Stocking My 90 Gallon Cichlid Tank

[helios99]

I've been keeping fish for a 3 years in my 30 Gal tank. Seeing my enthusiasm and my prolonged dedication with fish keeping my mother bought a 90 Gal tank for me with state-of-the-art filtration and heating systems. I have decided to make this one a Cichlid only tank with the help of my cousin who has some experience with cichlids. Im not too sure about how to stock this one up though as im not used to this size <4ft (l) x 1.5 ft (b) x 2ft (h)> and behaviour of some cichlids.

The tank is set up, cycled and ready to get stocked. I have aquascaped it with lots of rocks and four well sized pieces of malaysian driftwood providing lots of cover and hiding places. I have not kept plants as im not sure if any of my cichlids would rip them apart. This is how i have been planning to stock it:

2 pairs of Blood red parrot Cichlids (small)
A pair of Jewel Cichlids
A pair of Zebra Cichlids
A pair of Snow White cichlids (?)

And im planning to shift my 4 baby clown loaches from the the 30 gal as it will be too small for them once they grow.

I would highly appreciate any suggestions and advice regarding the stocking and keeping of these fish. And any tips from someone with experience regarding these fish.

Thank you.

p.s. do you think there would be any room for a single small firemouth that my cousin has no place for?

Thanks again

[jm1212]

1st- i would not keep clown loaches with african cichlids. not only do africans need different water parameter, but they are just to aggressive for clowns.

that is alot of breeding pairs for a 90 gallon. the jewels wil get VERY aggressive when they breed, as will the others.

the blood parrots alone will fully stock the tank.

[krytan]

I wouldn't mix african cichlids with american cichlids either.

[helios99]

Krytan, these fish that im getting have being doing quite well together in my cousin's tank for a while now. some have bred a couple of timnes as well. but do you still think they wouldnt be able to coexist?

[helios99]

1st- i would not keep clown loaches with african cichlids. not only do africans need different water parameter, but they are just to aggressive for clowns.

that is alot of breeding pairs for a 90 gallon. the jewels wil get VERY aggressive when they breed, as will the others.

the blood parrots alone will fully stock the tank.

the jewels im getting have already bred a couple of times in my cousins tank which has a couple of blood parrots and a pair of zebras among other cichlids and this tank is considerably smaller than mine. they did no harm to these other cichlids nor were too aggressive. do you think once they have lots of space and lesser fish to contend with they will be more aggressive or will it be the other way round? And do you think along with these cichlids I should only do with just one pair of parrots? thanks for your suggestions

[helios99]

and instead of loaches do you think Cories would be able to do well if they have enough hiding places? otherwise what should i have as bottom dwellers/ cleaners?

[krytan]

Krytan, these fish that im getting have being doing quite well together in my cousin's tank for a while now. some have bred a couple of timnes as well. but do you still think they wouldnt be able to coexist?
There are exceptions to the rule but they shouldn't be keept together.


the jewels im getting have already bred a couple of times in my cousins tank which has a couple of blood parrots and a pair of zebras among other cichlids and this tank is considerably smaller than mine. they did no harm to these other cichlids nor were too aggressive. do you think once they have lots of space and lesser fish to contend with they will be more aggressive or will it be the other way round? And do you think along with these cichlids I should only do with just one pair of parrots? thanks for your suggestions
The blood parrots will grow to 8" and 4 of them would fill a 90g, also a breeding pair of cichlids can take over the whole tank.


and instead of loaches do you think Cories would be able to do well if they have enough hiding places? otherwise what should i have as bottom dwellers/ cleaners?
Corys are not sutable either, i would put a nice pleco in with your cichlids.

[kay-bee]

....This is how i have been planning to stock it:

2 pairs of Blood red parrot Cichlids (small)
A pair of Jewel Cichlids
A pair of Zebra Cichlids
A pair of Snow White cichlids (?)
...I would highly appreciate any suggestions and advice regarding the stocking and keeping of these fish. And any tips from someone with experience regarding these fish... do you think there would be any room for a single small firemouth that my cousin has no place for?

I recommend selecting a single GROUPING of cichids stock with only cichlids belonging to that group.

I recommend selling/trading the parrots and jewels, bypass the firemoutn, and stocking the tank with just mbuna species (which the zebra and snow white pseudotropheus socolofi are).

Due to their social nature, mbuna's prefer to be in groups. Also mbuna's are harem or polygamous breeders and don't tend to do well in pairs. So rather than get two (which might be 1m/1f, or 2m or 2f) get 1 male per several females per species (example 1 male zebra, 3 female zebras, 2 male snow white socolofi's and 4 female snow white socolfi's, etc).

In a 90gal you would stock 15-25 mbuna's (subject to variables).

[BigFishKeeper]

I wouldn't mix africans with american cichlids. They will fight each other. Heres some cichlids I suggest for ya:
Blue Acras
1 Oscar
green terror
Jack Dempsey
blood parrots.
That would be a good tank!

[Rbishop]

The bottom cleaner will be you with a gravel vac....

[Barbie]

The reason they are saying to avoid mixing those fish is because they have totally different social structuring. The africans are fighting for space and their territory, the south americans are fighting for dominance. Every time they leave the fight they both think they won and can't figure out why the other fish is not abiding by their "rules" so they get more pissed and the fight is on all over again.

You would be WAY happier in the long run stocking the tank with fish that will get along long term. I've never seen anyone keeping a breeding pair of jewels with other fish for very long. They are the best parents in the world, which equates to making the lives HELL of anything that can't get out of that glass box and get away. Red zebras don't pair bond, so if it is a male and a female he'll eventually chase her to death. In his world, if she enters his territory, she's ready to spawn. In that tank, she can't get out because you kept a lid on it so she's pretty much at his mercy and unable to "put out" nearly often enough to suit him.

I do have to disagree with one point. Clown loaches are not helpless and they do great in tanks with Africans with the same dietary needs. I don't recommend them to go with mbuna, but they do great with yellow labs and peacocks. I have some that are 7 years old in a 240 with Rainbows, green tiger barbs, and a few other fish in the wall of my store. People are amazed how much the clowns come out and swim around.

As to needing different water parameters, I personally think people worry too much about that. My tap water comes out at 7.8 and everything in the house and shop live in it. I acclimate them slowly, be sure there's never any ammonia present, and I have fish spawning constantly. There is always more than one way to get the results you want. Stability for the fish, IMO, is far more important than exactly matching the pH of the water they were caught in. With that said, I wouldn't dream of letting my pH get below 7.5 for my wild colony of moba frontosa, but my tank raised discus are doing just great in my tap water. I do have an RO unit that I regularly use for spawning my plecos, but IME, it's the fluctuation of the TDS, not the pH that works as a trigger.

Barbie

[BigFishKeeper]

Good Info Barbie!!! The africans would catch ick and spread dieases!

[soonerfan121]

I have seen tanks set up with both african cichlids and american but I am not sure how long they will coexist with each other. Right now I have a 125 set up that has mostly south american cichlids with the exception being a single male jewel. He has been in the tank with the other fish since I set up a cichlid tank, 3 years ago, and I have never had a problem with him being aggressive. He will defend his territory, but is not the primary aggressor. I would say that if the fish have been in a tank together without any problems for some time then they should be just fine. It might be helpful though to keep a hospital tank handy just in case. For a bottom feeder the common pleco is probably your best bet and yes cichlids do eat plants, they also like to dig in the gravel and some of them even rearrange the decor more to thier liking. I love my cichlids and wouldnt ever go back to just tropicals. They seem to have thier own personalities and just watching them is entertaining as well as relaxing. Hope this helps

[Coler]

Red zebras don't pair bond, so if it is a male and a female he'll eventually chase her to death. In his world, if she enters his territory, she's ready to spawn. In that tank, she can't get out because you kept a lid on it so she's pretty much at his mercy and unable to "put out" nearly often enough to suit him.

absolutely - zebras, like all mbuna, should be kept if keeping mixed gender in a ration of 1 male to at least 2 females, 3 would be better. I also agree that mixing Malawis/Tangs with SA and CA is definitely not reccomended albeit that, like all things, a certain amount of people who do it will get away with it, sometimes for a long time, given a big enough tank, starting them young and getting lucky with the fish.


I do have to disagree with one point. Clown loaches are not helpless and they do great in tanks with Africans with the same dietary needs. I don't recommend them to go with mbuna, but they do great with yellow labs and peacocks. I have some that are 7 years old in a 240 with Rainbows, green tiger barbs, and a few other fish in the wall of my store. People are amazed how much the clowns come out and swim around.

I don't personally have experience with clown loaches, but I know that there is a wide body of opinion to the effect that they should not be kept with Malawis. All I will say about the labs is that they are also Mbuna, albeit one of the less aggressive species; still a world of difference as compared to barbs, rainbows etc of course.


As to needing different water parameters, I personally think people worry too much about that.

I completely agree


Good Info Barbie!!! The africans would catch ick and spread dieases!

Well, I don't know that that's the point...Africans with SA/CA are likely to beat up on the non-rift lake cichlids, which is stressful and can of course bring on disease, but subject to size and fish personality it is likely the Africans who will winning those fights. Of coure, stressed and beaten fish are more vulnerable to onset of disease.

[Barbie]

Young clown loaches without proper places to hide with fish larger than them, I definitely wouldn't recommend. Clown loaches the same size as the cichlids they're being kept with or larger do just great. I currently have some 6" clown loaches with my moba frontosa for snail control. The tank is acrylic and I lived in fear of grabbing an MTS and scrubbing the tank with it. I thought they might stress the moba out, so I was pretty attentive to them for a few weeks after they were added. Now, the loaches actually make the moba more forward, as they'll rush over to feed and bring the nervous cichlids with them. There has NEVER been so much as a nipped fin in that tank. It IS a 190 gallon aquarium. Tank size definitely plays a big part in how many rules you get to break, IMO. Fish that could never coexist in a 90 gallon, have no problem in a tank twice that size and so on.

While labs and peacocks are also Malawi cichlids, I've always found they have much lower aggression levels than rock grazing mbuna that have that territorial imperative. It's all about having enough of each species to diffuse aggression and enough room for them to get away from each other.

Barbie

[Coler]

Even frontosa are a whole different realm of aggression, as large and quite shy, tanganyikans, to Mbuna, which include the labidochromis species, or labs. Both Mbuna and Aulonocara have the territorial imperative.

I'm sure a bigger tank would help but I can see how fronts will not bother the loaches, as they are really quite timid, whereas Mbuna, including labs, are more likely to go for them, and the loaches will simply have no answer if so.

[Barbie]

Have you ever seen the cheek spines on a clown loach? I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. I can only relate my own personal experience in mixing the fish with no problem. Aulonocara and Labidochromis have a reproductive territorial imperative, but not the same one for defense of a feeding ground. Comparing them to algae grazing mbuna for aggression just isn't realistic, IME, or more people would attempt to mix them. Labidochromis caeruelus definitely fare badly when kept with Maylandia, Metriaclima, Pseudotropheus, or even Melanochromis. I've kept clowns with yellow labs and smaller peacocks for years in both maintenance tanks and tanks of customers, let alone my own and the displays. It's not just a simple one off. The clowns are never nipped or bullied and are easily able to maintain weight, IME. If you ever tried it, you would definitely see that clowns have no problem answering back when threatened!

Barbie

[helios99]

I would like to say a big thanks to veryone for sharing their valuable experience with me. Has helped me immensely. Just goes to show that if everyone were a little better informed through such helpful, this place would be a much better place for aquarium fish and consequently fish keepers.

Now onto my q's:

If I were to keep the Mbunas (zebras and s.w. socofolis) in the desired ratio 1:3 m/f, then how many exactly would you recommend me stocking the 90 gal with? Kaybee says 15-25 depending on variables, which variables exactly? and which other mbunas would be able to happily coexist with these 2 species in my tank?

And I were to decide on keeping the breeding pair of Jewels then what all would have to go? and what exactly can i keep with Jewels and how many?

Thank You Again!

[kay-bee]

....If I were to keep the Mbunas (zebras and s.w. socofolis) in the desired ratio 1:3 m/f, then how many exactly would you recommend me stocking the 90 gal with? Kaybee says 15-25 depending on variables, which variables exactly? and which other mbunas would be able to happily coexist with these 2 species in my tank?....

Variables include species compatibility, gender ratio, general and conspecific aggression level, quantity of mbuna's, and even lay out of the tank (quantity of hiding spots, breaks in line of sight, and even age of the initial fish, etc).

If stocking just the two species, you may want to go with 2m/6f to 3m/9f each (16-24 fish total). This may initially/potentially entail acquiring more than this and then removing (selling/trading/giving away) excess males as they reveal themselves (which may be the case if starting out with juvies as at that stage both genders are practically identical).

If planning to include additional species to this combination, you may want to go with just 2m/6f for both the red zebras and socolofi's. Both species are pretty much compatible with nearly every other mbuna species (I'll stop short of saying 'happily coexist' as I don't believe that phrase exists in the mbuna vocabulary.. :headshake2: :)

You could add a less aggressive species (pseudotropheus acei) to this mix but keep them in a larger group (a dozen),

...or you could go with smaller groups of various species (each from a different genus) in groups of 1m/3f each (4 red zebras, 4 snow white socolofi, 4 yellow labs, 4 afra's, 4 rusties).

Many options. What other mbuna species are you interested in?

[ibr3ak]

Labidochromis caeruelus definitely fare badly when kept with Maylandia, Metriaclima, Pseudotropheus, or even Melanochromis.

Not necessarily true, given the opportunity labs will beat up on a more aggressive fish, while a melanochromis can be the tamest one out of a bunch. Different fish have different personalities, and will continuously fight for dominance nomatter the aggression level.

Not too long ago my yellow lab owned the tank, while an auratus was always shy and reclusive (I eventually traded him in because he wasn't aggressive enough). These days my rusty (who should be in a same category as a yellow lab) is constantly trying to beat up on red zebra and trewavasae, who are at least twice his size.

[helios99]

...or you could go with smaller groups of various species (each from a different genus) in groups of 1m/3f each (4 red zebras, 4 snow white socolofi, 4 yellow labs, 4 afra's, 4 rusties).

Many options. What other mbuna species are you interested in?

My LFS has recently got hold of half a dozen Pseudotropheus demasoni.We dont see a lot of them around here. How would they do with Zebras and sw socolofis? Anything I need to keep in mind with Demasonis?

[ibr3ak]

Yea to avoid them being overly aggressive you need to stock a colony of at least 12 dems. And depending on the size of your fish tank, if it's large enough they'll do fine with zebras and socolofis, considering.

[helios99]

Yea to avoid them being overly aggressive you need to stock a colony of at least 12 dems. And depending on the size of your fish tank, if it's large enough they'll do fine with zebras and socolofis, considering.

Like I mentioned the tank is 90Gal, 4 x 1.5 x 2 ft. And the lfs has only half a dozen. I guess I'll get them tomo. If you suggest otherwise, then im all ears.


After all the research and your valuable suggestions and feedback, here's how it finally looks like:

4 Zebras ( 1 male, 3 females)
4 Snow White Socolofis ( 1m :3f)
6 Demasonis (m:f ?) and
4 clown loaches

Cool?

[ibr3ak]

I've never kept any loaches, so I can't tell you if any of them will live with their eyes intact in an mbuna tank, and I would ideally go with at least a dozen dems (have you checked on aquabid?), so I can't say for sure if everyone will "coexist peacefully" (I know KB ;) ).

[krytan]

IMO a 90g is to small for clown loaches.

http://www.loaches.com/species-index/clown-loach-chromobotia-macracanthus

[BigFishKeeper]

UMMM........ Your stocklist would be good without the loaches. Maybe try a sydontis catfish!

[helios99]

I think I am going to do without the clown loaches, or i might just go with Barbie's advice on this one.
Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I am finally stocking my tank tomorrow and will be uploading pictures in a couple of days. You guys have been great help. Couldn't have done it without you. Wish me luck!

[Marinemom]

For a bottom dweller in an African tank, may I suggest either an angelica cat(they are just aggressive enough to co-exist with the Africans) or a bristlenose pleco. They have those whisker things that stick out and will potentially hurt an African if he gets too close. The Africans are smarter then that and usually will stay away.

Marinemom

[Barbie]

Synodontis angelicus get almost a foot and are a riverine cichlid. They are effectively able to protect themselves, but not nearly as well as clown loaches would. Bristlenose plecos aren't any better able to protect themselves than any other pleco. Loricariidae in general have odontodes that they use to deter attacks. Withstanding the aggression they deal with in cichlid tanks is more a case of being tank raised for generations and having less stress factors so it increases their survival rate, IME.

Anyone that has loaches getting too big for a 90 gallon tank will have NO problem getting rid of them. They're in huge demand. People try to buy the ones in my 240 gallon on a weekly basis.

Barbie

[BigFishKeeper]

You could also try a syndontis eurptis or a sydontis ocfiller. I have a tank with 4 eurptis and 4 ocfiller and these are my favorite catfish!

[Coler]

Have you ever seen the cheek spines on a clown loach? I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. I can only relate my own personal experience in mixing the fish with no problem. Aulonocara and Labidochromis have a reproductive territorial imperative, but not the same one for defense of a feeding ground. Comparing them to algae grazing mbuna for aggression just isn't realistic, IME, or more people would attempt to mix them.
Barbie

But.......labs are algae grazing mbuna with exactly the same aggressive inclinations as other Mbuna as to breeding and feeding territory albeit to a lesser degree to some of the true nutcases. And of course they can be mixed with other Mbuna, best practice being to overstock so that you don't have the extreme territorial behaviour because no one fish gets to claim an area. I absolutely wouldn't agree that Labs can be differentiated from other Mbuna as regards their behavioural traits, only as regards the degree to which they will exhibit them.

On the Clowns and the African mix agree to differ :)

Great bottom dweller for a rift lake tank is syndontis multipunctatus. Very nice looking fish, good personality, stays reasonable size, native to Lake Tanganyika and well able to look after itself.

[GusBus27]

My bristlenoses do just fine with african's, keep to themselves & when provoked puff out their little stingers on their cheeks & the fish leave'em alone. My Syno Eutuperus was really territorial, but I had him housed with SA cichlids. Never had a loach...