Africans vs. South Americans

[Lansirill]

They both have winter during the wrong time of year (that goes for you too Australians) but other than that what are the big differences? I'm pretty sure I'm going with SA Cichlids as I have an angel and a pair of keyholes that would otherwise need a home just for themselves, but before I put the final nail in the coffin I'd like to know what the differences are. As far as I can tell (other than water requirements, which while important, aren't a very interesting way to choose fish) the big differences are that SAs tend to be larger, aggression ranging from quite peaceful to absolute terrors, and a little less colorful, while the Africans tend to be smaller, more colorful, and more or less aggressive little *******s. Does either group display more interesting behavior than the other? Does either group tend to take more interest in what's going on outside of the tank? Does either group have a bit more 'Wow, you actually have some of those?' cred? Does, er, either group throw better parties? I'm kindof out of questions I suppose.

(For efficiencies sake, I'm looking at sevs, geos, and (peaceful) acaras to go with my angel and keyholes. Seems like it should be an interesting tank, although not really a biotope tank.)

[Lady G]

What size is this tank?

I have had both. Really, I couldn't say which I liked better as they were all wonderful fish.

The Africans were way more colorful, and I got many compliments on them, they were very nice to watch...and IME more aggressive then my SA are. I believe I have an odd bunch though as everything I read on them say they are all aggressive fish. The SA pay way more attention to me then my African ever did, as soon as I walk in the room they are at the front of the tank swimming back and forth at me. They are much larger then my Africans since I have a Oscar, JDs, RD/midas and a RD...in a different tank I have sevs which are beautiful.

I think the mix you were looking at, would look nice together. I am not trying to discourage you from the Africans, cause I love em and miss mine...but if you already have SAs, unless you are wanting to set up a new tank, I would say stick with them.:)

[sg1]

Why choose? Keep em both, like the poster before me Ive got mixed communities. This is what I keep

125G tank

Central/South American
Red Devil
2 Jack Dempsies
Green Terror
3 Convicts

African/Mbuna
Ive got 13 of em in there all different kinds

Other:
Black Shark
RTBS Shark
Leperinus

I also have a smaller tank a 20G I use to grow my smaller guys before they go into the big tank:

Baby Red Devil (will end up in the big tank)
2 Baby Frontosa's (Will end up in the big tank)
3 Tiger Barbs
2 Glass Fish


I couldnt choose either, so I chose both! Plus a few others:)

[nickmcmechan]

like the previous 2 i have both and experience exactly the same as lady g

the only differential is that, imo, the min tank size for sa tends to be around 50g for most, whereas for africans the min tank size is around 75g

now, that is a generalism as there are noteable exceptions, such as sa dwarfs and malawi shell dwellers, however whats your size of tank?

[Lansirill]

I'll probably be starting with a 55G and upgrading to a 75G (maybe bigger, depends on how the money is then) in a year or so if (when) I need the extra space. I might go straight to the 75, but I need to see how much more that will run me and how much of a hassle it would be. especially since I think I would need to have the 75 delivered.

I thought about mixing things up a bit, Africans and SA, assuming I stuck to hardy species that really won't care too much about the water conditions other than being clean, but I like the idea of having something a bit more (for lack of a better word) themed. I thought about going so far as to do Discus, Uaru, and Angels since they all occur together in nature, but I decided it would be -way- too much work and that with my current level of experience I'd probably be just as likely to kill the fish as not. I might try a peacock (they're pretty and hardy) but I think I'd rather stick to a single type.

If the SAs pay more attention to the outside of the tank then I'm definitely going to go that way. I've been wanting an Oscar because they're supposed to be so personable (I know an Oscar probably won't mix with my Angel or Keyholes) but, hey, if I can get that with some other fish I can be all Mission Accomplished. Sevs seem like a fairly good substitute.

Thanks. :)

[AfroCichlid]

I have had a blast with Tanganyikan Africans. Many of the smaller, Mbuna-sized Tangs are quite peaceful when compared to Malawi fish. They require less fish density to keep a peaceful balance, so there's not as much paring down of the roster as fish grow larger. There are many different niches that can share the same system: schoolers, mid and bottom fish, mouth-brooders, substrate spawners, and shell dwellers. Brichardi form groups in which the offspring of different generations will all care for the young together. Endearing trait. IME, if you keep Malawi Africans, you generally keep Mbuna or Aulonocara ( and or Haps ), but not the 2 together. With South Americans, there are many small, colorful fish that display great personalities. I prefer communities, and my favorites right now are the eartheaters of the Geophagus family.
They also make for an interesting contrast of biotopes if landscaped naturally. You can have a moderatley to heavily planted SA biotope, and then a rocky, reef style African tank. Either can make an awesome display, put my vote would be for Tangs over Malawis as far as Africans go.

[AfroCichlid]

Mbuna are very attentive to their owners. Watching the swarm of fish rush up to the top of a fully stocked 75 gallon is great. They will eat out of your hand, as will SA's. They're fairly even in owner-interaction. Peacocks are less personable, though many will eat from your hand.
Africans and South Americans come from extreme differences in water chemistry for the most part. Many SA cichlids come from very soft, acidic water, whereas most Africans hail from bodies of water that are very hard, with a PH of 8.0+. I would advise against mixing the two. SAs also have a way of backing down in a confrontation that to an African looks like a challenge. They're incompatible in their behavior as well.

[soonerfan121]

I have a SA tank and they are very personable. They come to the front of the tank anytime I walk into the room. They eat out of my hand and will even let you touch them in the tank. While they can be aggressive if you raise them from juveniles together there is less fighting going on. I would highly recommend SA fish they are wonderful and the right mix is very colorful too. Hope this helps

[Lady G]

Just want to clarify...I do not have both kinds in the same tank. Right now all I have are SA cichlids, but I have had Africans in the past, and will be setting up another soon.

Yeah, I forgot to mention how they will eat out of my hands! I love my SA!! They really are fun. Although a 55-75 may limit your choices..it would be good for the Sevs you were talking about but most likely just a pair if you have the Angels in there with them. Really you will not be able to keep much more then that in a 55 or 75 IMO. I can't say much about the Geos, since I have never kept them (although once my Pacu is gone, I may be looking into one).

I'd like to also add, if looking into the SAs, no Oscars, RD, Midas, Green devils...in the tank that size especially with the Angels.

I do think a pair of Sevs would be fine though...of coarse this is just my opinion.

Good luck!

[nickmcmechan]

i would also say that i have the South Americans and Africans in different tanks and I would never mix them

oscars would be great, you could keep a pair in a 75 but not much else

if your going for a 55 stick with the south americans

[ibr3ak]

You could quiet nicely keep mbuna in a 55 as well, I don't get why it's being resorted for SA's in this thread. A footprint of a standard 55 plus lots of rockwork and carefully chosen species would work, it has been done before :)

[Mij]

I've had both and liked both. One thing to consider is that south american cichlids will create far more bioload than african cichlids. My africans were very personable. Most cichlids are personable because they like to eat and they think that is what you are offering every time you come to the tank. Once they figure out you are not offering food they usually go back to what they were doing before you got there.

[lucy42083]

^^ I agree with ibr3ak. In fact, I think it is better to keep a bunch of mbuna in a 55 with lots of rockwork than to keep 1 single SA cichlid (of most species, certainly not all) in a 55 gallon. A 75 gallon would be like the bare minimum for an oscar, and maybe a 55 would be ok for a single JD or GT etc., with nothing else in the tank.

Most people don't like the idea of keeping 1 fish in a big tank, so that is the good thing about Africans, is that as long as you have great filtration and tank maintenance you can put quite a few of them in together - in fact it is recommended to 'crowd' them a bit, as this disperses their aggression and resembles how they live in the wild. Africans also are some of the most brightly colored FW fish.

SA cichlids, on the other hand, are not so much hyper-aggressive as Africans are, but are very territorial. This means it is extremely important not to crowd them, and in fact if you are to keep more than 1 successfully, usually you have to end up under-stocking for your biofilter so that they all have adequate territory and don't kill each other. But, my personal choice is SA all the way, because of what others have said - they are so personable and interactive. As soon as you come in the room, all their eyes are on you. They are really like a 'pet' so much more than any other fish I personally have experienced.

[Mij]

Its also easier to house ten african cichlids in a 55g than three or four south amercan cichlids. South American cichlids usually have more gerth and more aggression when adult than the africans. So you end up with one SA in the tank because he has claimed the whole thing for himself. SA are usually more brutal in their aggression than the africans are also, at least that has been my experience.

[Lansirill]

That's another question. if I went with the 55 and SAs, how much could I put in there? So far I've kept fish that are small enough to more or less manage the inch-per-gallon rule but one sev probably is the same amount of mass as, what, 20 bloodfins?

I'd like to keep a sev, an eartheater (I'm leaning towards a Satanoperca,) an acara or (if I don't put the angel and keyholes in there) maybe a jack (although that probably wouldn't work well with the Satanoperca anyways), some catfish, and them some dithers. I'd love to pair up the sev or the acara/jack as well. Would that work in a 55, or a 75? Is it even -close-? I'd think it would work, but then again I also thought that an Oscar would be just fine in a 55, so I probably should just avoid thinking. :)

[lucy42083]

LOL avoiding thinking is never a good idea. The inch-per-gallon rule is more or less crap, it is a good general guideline for really small fish, but for SA cichlids it's pretty useless I'd say.

In a 75, I think you could do a sev, a Satanoperca, and an acara with a couple (not huge) catfish and *maybe* some dithers if you have really good filtration. I think that a JD would probably be too aggressive for the other 3 SA cichlids that you listed in that size tank. A 55 I think would be kinda pushing it with the 3 cichlids and a catfish or two, but might work since the acara stays relatively small and they are all pretty peaceful. Definitely not with the dithers in a 55 though.

[sg1]

That's another question. if I went with the 55 and SAs, how much could I put in there? So far I've kept fish that are small enough to more or less manage the inch-per-gallon rule but one sev probably is the same amount of mass as, what, 20 bloodfins?

I'd like to keep a sev, an eartheater (I'm leaning towards a Satanoperca,) an acara or (if I don't put the angel and keyholes in there) maybe a jack (although that probably wouldn't work well with the Satanoperca anyways), some catfish, and them some dithers. I'd love to pair up the sev or the acara/jack as well. Would that work in a 55, or a 75? Is it even -close-? I'd think it would work, but then again I also thought that an Oscar would be just fine in a 55, so I probably should just avoid thinking. :)


Well Ive had jacks with severums in the past, worked out really well. My red devil did not tolorate my sev at all though, I had to get rid of the severum to save him. Look, if you want a really colorful tank with one big centerpiece fish, Id recommend you go with a single red devil (my fav kind of cichlid) and a bunch of african cichlids to go around him. There are people on here that wont mix African and CA cichlids, I personally think its as short sighted at believing the world is flat lol but thats just me. Ive had successful mixed communities for the last 15 years, havent lost a fish to disease in over 10 years, and any fish Ive ever lost to agression was due to african on african or CA on CA voilence, the african cichlids and the CA cichlids hardley ever mix it up. Most of the Central american cichlids are too big and the africans know it and dont mess with them. Others CA/SA cichlids that are smaller like cons actually mix alot better with africans than most people think if you make sure you get all males so they dont pair off and breed, because when cons breed, they get NASTY! And africans are already territorial so you know how that would go! But anyway, go with the devil and put africans around him, you wont be sorry!

[KarlTh]

That's another question. if I went with the 55 and SAs, how much could I put in there? So far I've kept fish that are small enough to more or less manage the inch-per-gallon rule but one sev probably is the same amount of mass as, what, 20 bloodfins?



A lot more than that. Volume increases with the cube of length. A seven inch Severum, around four times the length of a Bloodfin, is therefore 4^3 = 64 times the volume of the Bloodfin - or would be, were it not a bulkier fish all over. I'd guess the actual biomass to be about 100 times as much.

This is why the inch-per-gallon rule is hogwash and anyone quoting it should be dragged out into the streets and shot.

[seandelevan]

This is what I did. I have a 75g with one Jack, one severum and one firemouth plus some black skirts as dithers and one mean gold gourami. Anyhow I got the JD, sev and FM all at the same time when they were about 2-3 inches long. They all get along great. All three are about half grown.

[nickmcmechan]

i agree you could keep mbuna in a 55, however a 75 would be better

in a 55 you could keep 5 angels, you would probably get a pair which you may need to separate, or 5 Festivums, or rams and apistos etc etc

if you go with a 75 you could choose either and more heavily stock the sa setup of course

i would advise getting the biggest tank poss, you'll probably end up upgrading the 55 to a 75 in a year anyway