Sick Angels - What to use?

[abcdefghi]

I am almost certain that 2 of my angels are sick, one of them hides and swims very listlessly, looks like the fins are clamped, the other is more active, but sometimes clamps his fins. I have not seen either of them eat for a couple days (certainly not eating like they used to do) I have seen one of them go after food, but spit it out, take it in again, spit it out and then ignore it.

I have tried feeding pellets, flakes, freeze dried + frozen/thawed bloodworm and nothing is getting them to eat.

There is some chasing in the tank, but it is usually between the other angels and not these 2. The one who is hiding the most I have not seen chased at all.

I believe that they may have some kind of parasite, I am heading out to the LFS in a while, but not sure what to look for. A lot of medication I have seen is food based, but I am having a harder time finding something to dose in the water. Is metronidazole a good treatment? I am not sure what the LFS will carry, so am hoping to go there with a couple different medications to look for.

Thanks.

[Star_Rider]

first post the water parameters..it helps gicve a starting point.
the Sx appear to be very similar to internal parasitre infestation.
in recent years it has been pretty common in Angels.
the best treatment is to feed foods laced with anti parasite meds..gel tek or similar. if they are taking food and spitting it out they will ingest some of the meds.
if they are totally refusing food then,

you can start with Jungle parasite clear..since the fish are not eating a bath is the next delivery method.
they should be treated for about 24 -48 hrs..you can retreat after a 25% water change.
if the meds are effective it may take a fewe days for the fish to recover enough to eat.

now comes another issue..some parasites may return in 2-4 weeks..you may have killed the adults or atleast effected them enough to drop out of the host(they will usually dies without a host) but many release eggs while they are in the host..the eggs pass out ,usually with expelled waste.
in essence the tank can reinfest. you may need to redose in 2-3 weeks even if the fish appear healthy.

[abcdefghi]

Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates less than 10....... PWC of at least 25% twice a week. I think since one of them does not appear to be eating at all, and the other one most of the time simply looking at food I will try the Jungle parasite clear.

[Mij]

Hexamit or a copper based med will work also. Just be careful not to overdose on the copper. Also copper stays in the water and on any tank docorations for a while, but if you follow the medication instructions it works very well.

[Star_Rider]

jungle parasite clear has metro and prazi..

it may atlast get the fish to a point where they eat and it's a good course to follow.

the fish tend to handle the treatment well.

here is alink with meds and pics of some parasites.



http://www.sunrisetropicals.com/id11.html

[abcdefghi]

I picked up some Jungle Parasite clear, some Jungle Intra-Para (internal parasite meds) and also some Jungle medicated food. Will dose the tablets later today, and then hope they pull through.

[Star_Rider]

FYI I had a large male adult go 3 weeks with no food with internal parasites..so don't panic

[Rbishop]

I would be interested in what size tank and what other tankmates...any new fish or have you had them all for a while...?

[abcdefghi]

I would be interested in what size tank and what other tankmates...any new fish or have you had them all for a while...?

55G no other tankmates and been in the tank for 3 weeks now (and tank was fishless cycled).

I moved the 2 who were not eating into my 10G hospital tank last night, unfortunately I think it was too late for one of them, and the extra stress of moving was the straw to break the camels back. He was OK Friday but deteriorated quickly over the weekend, before I put him in the hospital he was being blown about by the current, sticking to the filter intake tube, falling over, breathing very slowly etc I considered euthanising him at one point.

After I took him out of the hospital tank I gave him a good look under some bright light to see if anything looked out of the ordinary. The only thing that looked out of place was how thin he was, so I am guessing he had not been eating longer than I had noticed.

The 1 angel now in the hospital is looking OK, I treated the tank with the Jungle parasite clear tabs, and will probably treat again tomorrow evening. Hopefully by then he will be eating enough that I can give him the medicated food I have.

I also am putting the 3 angels in the 55G on the medicated food for 4 weeks as directed by the package. They have grown hugely compared to the 2 veil angels, and still eat like pigs, but I want to be certain they are OK. They spat out the medicated food, but hopefully over the 4 week course the medication will ensure they are fine.

I keep wondering if the 2 veils I got were from a bad batch, the 3 regular angels eat like pigs, have grown a huge amount and are constantly on the move. The 2 veils in the same amount of time hardly grew at all (which could mean they were infected with parasites from the store). I did not think to treat them when I first bought them, but think as a preventative measure (along with QT) it will be something I consider in the future.

Fingers crossed I can nurse the other veil back to eating like a pig and growing like a weed.

[boofish2]

Sorry about the one who didn't make it. Jungle tabs worked great for me but I did do a second preventative doseage a couple of weeks after the first. So you haven't seen any white stringy material coming out of the angel? Or any jerky movements?
I would try to stay away from Coppersafe as it will stay in your tank a very long time and effect very negatively any inverts or plants you might have currently. Good luck!!

[DavidZ]

We all go though these cases now and then, I would listen to what Star_rider has to say, he helped me out many times.
I used Jungle Parasite Clear many times and it does work, it is safe to use.
Good luck

[Star_Rider]

unfortunatley angels as of late have been prone to internal parasites..usually atttributed to the breeding facility.
it is the main reason I treat all new fish with anti parasite meds. using metro,prazi and levamisole.
flubendazole is very effective as is fenbendazole. one of the meds actually destroys the eggs.
hang in there. and keep an eye out. keep in mind that the fish may have been harassed. I recently removed a Bolivian ram female that had been picked on and a female wild scalare. they are both in the hosptial tank and both refused eating..I treated with normal anitparsite course I use. it took a week buyt they are now both eating. and gaining strength..
they now hang out together and swim together..weird combination..angel mid level and the ram on the botom following her around..
they are now inseperable.

[DavidZ]

How does Ultra Cure PX (Gel-Tek) by Aquarium Products compare with Parisite Clear by Jungle?

[Star_Rider]

gel tek is fed to the fish while parasite clear is added to the water.. the food delivery method is more effective.
but the gel tek , I believe, only contains metro and prazi.
jungle anti parasite food has these plus levamisole..so it would target more parasites including camillanus and capillaria.

[abcdefghi]

gel tek is fed to the fish while parasite clear is added to the water.. the food delivery method is more effective.
but the gel tek , I believe, only contains metro and prazi.
jungle anti parasite food has these plus levamisole..so it would target more parasites including camillanus and capillaria.

I am using the Jungle anti parasite food on the 3 angels who are still eating (more of a preventative measure incase they became infected from the angel who died and the one who is now in the hospital) but they just spit the food out.

I have not fed them anything other than medicated food for 2 days (the directions say to only feed medicated for 3 days) but know that these 3 still eat like they have been starved. Is it just that they do not like the taste of the medicated food? and even though they are spitting it out are they getting enough of the medication?

I plan to do a 25% water change on the hospital tank today and then use a 2nd does of Jungle parasite clear, should this likely be enough to then start trying to feed the angel in the hospital again? Should I first try some regular food to see if he/she will eat? or go straight to using medicated food even if he/she spits it out?

I am going on vacation in a couple days, and have someone coming over to check/feed the fish but want to leave them as healthy as possible before I go so trying to cover all my bases.

[Star_Rider]

generally, when you suspect internal parasites it is best to treat the maintank.


yes they will get the meds if they spit the food out..and treat for the entire dose recommended on the label.


the problem with parasites is the life cycle of the parasite..they may carry the parasite while not displaying the Sx(symptoms).


remember you may need to retreat in 2-3 weeks.

[abcdefghi]

generally, when you suspect internal parasites it is best to treat the maintank.


yes they will get the meds if they spit the food out..and treat for the entire dose recommended on the label.


the problem with parasites is the life cycle of the parasite..they may carry the parasite while not displaying the Sx(symptoms).


remember you may need to retreat in 2-3 weeks.

Cool, it sounds like I am doing everything as I should. I treated the main tank with Jungle Parasite clear, but also treated the hospital tank (and plan to retreat today as per directions of retreating after 48 hours). The angels in the main tank are eating, so I am giving them the medicated food as a preventative measure, and will hopefully get the hospital tank angel eating as well.

Will put a reminder somewhere to treat again in 2-3 weeks.

[Star_Rider]

:thumbsup:

[DavidZ]

Does it help to put liquid garlic on the medicated food(for taste)?

[abcdefghi]

Does it help to put liquid garlic on the medicated food(for taste)?

I might try the garlic route, at the moment though I am trying to figure out what to do before I leave on vacation. I have 1 angel in the hospital tank who is not eating, I have given this 2 treatments of parasite clear.

The 3 in the main tank are eating, I gave them a 3 day (preventative) treatment of medicated food. Since losing 1 veil and moving another to the hospital I am sure the aggression has gone up with the 3 in the main tank.

Now, I can't do daily water changes on the hospital tank for the next 10 days as I am away. I don't want to not try feeding the angel in there (and since he/she is so small I do not want to not feed for 10 days), but at the same time I don't want for food to be settling on the bottom that he/she is not eating (and possibly causing an ammonia build up). So, do I wait another 24 hours (as long as I can wait) and then move the angel back into the main tank? at least in there its not such a small space for food to build up, and the other 3 will eat food. Maybe the extra cover will help getting the angel in the hospital to eat? (the hospital tank is pretty exposed).............. so what do I do? do I leave the angel in the hospital until I can get it eating? not sure if that will happen in the next 24 hours........... do I move it back to the main tank? (if I do this then I have the worry that it takes a turn for the worse, or infects the other 3)........... blah........... why did this have to happen now?

Any advice on what the best option is would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Star_Rider]

you're in a tough spot.
moving an ailing fish to the main tank may leave it open to attack.
also it may take a week or more before the fish starts eating again.
is there any swelling in the stomach? if there is it is possible for parasites to expire and remain in the stomach,,in these cases you will want to try and hlp the fish expell the parasite..usually epsom salt dips work.

I had a bolivian ram get this..it is alive and started eating it is sharing a 10 hospital tank with an angel that had similar Sx.

how is the cycle doing in the hospital tank?

if it's good you can try feedin prior to leaving and see what happens.

[abcdefghi]

you're in a tough spot.
moving an ailing fish to the main tank may leave it open to attack.
also it may take a week or more before the fish starts eating again.
is there any swelling in the stomach? if there is it is possible for parasites to expire and remain in the stomach,,in these cases you will want to try and hlp the fish expell the parasite..usually epsom salt dips work.

I had a bolivian ram get this..it is alive and started eating it is sharing a 10 hospital tank with an angel that had similar Sx.

how is the cycle doing in the hospital tank?

if it's good you can try feedin prior to leaving and see what happens.

Its odd that the aggression has gone up in the main tank, but I understand that a weak fish may be seen as a target by the other fish in there. There is no swelling in the stomach, in fact the fish looks very thin (especially compared to the 3 in the main tank).

The cycle in the hospital tank is fine (don't have numbers as I have not tested yet), but I run a filter on my main tank that I move over to the hospital tank (10G) when needed. The daily WC on the hospital is really because I have read that very clean water helps with healing a lot of things.

I think I will go with leaving it in the hospital tank, and feeding something like every other or every third day. I don't want to run the risk of infecting the main tank, and hopefully with light feeding for 10 days the hospital tank will be OK. Maybe I am being overly nervous about leaving the fish, it took me a long time to get the 55G up and running (and when the 10G was my only tank something infected and killed everything in there) and having already lost 1 out of the 5 angels I am worried that something will happen and leave me with 0 fish again.

[DavidZ]

Here is something in addition that I found posted:
There are not any clear all products for parasites. The delivery methods are different for external and internal parasites. Usually all meds are dosed in the water but this can be costly. I feed my fish meds for internal parasites.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DO IS FIND OUT WHICH PARASITES YOU HAVE! Don't try 1 medication, then another, and then another because you will lose fish in this manner. I use a microscope to verify by doing gill and scale scrapings or collecting feces. YES I HAVE CHECKED FISH POO WITH A MICROSCOPE.

Copper is a catch all anti-parasitic (external only) and algaecide but you seem to have learned that it is also lethal to fish. Formalin is very much the same, also for external parasites. Potassium Permanganate and Malachite Green are also used for external parasites.

Before you use copper to treat parasites you need to measure the total alkalinity of your water because the toxicity of copper to fish increases as the total alkalinity decreases. Take note alkalinity is different than pH and hardness.

use this equation as a rule of thumb

Total alkalinity in parts per million
------------------------------------ = Copper Sulfate needed in parts per million
100

Dont forget SALT

A dip in 3% salt water will effectively remove external parasites from freshwater fish. Most fish can stand a 30 sec - 10 min dip depending on species.

Internal parasites should be fed medications.

The recommended treatment for Hexamita is metronidazole. Metronidazole can be administered in a bath at a concentration of 5 mg/L (18.9 mg/gallon) every other day for three treatments. Medicated feed is even more effective at a dosage of 50 mg/kg body weight(or 10 mg/gm food) for five consecutive days.

Camillanus and Capillaria, can be treated with fenbendazole. This can be mixed with fish food at a rate of 0.25% for treatment. It should be fed for three days, and repeated in three weeks.

Cestodes or tapeworms can be treated with Praziquantel at 2 -- 10 mg/L for 1 to 3 hours in a bath.

[abcdefghi]

The angel in the hospital died while I was away, the 3 in the main tank are all fat and eating like pigs. Only thing with them now is the aggression appears to have gone up now the 2 veil tail angels have passed away.

Might be time to re-decorate the tank.