View Full Version : NC lionfish?!?
kreblak
08-25-2003, 8:07 AM
Anyone remember the clownfish found over a wreck outside Portsmouth, VA? Well, read on...this story was taken from a NC local news station's website:
Poisonous Tropical Fish Found Again Along N.C. Coast
POSTED: 6:58 a.m. EDT August 25, 2003
Scientists have come across a poisonous tropical fish off North Carolina's coast for the second consecutive summer.
Ann Marie Necaise, a researcher with the North Carolina National Estuarine Research Reserve, says that worries scientists because lionfish aren't supposed to be in these waters.
Divers found about ten lionfish Tuesday in water about 60 miles off of Wrightsville Beach.
The fish are native to the warm Pacific and Indian oceans and their featherlike spines pack a painful punch.
The lionfish's venom can produce abdominal pains in people, but it rarely kills them.
Ken Sulak, a researcher with the U.S. Geological Survey, says the tropical fish might be able to survive in the deep waters because, unlike shallower waters, temperatures remain relatively constant.
Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
ChilDawg
08-25-2003, 9:59 AM
Originally posted by kreblak
Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Hey, Kreblak, this isn't a flame, but I would recommend that next time, you don't include this part...it makes you look like a scofflaw.
On a lighter note, I keep seeing articles about that, and there have been Lions as far north as Mass., I believe. That's annoying...and damaging to our hobby. If you want a lionfish, you should probably get one soon before they get legislated out of the hobby and PETA claims another victory over our beleaguered pastime.
OrionGirl
08-25-2003, 11:20 AM
Depends on how the lions got there.
ChilDawg
08-25-2003, 11:59 AM
Last summer they were attributed to either hobbyist release or fish farm barrier failure, I believe.
OrionGirl
08-25-2003, 12:07 PM
Yep, I heard about that. Problem is--one or two won't generate a breeding colony. To have a breeding colony develop, you need more than I think could be accounted for by releases, especially with SW. With FW, lots of people get a tank, throw some fish, get bored, and toss them. This is rarely the case with SW--the initial costs are high enough that most people take their time, research, learn about thier fish, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but I just don't think it's a high enough percentage to result in the release of that many lions.
The same article that blamed hobbyists also claimed that lions 'speared fish with their spines', so I didn't consider them a viable source on information.
ChilDawg
08-25-2003, 12:27 PM
Oh, I forgot about that part of the article...it's unfortunate that people publish **** like that and somehow it's okay...and, somehow, people get the wrong idea about people and animals within our hobby and want to ban them!!! :mad:
VoodooChild
08-25-2003, 1:33 PM
lions 'speared fish with their spines',
Lol. And then casually lower the spines to their mouths and take a bite, like a sheesh-kabob! I don't see why this is such a big deal. 5 lions in the Atlantic, yet Petromyzon marinus and other Superior invaders cost us billions of dollars each year.
OrionGirl
08-25-2003, 1:40 PM
Yep, that's my opinion. I actually wrote them an email about the error, and they never responded--not so much as a form letter thanking me for writing. They didn't care.
Intentional introductions of fish that are much more detrimental to the environment are a bigger deal. Lions have a long life span, but until I see conclusive evidence, I don't see this as an introduction, much less an intentional one. The lions are no where near the threat that algaes, and many invertebrates represent.
I think this is a threat, because it's not the first time lions have been reported. Any idea how many or few you need to make a population?
Have a look at todays (or yesterdays FAQ's on wetwebmedia..... what are these Pacific urchins doing in the atlantic, and where did they come from This person also reckons she frequently sees groups of lions in wrecks in the atlantic...
www.atlantischarters.net
ChilDawg
08-26-2003, 7:43 AM
I'm not sure that numbers matter as much as concentration and proximity...OG can further answer that though...
OrionGirl
08-26-2003, 8:46 AM
A sustainable population would need only about 3-4, as long as you have a mix of genders. Fish don't suffer the immediate consequences of inbreeding like many mammals do, so the initial population canbe much smaller. However, that implies that they have the right conditions to breed, and as most hobbyists can tell you--the water that will keep a fish alive is not neccessarily the same water that the fish will breed in. For a tropical species, I doubt that they will reproduce with high levels of success in cold water. Fish eggs develop at a rate determined by the water they are in--cold water slows development, warm water speeds it up. The cooler water in this area will likely slow down the development of the eggs so much that few survive predation. Those that do survive will have a tough time making it to an adult stage, since the cooler water also slows juvenile development, and the juveniles will have to spend longer time finding appropriately sized foods and hiding than if they were in warmer waters. Lions are not good at hiding--the flowing fins are not easy to disguise, and the small fish are easy prey. Many people think that nothing eats lion fish--that's not the case. Juveniles in particular are food for many fish, including eels. At some point in time, everything is prey for something else.
The urchins are a different matter. They, and many other invertebrates, are brought into new areas by ships, where they then compete with the native fauna. Since the introduced species often lack a natural predator, they overwhelm the native populations and deplete an area of 'normal' forage for other native species. The rate of reproduction in molluscs and echinoderms is much different than that of fish, and they are more successful invasive species, in most cases.
Unfortunately my own , admittedly gut, feeling is that if temperature range is good enough for groups of lions to survive and feed effectively, it's good enough for them to breed. While temperature manipulations are the obvious tool for getting freshwater fish breed, I've never heard of temperature manipulation being needed to breed any of the few marines that are bred. I may well be wrong though.
Any idea how the lions would get there apart from hobbyist release. Urchins hitchhiking on ships isn't so convincing either, after all ships and whales have been travelling around for a long time with nothing happening, then all of a sudden....
ChilDawg
08-27-2003, 7:22 AM
Larval stages of many marine fish are planktonic, so it is possible to have brought them over in bilge water or something...
i live at the coast of n.c and have spoken to many people mostly divers that say there are many/many lion fish off our beaches, they say everytime they dive they see them. we have a huge port and several boat captains have said that alot of fish species and invertabras are brought in to the port from all over the world in builge water, sorry about the spelling, i have talked to port athorities and they also agreed that when a big tanker ship comes in they dump the excess water outa there buildge pumps to raise the ships so they can navigate the water ways to get to the port. after they load or unload the cargo they go back off shore and pump the water back in so the ships are more stable in the open oceans. i have also talked to local parks dept and marine scientiest div, and they both agreed that the only way such a population of lion fish has developed was from ships buildge pumps. we are talking many hundred of thousands of gallons of water that carry eggs, small fish and organiusims.
i seriously doubt that anyone cld have relesed so many fish that we now have such a huge population over time,
remember this is happining all over the world , what they bring here they also return our = n.c. water back to there home ports.
just my 2 cents ..
knowy
The US recently passed a law preventing ships from dumping their ballast water in US ports. I don't remember exactly what the limit was but I think that it was either the 200 mile limit or 50 miles with some exceptions. There was a big write up about it in national geo this month. Some of it's scary like in San Francisco where they didn't find ANY native species in some of the samples. There was also a European tunicate found in Boston harbor last year that could have migrated anytime in the last 400 or so years but didn't. Scary stuff .
FloridaBoy
03-04-2005, 1:31 PM
Hmmm, it's all one big ocean anyway. I know it's not enviro/politically correct to say (so save your flames) BUT; with all the continuous development/siltation/pollution/phosphates, etc. etc. I think a population of Pterois is our least concern. Heck, here in Florida with all the Peacock Bass, Oscars, Tilapia, Cuban Tree Frogs, Green Iguanas, Hydrilla, Hyacinths, etc, etc, they would fit right in!!! :thud:
PS.- Here's a link to more info, it's old news really.
http://www.invasivespecies.gov/ismonth/archives/lionfish/lionfish.html