealth. 7.8 is the Ph that these fish have been bred in and they all do quite nicely in it (Houston City Water) and that is all I can think of to add.
Thanks again for all your help. If anyone has any other thoughts I would appreciate it!

[crows4hire]

Final Note:
Lights came up on a barren tank this morning. The last discus in pale with no color and swims with his side up against the filter intake... he won't eat of course. The remaining loaches are in hiding under the driftwood and they too will not eat. During the night (as if to mock me) the red algae has taken a firm foothold on every plant in the tank and I am disheartend.

When I looked in the tank the only thing I could think of was a line from Poe, "...and the red death held sway over all."

[Star_Rider]

Sorry for your losses.
unfortunaltely the toxins may have built up or even possibly been fat soluable..the reaction to the fertilizers may have been delayed.

why do you use Discus essentials??

[pinkertd]

I am so sorry for your losses. I can feel your pain in your posts. Planted tanks with fish in them are a delicate balance, especially with discus. Don't beat yourself up over this, you had no way of knowing what would happen. I can't even imagine being in those shoes, turning the lights on the tank and.....no life....... I hope you get back on your feet again, get the planted part of that tank growing fine and get yourself a few new discus! There's no cure for discus fever you know! Check out Dan at gulfcoastdiscus.com! I don't know how far away you are from him, but he's got great fish!

[crows4hire]

Thanks to all.
I started using Discus Essentials because of a slight degradation in the vividness of color in my discus some weeks ago. I found a few years back that a weekly dose of this was helpful, and indeed it was in this tank until something tipped way over the scale.

[SchizotypalVamp]

Is there any way to move the animals to another tank?

[crows4hire]

Unfortunately no, I don't have a hospital tank at the moment and do not want to risk contanimating my other healthy ones.

Oddly enough, I just tested my water (combatting water cloudiness) and I found a huge ammonia spike... almost 1 ppm, which would account for the behavior of the survivors... Considering that I just did a huge water change yesterday and the tests both before and after showed 0 ppm and that I know there are no dead fish hiding in the tank, where could this spike have come from? Did whatever caused my chaos wipe out my biological filtration as well? I use a 3 chmabered sump with bioballs, floss and purigen.

Obviously I just did another massive water change, but seriously WTF? Did this tank anger the gods or something?

[SchizotypalVamp]

I'm a newb, so I'm just venturing a guess, but if the excell is that toxic it probably was toxic to the beneficial bacteria too(?).

[wataugachicken]

i was totally going to say that. anything that can sterilize medical instruments can certainly damage your beneficial bacteria.