New Tank, what would YOU do with this setup?

[Sregnar35]

75 gallon fish only tank
Eheim 2217 canister filter
300W heater with electric thermometer
1 light bar with 1 coralife 50/50 bulb(tank lid has an expansion spot for another light bar)
Tank is built into my living room wall, with plenty of clearance on back side for feeding, water changes, etc... I have yet to purchase salt mix, test kits, or substrate, although I do have about 20 or so pieces of dead coral and rock I found in my yard ( check my other thread). My LFS recommended to fill my tank with water and salt mix, run filter for 48 hours, then add about 6 domino damsels. He said some might die but it's ok, they are $5 and their death is part of the cyclying process. Also, I'm planning on buying black substrate, i've heard it helps to bring out your fishes best colors, as they acclimate their body color to there surrounding, they will darken there own colors?? Another question, are the test kits at my LFS any better than the ones at Walmart?? They both say that they test for the same things? Should I spend the $100 and add another light bar to my tank, will it really make that huge of a difference? Any and all help would be apprecited, thank you all.

[OrionGirl]

Depends on what you end up with, but first things first.

Please, do not cycle with damsels. Aside from the fact that there is no reason to kill the damsels, they are a pain in the butt to have in your tank and will likely have to be removed later--not an easy task. Of course the LFS says 'they are just $5 fish"--that's about $4 in his pocket for each one that dies. Silly.

Instead, check into fishless cycling. Using a few deli shrimp, you can cycle the tank much better--higher levels of ammonia build better bacteria beds, which are then large enough to support a fully stocked tank. Cycling with damsels creates a bed that supports just those fish. This means the tank will spike a bit with each addition.

I'm not familiar with the brand name of tests offered at WalMart? If it's Tetra, I don't think they offer much in the way of SW testing, and for many tests, this is important. For better prices, shop online. http://www.bigalsonline.com/ has very good prices.

For light, it depends on what you want. If you want a reef, you'll need to upgrade lights. For a FO, or FOWLR, the existing light is suitable.

I highly recommend picking up some reading material-- http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1740 has a list of good books.

[ChilDawg]

Don't forget the fact that, if you do get the Damsels out, the store will take them back. Yes, I said take...they've been known to offer to TAKE them back (and then resell them) if they don't die...a few stores have told me that they would buy them back if they didn't die during cycling...

Fishless cycling is the way to go!!!

[Sregnar35]

Thanks, I've read prob 20 articles online and 5 books from my local library, all of which have been helpful. I really don't feel like im going in blind, but learning from a book and learning from people is 2 different worlds. Books will tell you the most precise ways to do everything, people will tell you what they find works best for them. I just need to take the best from both worlds and see what in turn works for me and my tank. Back to the cycling with inverts, how many of these deli shrimp would you use for a 75 gallon tank like mine, and approx how long will the cycle take with them before i can add some clowns? Also, are deli shrimp safe to leave in my tank, or should they be returned after cycling?

[ChilDawg]

Deli shrimp are the dead ones that you eat, I believe, so they're safe to leave there.

[Sregnar35]

The dead ones you eat? You mean just some regular old coctail shrimp you eat from the grocery store, just throw them in dead and let them rot??

[OrionGirl]

Yep. The shrimp offered at the deli counter of your local grocery store. I'd think 5-6 of them would be sufficient to cycle the tank, and there usually isn't much left after a cycle. ;) I doubt anyone would take them back, since the purpose of adding them is so they can decay and provide a good source of ammonia for the bacteria to break down. There are several good threads here and in Archives that outline the process, from the perspective of first timers.

I agree--personal information can be a good thing. But, if we don't know what kind of setup you want, we can't share much. A reef tank has different needs than a FO, and what works well in a FOWLR crashes and is eaten in an aggressive predator tank. Books are really good for helping you see what the fish look like, and help you see what fish have the looks and personality you want.

If you know already that you want clowns, you'll need to decide if you want to add reef organisms like corals, shrimp, crabs, etc. Live rock and live sand are great--they are decorative, and act as the filter. But, they can be a pain if you don't want to add the cleaner crew--hermits, shrimp, crabs, snails, etc--so you need to choose what else you want in the tank.

[Sregnar35]

That's crazy!!?!?!? How do dead shrimp help cycle the tank? I thought you needed living organisms to give off ammonia from their waste? I'm looking at doing a FO community tank, some clowns, tangs, mandarinfish, wrasses, maybe a puffer and some electric flame scallops. I'm not looking at doing a reef tank anytime soon, i'll try my hand at fish first, then maybe down the road upgrade my lights and get some live rock and do a reef tank. Could I do shrimp and scallops without expensive lighting and live rock?

[ChilDawg]

Wait on the mandarinfish until you have the tank established for at least a year...they don't often take to supplemental feedings, so you need to have a thriving copepod population in your LR...if you don't have LR, you (most likely) will not be able to keep a mandarin.

Dead things give off ammonia, too.

So does urinating in the tank...

And so does pure ammonia.

There are many ways to cycle a tank...dead things are the best way to do that. Besides, if your Dominos die and are still helping the tank cycle, how is that possible if only living things cause a cycle?

[Sregnar35]

Thanks, will I need extra lighting to keep LR and scallops?

[kreblak]

That's crazy!!?!?!? How do dead shrimp help cycle the tank? I thought you needed living organisms to give off ammonia from their waste?

You do need living organisms to produce ammonia as waste. When you toss in those cocktail shrimp, billions of bacteria begin to break them down. Those billions of bacteria produce vast quantities of ammonia as a waste byproduct. Cheaper than damsels, more humane, and you don't end up with mean a$$ fish with gill burns who chase and harass everything in the tank.

[Sregnar35]

Thanks Kreblak, and I just wanted to say that when I said that's crazy, i didn't doubt what ChilDawg or Oriongirl were saying, it's just amazing that that works! Really cool way to start a tank I gotta say, something i've never heard of.

[OrionGirl]

No, you won't need to upgrade lighting for those critters or the live rock. And yes, ammonia can be introduced in a number of ways. Fish were the most common source for many years, but I think the trend is now moving towards using other sources. The reason is simple--until the bacteria bed develops to the point of processing the ammonia and nitrites, those fish are exposed to toxic levels. This means burned gills, depressed immune systems, and other problems. If that can be avoided, why not do so? Also, by using very high levels of ammonia to begin with, the bacteria bed that develops is actually higher than that of the stocked tank, so all fish can be added immediately without causing spikes.

Do a lot of research on scallops--they are filter feeders, and very hard to maintain in most tanks. Most people report them dying within about 6 months--much shorter than their life span. They also tend to prefer shadows in caves, and can move around frequently--they seldom stay were placed.

For tangs--most tangs do not do well in tanks less than 6 foot long. While you'll get many mixed opinions, IMO they shouldn't be added to new tanks--they tend to do best when kept in tanks that have established algae for them to graze on all day. Stick with the smaller species like the yellow, kohl, and scopas; be careful when mixing them. Some species, such as the yellow tang, can be very aggressive to fish that look similar in shape and color. Others, like the clown tangs, are very difficult to maintain or get far larger than your 75 can support.

Puffers are great fish, but they can cause problems. Some species are well known abusers--they beat up and nip the fins of other fish. And, species like the porcupine get big--15-18 inches is not uncommon. They are messy feeders, and will go after crabs, shrimp and many good cleaners. Not saying to avoid them, but pick a species and get lots of information on it before purchase. Needless to say, a puffer would not be a good candidate for a reef. A puffer is most likely going to view scallops as a snack.

Wrasses are a mixed bag--you'll need to identify a species to get much assistance. some get large and aggressive, while others are good community fish.

For the mandarin dragonette (they are not a goby, but are often called that), live rock will be a neccessity. As juveniles, they eat exclusively pods--little tiny invertebrates that look like bugs--they are detrivores, and very valuable in a tank). New tanks, or tanks with little to no live rock for the pods to reproduce in, can't sustain a mandarin, and they often starve. Once your tank has established and been stable for a while, mandarins can be added as long as you are willing to watch them and make sure they are getting enough to eat--supplementing thier diet with brine and such is a good plan. Ours began taking prepared foods with gusto at about one year, and is now fat and happy member of our aggressive tank (trigger, a lion, and an eel for tankmates). Their bright colors seem to indicate that they are toxic or taste bad, so most fish will leave them alone.

[kreblak]

Yeah, I figured that's how you meant that, I was just tossing ym two cents in the ring. By the way, peeing in the tank will provide an ammonia source, but I must advise against it. ;)

[ChilDawg]

I thought you meant that it was crazy and wouldn't work. My apologies!!!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to leave for a sec to go cycle a tank...

(Yes, Kreblak, I would advise against it, too...especially if the electricity in the tank is turned on...or if people are watching...or if people figure it out by the smell/color...too many negatives!)

[OrionGirl]

LOL--poor wetmanNY is NEVER going to live that down. :D

[ChilDawg]

Darn skippy, OG!

I'd seriously consider it, but there is kind of a stigma attached...

[Sregnar35]

There's always a possiblilty of the urine mutating your fish into something new, that's my yellow finned pisser fish! haha

[ChilDawg]

So many nicknames for that tank...so little time to actually maintain it...and so little desire to do so...It would be hard to gather the strength to clean it!

If they mutated, though, I'd worry more about me...what HAVE I been eating?

[Sregnar35]

Another question, when you "top off" your tank due to evaporation, what do you add to your tap water to clean it for safe use. Is there a special additive that will take care of the chlorine and chloramide as well as all of the other trace elements that might be in there? Or do you buy dechlorinated water?

[ChilDawg]

For SW, most people use Reverse Osmosis (RO) water for top-offs.

[kreblak]

Either/or. I use tap water run through a PUR filter and then add dechlorinator. (I use "Prime", it works well) If you want to use RO/DI water, that is great, too. Also, you can use plain old grocery store water, just make sure it is dechlorinated.

[ChilDawg]

And dechloraminated...not dechlorinated isn't a big deal...so long as you age the water with a bubbler before using it.

[Sregnar35]

Would anyone recommend a powerhead filter. I have a canister filter now, should i get a powerhead or protein skimmer to help circulate the surface of my tank, or does the canister filter do that on it's own?

[kreblak]

I would say definitely get a powerhead to keep your water circulating. I have seen the effects of not having enough water circulation, and they aren't pretty. The canister filter does move some water, but not enough to create a good current in the tank.

As far as a skimmer, I would say yes, but there are many out there who don't skim. I think it helps greatly.

[OrionGirl]

The skimmers do more than circulate water, they also remove dissolved proteins from the water. Very beneficial, but not a requirement.

Powerheads are pretty much a requirement IMM. For large tanks, the return flow just isn't enough to create water movement throughout the entire tank, especially with rock and such. Pockets of still water are prime spots for cyano-bacteria and algae blooms to thrive.

Check with your utility, and see what all is in your water supply. If the phosphates are high, or if you have nitrates, then you may want to seriously consider either purchasing RO water, or getting a filtration system of your own. Metals, including copper, are also areas of concern--copper will wipe out inverts rapidly. Chlorine will gas off over time or under agitation, while chloramine will not. There are products that will deal with both, but use caution. Some products break down the chloramines, but do not deal with resulting ammonia, while others convert the ammonia to ammonium. Ammonium is not toxic, but can be used by the bacteria. The key is that some test kits will give false positive readings because they detect both the toxic ammonia and the non-toxic ammonium. I can never keep it straight, but I know it has to do with the type of testing chemicals. i think salifert's are the ones that will not give false positive, but please double check me on this. I don't have chloramines to deal with (yet), so get confused.

[Mr.Jingles]

so would dechloriminated tap be fine for a FOWLR tank?

[always learning]

I'm no expert on what should and shouldn't be in water and what you want or don't want from your tapwater as far as ro and uv goes but I do know some of the main stuff. De-chloriminated water will do as long as there are no chlorines, ammonia, or heavy metals (I like to use kent ammonia detox and stress coat for my water). I'm pretty sure of what I said but if anyone else wants to add than please go ahead.

BTW, OrionGirl I as wondering if I read your post correct. Did you say you have eels and aggresive fish with a manderine? because if you do than thats a shock to me.:eek:

Thanx,
alwayslearning.

[ChilDawg]

Mr. Jingles, the phosphate and nitrate levels might be a little high, so I'd test them before adding dechloraminated tap water...

[OrionGirl]

Yep--the mandarin is not bothered by any of the aggressives. The bright color pattern is a deterrent--it seems to indicate a nasty taste. The lion has never paid attention to the mandarin other than to avoid going after food that is close to the mandarin, and the trigger will back down when the mandarin flares at him. The eel and the mandarin seem to have a deal--the mandarin will settle on large food chunks, and 'hold' them until the eel can come over to eat them. Never had any concerns about the combination. If anything, the mandarin benefits, since none of his tankmates have any interest in the pod population.

FOWLR tanks can usually tolerate less 'pure' water, but you still run the risk of introducing phosphates and nitrates. While these may not harm fish like they would corals, they can cause algae issues, which are unsightly, and a pain to deal with. Without knowing what is in the tapwater, there's no real way to say if it will be okay or not.

[Sregnar35]

Where or how do you get reverse osmosis water or dechloriminated water?

[OrionGirl]

Reverse Osmosis filtered water is sold at grocery stores from a dispenser, and in bottle. WalMart carries 1 gallon jugs, and they call it Drinking Water, but it is RO filtered. Or, you can purchase a filter and 'make' your own, just be prepared to deal with the waste water.

Chloramines can be removed with a simple treatment, like Prime or Amquel.

[Sregnar35]

Another question, has anyone ever heard that a dark sandy base helps bring out your fishes natural color better than a light sand. I read that somewhere on the internet? It makes sense because most marine fish can change their pigment to blend into their surrondings, so they would in turn change to darker colors, hence enhancing their reds into RED and blues into BLUE

[OrionGirl]

It depends on several factors. There are many fish that will change their color in reaction to their environment--including FW fish. Some won't--a bicolor angel will be the same color no matter what the background as long as the water quality is good. Many tangs 'fade' at night, then get bright again in the lights. The fish that I have noticed change color the most are the smaller fish or the lurking predators, and they change color to improve their camouflage. The scooter blennies are a good example--they are very dark, with lots of colors when swimming on the live rock, but almost completely white when down on the sand. I know jawheads and many gobies will change color like this as well. Frog fish will also change color to blend in with their surroundings--many frog keepers add brightly colored 'fake' corals specifically to maintain the bright colors of a painted or warty frog.

I wouldn't go with the black sand, just because I'm not fond of how the detritus looks against the black. IMO, black substrate shows waste and other debris even worse than white sand will.

[Sregnar35]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Oriongirl! I have a question about my eheim 2217 canister filter. I just bought it off of ebay, it came with a box of fine wool filter, some phosphate reduccing chemical and a lot of hoses and quick disconect parts. Does anyone have an eheim filter and have recommendations on which eheim substrates to use in my filter and how much to use? The eheim web page doesn't really go into detail on how much of each filter media to use. They do recommend putting in the filter bag, then apply filter wool ( EHFISYNTH). They then say to use EHFIFIX or EHFIMECH as a coarse filter layer. But what's the best to use and how much should i use?

[OrionGirl]

In a SW tank, I would run the filter without any media. The reason is simple--the media that pulls solids out of the water will require constant cleaning by you. Without this, the media will start churning out nitrates. If the solids are allowed to move through unimpeded, they will make it into the main tank where the clean up crew--stars, worms, crabs, snails and shrimp--can get to them. These critters make the food stuffs into more star, worm, crab, snail or shrimp, which prevents it from turning into nitrates. Meaning, you work less and have better water quality.

[Sregnar35]

So should I not use mechanical filtration or not use bio filtration media. My filter holds bio, mech, and chem filtration. I was planning on putting in a coarse mech filter, then a divider and some eheim brand bio filter substrate, which is supposed to thrive with beneficial bacteria. And then a fine wool filter last. What would you recommend I put into the filter, and remember, this is the only filter i will have on my fish only tank. No protein skimmer (at least not yet) and no other power heads, just the canister.

[OrionGirl]

Live rock and sand are the best bio-filtration out there. No need to supplement them, and there are reports that additional bio-filtration (like a bio-wheel or sponges) cause problems. I haven't seen those, but keep in mind that most bio-filtration also act as mechanical filtration, so they would require cleaning. When you deal with FW solids, it's mostly waste and plant matter, easily cleaned. In SW, this includes stony tube worms, sponges, limpets, etc--not as easily or quicky removed.

I wouldn't put any type of media in at all.

The canister will provide some water movement, but you will eventually need to add powerheads to prevent low flow/dead spots, where cyano-bacteria and algae thrive.

[Sregnar35]

I'm not planning on adding any live rock to my tank. Would you run powerheads without any media as well, basically use them for water movement only? It seems like my canister filter was a waste of money? If the canister is completely empty, what purpose beyond water movement does it serve. I could have bought 3 powerheads for the price of my canister filter. Another thing I'm wondering is that if I don't add live rock, I shouldn't have stars, worms, crabs, snails and shrimp unless I add them. And in my 75 gallon tank, wouldn't some sort of mechanical filter be needed if i don't have any of natures little cleaner creatures? I might get a shrimp or something, but it's not something I'm counting on. As far as live rock goes, I understand that it is very beneficial, but it's also extremely expensive. Can you buy pieces of LR and add them as you go like you would do with fish, or does each piece of LR need to be cycled in a seperate tank? My LFS has 3 or 4 tanks full of LR for sale, so it shouldn't be loaded with dead waste right?

[BrianH]

If you don't plan on having LR in this tank then your canister filter will have to be your biological filter.

Brian

[OrionGirl]

Sorry--I thought you were using LR. The sneaky thing about LR is this--pretty much any porous rock that you add will serve the same biological function. Tufa, lava rock, etc. And, you can add a few choice pieces of LR to provide you with the other critters and algae--they will move in happily. I'd say go with a 3:1 ratio of porous rock : LR, and while the tank will look a bit rough for the fist few months, eventually you won't be able to tell what started out with nothing.

There are also starter packages you can purchase with the stars and worms and pods. www.ipsf.com is good, but most places that sell LR will offer sand activator kits as well.

The other benefit of rock is the comfort and cover factor. Very, very few fish like hanging out in the open all the time. They need places to duck into to hide, or just to hang out and lurk, like lions.

While you can run a tank without a clean up crew, it really will mean lots more work for you--manually removing algae, cleaning up any leftover food, wastes, etc.

[Sregnar35]

So then what I would need to do is if I plan on using LR down the road, I would need to cut out some or all of the substrate in my filter slowly, until I have enough LR to handle my tanks bio load.

[Sregnar35]

I'm planning on filling my tank with lots of structure, just not LR. I guess I can call it dead rock? Just pieces that are sold at my LFS, they are sterilized and made for SW tanks, they are also about 85% cheaper than LR. I was thinking of adding LR sometime, just not right away. I am going to fill my tank with dead rock and playsand, then add LR someday. Will my dead rock become LR eventually if the tank has some LR in it, like the 3:1 ratio you were talking about Oriongirl? Won't the living organisms on the LR eventually inhabit the dead rock too?

[BrianH]

You can also order live rock online for a much cheaper price. Check out gulf-view (http://www.gulf-view.com) , this is where I bought most of my rock. I also picked up some from local people who were tearing down tanks.

Brian

[Sregnar35]

I can actually get LR for about the same price as gulf-view offers at my LFS, it's just that with my 75 gallon tank, I'm going to need to get quite a bit of LR, and I don't have $200-$300 or more right off the bat to drop into LR. I was planning on adding a few pounds every so often as I could afford it.

[Sregnar35]

Will my "dead rock" and "dead substrate" become "live" if i add some live rock, over time of course? Or is there not enough life in say a 3:1 dead to live rock ratio to colonize my entire substrate and dead rocks?

[OrionGirl]

That's what I was saying--yes, it will all be colonized, as long as you provide some good seed pieces.

[Sregnar35]

Ok, I was just making sure that's what you meant, I'm a bit of a butthead sometimes!!

[OrionGirl]

;) And I tend to use more words than needed to say something.



See?

'
Should have just said "I type a lot."

:D

[ChilDawg]

But you chose not to do so, in spite of the Occam's Razor version of said choice...(You typed too much.) :)

[always learning]

yes, OrionGirl you do type alot (like the first page of this thread:eek: )

But you know thats actually a good thing ;)