Convincing my gram: NO DISCUS! help!

[sillypony]

Hello!

My gram is one of those 'top off the water when it evaporates' people. She also thinks fish 'grow to the size of their tank.' I had actually been making progress with her, except that shes just darn stubborn, until all my fish got suddenly sick. Now my family is convinced water changes are ineffective and ridiculous. (your gram never does water changes, and her fish are fine... look at yours!)

Anyways, she wants to use a recently emptied 20l (british style?) for... discus! I'm looking for one article that will effectively dissuade her. I'm hoping if i can find one, she won't do it.

The article needs to cover:

need for soft water, low ph (ours is hard and high)
need for lots of room
being picky eaters
being very, very sensitive to water quality (mentioning daily w/c's is good)
and anything else that makes them sound difficult...

I'm hoping if i can send her one 'authoritative' source, she'll believe me and not get them. I've found a few great sources, but they all mention something that would give her hope (such as higher ph's being 'ok') or else they don't mention the tank size (thus leaving that wide open) etc.

I think if i convince her the discus would just die, that she will leave the tank empty, and not subject anymore fish to her awful care.


Anyone know of a good why-not-to-get-discus article?

thankies,
LeeAnna

[DLV082]

LeeAnna,

Send her the this site www.simplydiscus.com (http://www.simplydiscus.com) all they do is discus and some of the members are large breeders in the U.S. You can't get anymore experience in discus than some of the people on this site, and they will tell her that WC's are necessary to healthy fish etc.

Good luck.

[Marinemom]

I don't have an article for you but if all else fails, you can show her this thread.

Discus are a very high maintenance fish and only for very serious fish keepers willing to put lots of time and effort into the keeping of these beautiful gorgeous fish. They require a tank of no less then 75 gallons and the bigger the better. They are also schooling fish and require to be kept in groups of no less then five. They must all be added at the same time because they establish a pecking order from the get go and do not take kindly to the new fish on the block.This means they need to be maintained in an established and cycled tank that has been up and running with no serious problems fore at least a year. Again the longer the tank has been established the better. The temperature needs to be kept at a consistent 86-88 degrees on the farenheight scale and higher then that if they start to breed. Daily water changes are a must of at least 75-80 percent so topping off the tank for these delicate fish just will not suffice. Discus tend to be picky eaters and more times then not will only eat live black worms. My discus when I first got them refused to eat for eleven days. It is incredible how long they will hold out for the right kind of food or food to their liking.

Don't get me wrong. Discus are amazing fish but they need to be kept in the right environment or they will perish. They can die if you look at them the wrong way. I have kept discus for years and they are really gorgeous and spectacular fish. They are almost hypnotic to watch as they glide through the water. However, I cannot stress enough, they are very high maintenance fish and demand optimal care. Given the price of just one discus let alone a group of them, you just have to get it right from the beginning.

Marinemom

[crazycanuck]

ya if she really wants discus,help her learn about them and get a proper setup,a 55 would suffice. they are a beutiful fish

*edit* i definatly do not agree with the above post, NO fish requires a daily 80 percent water change,and discus will do fine even as a singleton. i kept a single discus for 3 years ,because i coudnt afford an entire school of the suckers,he was kept in a standard 30 gallon,with a 75 gallon HOB filter,and 30% weekly water changes,nitrates never above 15. he did absolutly fine in my 7.8 ph water as well

[Star_Rider]

actually canuck they are a schooling species and while yours did fine for 3 years it was probably not able to express itself as they do in a larger school.

the hardiness of the species has improved from the days of the first wild discus introduced to the aquaria world. at that time on ly the best keepers were successful at keeping them ultimately they were successful breeding the wilds to generations of tank bred discus that can adapt to a wide range of pH.

they do best in very clean water and breed best in low pH(acidic) water but can be kept in a much higher pH.

that said..clean water is essential to the proper maintenance of the species as they will thrive in clean water.
one thing to keep in mind is the physiology of the fish.. it has a large body and small internal organs..as a result they have adapted by becoming foragers..they should be fed at least 3X daily and younger fish even more so ..to achieve their full potential.
the result of this many feedings is more waste which is counter acted by more water changes.
while breeders may do 80-100% water changes you should be doing at least 2 weekly water changes of at least 30% with more being even better.

they should also be kept at higher than 'normal' water temps. the low range is around 82 my preference is 84+ young fish even higher at 86-88 .

they will require more maintenance and while they have become tolerant of less than pristine water..they will thrive in a much cleaner environment.

remember small water changes dillute the TDS less resulting in an eventual build up.

while discus can easily be kept by hobby fish keepers..they should also be well educated and practiced keepers.. the end result could be the loss of very expensive fish(average prices at fish stores-which do not have the best quality- is $40 for juveniles with some strains demanding much higher prices..)

[sillypony]

Thanks for the help all. Ill send on the information. I'll keep looking in hopes of an article that will dissuade her.

I'm sure discus are nice hobby fish, so don't think I'm against them. I just want to protect them from my grandmother. :D

Maybe a summary email will dissuade, but i think only a 'reputable' source has a chance.

LeeAnna

[Star_Rider]

LeeAnne,
she will find out the hard way if she continues the pursuit and does not improve her fish keeping skills.
Discus are expensive..if she want to fork out the money..you may just have tolet he do so.
but accentuate the tank size requirement..and the discus are schooling fish ..this may help..you did say 20l as in 20 liters??

no way is this recommended for a discus.

[Notophthalmus]

Perhaps you could show your grandmother some pictures of dollar or longear sunfish. They approach the color and pattern of discus, and are fairly hardy and easy to care for. 1 or 2 dollars would be OK in a 20 gal.

[tonytheboss1]

:wall: I know the feeling & I do sympathize. Here's a couple of things you can show to prove you're not just making this all up.
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1921&articleid=2214

http://www.discushatchery.com/discusprices.html (prices might get her attention.)

http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Symphysodon_aequifaciatus_haraldi.html

http://www.discus-fish-secrets.com/discuscare.htm

Hope some of this helps. Good luck, "T"

[crazycanuck]

star rider i agree with you,they are a schooling species,but so are oscars,pacu,jaguar cichlid,convicts..... how many people do you know have a school of oscars?? theres so much , hype,BS, i dont know lol around discus,there not this magical fish impossible to take care of .. however i do agree with you guys in the topic of grandma not getting discus,it can be done in a 20,i know people who do it,but with large water changes and experiance in aquariums.... if grandma insists in discus,help her setup a larger tank,they are well worth it,i think the most beutiful FW fish,and lots of personality. :)

[Arakkis]

This might sound mean but let her do it, it'll be dead in a couple of weeks and she'll never do it again

[Marinemom]

This might sound mean but let her do it, it'll be dead in a couple of weeks and she'll never do it again

If the situation can be avoided then it should. Hence, this thread.

I cannot stress enough that these fish are schooling fish and more times then not they will not do well by themselves or just two of them. One will become dominant over the other and one will die leaving one and then that one will die. I said they need such large daily water changes because they do. That is of course if you want what is best for the fish. I always am working in my discus tank because they just do not fare well in less then perfect water and will just wither away. I realize some people may keep them in less then desirable conditions like a tank that is too small for them or not enough water changes, but that doesn't mean they are doing great in those conditions.

I only mean to say that discus are not a beginner fish and require more then what the average person can or is willing to do. If you are up for the challange of caring for these beautiful and amazing fish then go for it. However, I do think that grandma doesn't know what she is getting herself into.

Marinemom

[Star_Rider]

crazycanuk, I have seen ocscars and pacu's in tanks and in schools..really big tanks.
Discus are not as large and you need only a 55 to keep a school of them ;)


Grams in this case is he#@ bent on getting discus one can only giver her the information and hope for the best..ultimately she may decide to try it and may be ok with the loss of money.

heck who knows..she may actually be successful...yeah right..but ya never know. ;)

[Sportsnutim]

Not being a total professional these are my first Discus fish and I have had really good luck "happy fish" other than the "Discus fry" part which I am working on. I change my water once a week 1/3 of the tank size keep my ph low 6.0-6.4 water temp at 80-84. My fish have been doing extremely well. 55 gal with 5 max on discus does well no more for me anyway. I don't refill the tank when it gets low: could cause ph shock. I just put fresh water with the correct chemicals "exact" amounts.

[Inka4040]

Just because Jack Wattley says it must be so, doesn't mean that discus absolutely need daily water changes. Mine have bred quite successfully with weekly water changes, and to ask someone to do daily 80 or 90% waterchanges is a bit excessive and un-neccesary. Of course, they will do very well with daily water changes, but most of us are not running a discus hatchery, or large scale breeding operations. Maybe if you were rasing fish for show, or had an automatic water change system, it's a feasible thing, but this myth that discus must have daily water changes should go with a LONG list of qualifiers, cause it's only true in very extreme situations.

[Marinemom]

My discus thrive with daily water changes and they show their colors off beautifully. I am not here to argue with anyone on weather or not discus should have daily water changes. I am with the group that says it is in the best interest of the discus if they do have daily water changes but then again that is just me. If you go to any discus site, you will find that the recommendation on the whole for discus is daily water changes.

People will do as they see fit for the fish they are keeping and for me that means my discus (as I believe all discus should have) get daily water changes and I believe they are that much happier for it.

Marinemom

[wataugachicken]

okay people. . . the point that we can all agree on here is that one discus should not be kept in a 20g long tank by a person who thinks that stunting is a good thing and topping off evaporated water is all you need to do. to maintain a tank. regardless of this-or-that pH, schooling needs, or daily/weekly water changes, it's not an ideal situation for any fish to be put into.

[crazycanuck]

okay people. . . the point that we can all agree on here is that one discus should not be kept in a 20g long tank by a person who thinks that stunting is a good thing and topping off evaporated water is all you need to do. to maintain a tank. regardless of this-or-that pH, schooling needs, or daily/weekly water changes, it's not an ideal situation for any fish to be put into.

agreed :)

[terror spawnin]

For the love of god...get your grams a 55 gallon set up..they are cheap. Just surprise her with it along with a fake tear or whatever. She will love it because she will think she can get more fish. It is a win-win situation!

And for the daily water changers...get a canister filter a little oversized for your tank. It will do wonders. You only need to do everyday water changes if you have no filter at all.
The lfs's you buy your discus from do not do daily water changes because they have good filtration. They run canister filters and change their water weekly.

[sillypony]

:wall: I know the feeling & I do sympathize. Here's a couple of things you can show to prove you're not just making this all up.
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1921&articleid=2214

http://www.discushatchery.com/discusprices.html (prices might get her attention.)

http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Symphysodon_aequifaciatus_haraldi.html

http://www.discus-fish-secrets.com/discuscare.htm

Hope some of this helps. Good luck, "T"

Tony- Thank you so much! That is exactly the kind of help I was looking for. I sent her a couple of those links (the ones that made it sound the hardest ;) ) and will keep looking for more to flood her mailbox with.




okay people. . . the point that we can all agree on here is that one discus should not be kept in a 20g long tank by a person who thinks that stunting is a good thing and topping off evaporated water is all you need to do. to maintain a tank. regardless of this-or-that pH, schooling needs, or daily/weekly water changes, it's not an ideal situation for any fish to be put into.

Thank you for stating that. I'm sure discus are GREAT fish, and aren't THAT hard to keep. That's not the point. The point is my gram is NOT capable of keeping them. She hasn't done a water change on her oscar/pleco tank since before christmas. Thus I'm trying to spare the discus the pain and my gram the expense of this stupid experiment of hers.

And letting her kill them won't work- she'd in all likelihood buy some more.


quote=terror spawnin;1400404]For the love of god...get your grams a 55 gallon set up..they are cheap. Just surprise her with it along with a fake tear or whatever. She will love it because she will think she can get more fish. It is a win-win situation!

And for the daily water changers...get a canister filter a little oversized for your tank. It will do wonders. You only need to do everyday water changes if you have no filter at all.
The lfs's you buy your discus from do not do daily water changes because they have good filtration. They run canister filters and change their water weekly.[/quote]


Terror- you're kidding right? She doesn't do ANY water changes, for one thing. So even the best filtration isn't going to keep the fish alive. And I definitely don't have time to take care of her billions of animals as well as my own.
And a 55 set up isn't "cheap." At least not in my book. Working my way through college, I can hardly afford to drop a couple hundred dollars on a tank, especially since it would be used as yet another torture chamber for fish. If I could afford that, I'd upgrade my own instead, or any other number of things. Hell, a 55 set up (plus canister filter) wouldn't be cheap in my gram's book either. Which is probably part of why she wants to put discus in a 20 gallon in the first place.



Anyways, thank you everyone for the help. I didn't mean to incite a near-riot. I'm not bashing discus, i'm bashing my gram's fish keeping skills. The only reason I didn't just use the articles I found on my own is that they all had ONE detail that would totally defeat the purpose (like listing 20g as ok, or saying theyre 'not so hard' etc. She'd read the encouraging parts and forget the rest)

So, thanks again, i'll let ya know if it works, and more articles are always of interest if you stumble across one! Hey, maybe if i don't convince her NOT to get them, she'll at least do water changes every so often or upgrade the tank...

[crazycanuck]

something you could do is get grams to get a couple fish like german ram,or other tough to care for fish,that arent 80 dollars,and she could improve her fishkeeping skills on them... just a suggestion,id like to see grams get discus,they are a beautiful and very rewarding fish to own,but i understand your concern.

[sillypony]

Well, I think i've convinced her, at the very least, to put it off to the 'distant' future. So, maybe she'll forget about the idea by then.

Canuck- if i thought she would ever improve that much, i'd try it. But right now, -sigh- she just has WAY too many animals already. Some people just don't know when to quit.

My goal this summer is to try to get her tanks some plants to help with nitrate consumption. At least then the poor fish won't be QUITE so miserable. And to convince her that cycling really exists... lol (its either laugh, or cry).


Thank you all so much for the help. It would have been SO sad watchin past such pretty fish, knowing how limited their days were.

[Lupin]

At least, you did your best, sillypony.:)