Sick Cichlids

[MRomalin]

:help:

Hi, I found this board while trying to figure out what's wrong with my "Blue Ahlis" (PetSmart name sp?) and hope someone can help before I lose them!

I have four of them in a 150 VAT-type tank plus a mix of other Africans (and two South American stragglers that would be in a different tank if I could catch them.) I've had the two sick guys for about two years. They were among the first in that tank. (I can't really remember if I set the tank up two or three years ago).

About 10 or so days ago, I noticed these two started turning very dark--almost black. Within a couple of days, they started looking "sucked-in" and their fins started getting ratty. I found Melafix at PetSmart, so I gave it a try. Their fins started looking a bit better, but then I noticed that one had a white "string" hanging from his side--guessing some type of anchor worm? I did a water change 30% or so. Then I treated with Rid Ich+ (haven't done a water change since--yet). The worm thing looks more like a patch of dead scales sloughing off now.

After the Rid Ich treatment, the other guy (w/o worm) has started to regain a little better colour, and doesn't look quite as sucked-in, but both of them have sort of a popped-out eye appearance and possibly the hole-in-the-head dents--hard to tell.

I picked up some Parasite Clear tablets today, but haven't used them yet. I suppose I should do a water change from the Rid Ich first, for one; and, I'm not sure whether this stuff is the appropriate treatment.

PLUS: (just checked for the purpose of this post) Since yesterday, Ammonia spiked from 0 to 3.0(mg/L), Nitrates are more than 200 (using dip sticks, and colour is neon-pink--not on the chart), but Nitrites are 0-0.5. The GH is 120-180, KH 240, the pH was about 8.0 now it appears to be 9.0 ? and I didn't buffer the water change). Temp is 80 deg F. I rinsed bio-wheels and changed filters. (Two Penguin 350 power filters). Aeration is full-length bubble tube with AP 300 pump.

All the other residents look well. There are 20 fish, ~65-70 total inches, less than 0.5 inches per gallon if I'm calculating correctly. It was easier to give that then try to itemise individual and their sizes.

Please help. I don't know what to do, or what to do first! (PetSmart closes in 2.5 hours! That's the only local med source I have).

[excuzzzeme]

Adding 1 teaspoon salt for each 5 gal water and turn up heat to 82 -84 for 2-3 days. reduce heat and do a 50% WC. Parasites cannot live in a salty environment. The fish will be ok for short term. First do sufficient WC to get water parameters back down. (Not all at once!) Change 20-25% everyday until paramteres are in check. With each change add the salt for the amount of water changed. Bring the salt up slowly and then back down slowly after setting for 2-3 days. Use regular aquarium salt or Kosher salt.

[MRomalin]

This is probably going to sound stupid, but I'm confused.

Do the daily 20-25% with the salt, and temperature up, over 2-3 days, then reduce the temp and do 20-25% daily over 2-3 days? (so about 50% each time?) Did I get that right?

[Rbishop]

I don't think you have ich.

And I believe you should be using a good liquid test kit vice the unreliable dip strips.

What exactly is your fish mix? The inch per gallon rule is totally bogus.

What is your normal water change routine?

I would start with just water changes, 10-15% every 6-8 hours. You need to get that ammonia down to zero.

[MRomalin]

Mix:

4 blue ahlis
2 electric yellows
1 kenyi
2 auratas
2 yellow tal acei
2 bumble bees
1 demasoni

My neighbour (w/much longer arms than me!) managed to catch the two South Americans since my intro post.

I drew 30g out and have ~30g conditioning in a 30g tank w/ a 200 gph bio-wheel. I treated the remaing with Ammo-lock because of the spike seemed rather intense for 24h. I used stress coat and stresszyme in the water I'm condition to replace.

I change q 3-4 weeks, and buffer if needed over a 5-7 days. I vacuum, clean deco and scrub-down glass q 2 mos, but use a Mag-Float whenever I notice growth. I had a cyano bloom issue a little over a month after installing a flora-bulb--gave up since these guys are plant nippers. I haven't had any algae trouble since changing back to a standard bulb.

I have "good" kit (another loverly PetSmart 200% markup product--so not sure if it's all that good or not. ??) It's the Instant Ocean kit. It claims to be an appropriate test-kit for an African Cichlid tank as well. I'm waiting on ammonia results from original water now.

Is that helpful info?

When you say that the 1"/gal rule is bunk, does that mean less or more, or that total inches per gallons isn't necessarily relevant at all?

[Rbishop]

What are ammonia/nitrite/nitrates and pH on your tap?

I fail to see why you are conditioning your water..basically not necessary at all.

Many things come in to play when judging stocking besides length...sex, diet, territory, aggression, decor, personality....and more.

The closer your tank is to your tap, the better for stability.

[MRomalin]

I've never tested the water direct from the tap! I didn't know that I should!

I ALWAYS condition before adding because the resident PetSmart expert said it was necessary to remove chlorine (using city water) and make sure that water changes didn't mess up tank condtions. (???)

Having used the better test kit, ammonia is 0.4 (mg/L) on original water. This kit has a two-step (powder packets) added to measured water specimen. I haven't carried out additional tests yet.

So, you don't recommend pre-conditioning water before adding?

[msjinkzd]

using a water conditioner to remove chlorine/chloramines is vital, i think there was a misunderstanding about what you meant by "conditioning"

[Rbishop]

I add straight to my tank on refills..using Prime. Unless you have some very specific issues such as for breeding or unusual tap conditions, like extremely hard water from Texas and southern Ca, it is usually not necessary.

Most water systems in the states now use chloramine and it does not gas off, which was the original intent of "pre-aging".

Do a round of samples on your tap water...the pH sample should sit out overnight in a shallow dish first. Your water doesn't go thru a water softener does it?

Chlorine/chloramine can kill your bacteria colony, which is what converts ammonia wastes to nitrite, and the nitrite to nitrates. We remove the nitrates and replenish TDS with water changes.

[MRomalin]

Will do on the tap water checks.

I'm fairly certain that this area uses chlorine, as well as water here being considered "hard." (e.g. a friend in the neighborhood with softener/filtration can't use regular detergent in their HE washer, but I can, w/o Suds alarm.)

Speaking of the NH3 to NO2 to NO3 process, does it mean anything in particular when NH3 and NO3 is high, but NO2 is zilch? I would have assumed that NH3 would be low, while NO3 was high, and NO2 would be somewhere b/t...

What does TDS mean? (it took quite some time just to figure out what LFS meant on the site...I can't find TDS!)

(ETC spelling)

[Rbishop]

Fish and food wastes produce ammonia.
One set of bacteria convert ammonia to nitrites.
Another, nitrites to nitrates.

The nitrates are removed by water changes and/or plants.

However, the nitrate test is just an easy method for us to see where our tanks are, without doing complicated and costly chemical testing.

We more importantly change the water to leep DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) low and the TDS (total dissolved solids) up. When we do the water changes, minerals that maintain (buffer) the ph are replenished, and DOCs go down.

Fish do not read pH and can adapt to most all conditions between 5.5 -8.5; stability is the best vice some unique number.

Your tap source can have natural concentrations of ammonia/nitrites/nitrates, and it can vary over the year.

[MRomalin]

I think I understand the mechanism now...

I wanted to post a pic here to show my sick guys, but can't figure out how to upload from a file. Is that possible, or do I need to have pics up on a web source to post them here? The insert pic tool doesn't give any option but a URL location (for me).

[MRomalin]

Edit:

Pic link didn't work: Try this link?

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbums&MyToken=1f252d4c-47b6-4bd3-b380-7e9716e7cb1e

Someone let me know if this works--please?

[MRomalin]

Can't seem to edit last post to correct the link. This should go directly to the fish.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhotos&albumID=949680&MyToken=64f68a6a-d842-461c-b7ce-4ea034c97da6

This guy had the "worm" where you can see the white patch on his side:
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.editAlbumPhoto&albumID=949680&imageID=10348758&MyToken=63c19891-4629-42ce-92f7-2315f78d724e

[Easydoesit]

if youve had your tank for 2-3 years, why are you having an ammonia spike? did you rinse or change any filter media or substrate lately? or is it from changes in your tap water?
your no3 is very high. could be because of this recent ammo spike, but what is your usual water changing routine?
cichlids usually get HITH from not-so-good water conditions... like the ammo or very high nitrates.
for a better test kit than the test strips, i recommend API liquid test kits that come with a little tube. you should have them at your petsmart.

how long have your nitrates been that high?
if you are positive that they haven't been that high for long at all, you would probably benefit from doing bigger water changes.
if the nitrates have been that high for a while, you still need to get them down.
if you do too big/too quick water changes, the fish could go into shock from the drastic change in water conditions, so you need to do them slowly. 10-15% a day should be good. this gives them time to adjust to the clean water they need.

all these problems sound like they could have originated from iffy water quality. the fish could have gotten stressed and were more susceptible to disease.
id get the water liveable before adding any more medications.

good luck, hope it works out

[MRomalin]

I don't know for sure why the spike:

Before these guys started looking so bad, I added the demasoni and a juvi auratus--both pretty small. From what rbishop mentioned earlier, that could be an issue. My male auratus is pretty dominant, but he didn't seem to mind the new guy, hopefully 'gal' for the sake of tank harmony. That could be one factor.

I did add a few feedings, trying to catch two others for a transfer. Trying to catch them in general, I'm sure stressed everyone out. At that point, though, the two Ahlis were already sick. Additional factors in the spike, none-the-less.

I used the Melafix, and then the Rid Ich+ (supposedly for more than just ich). I did a hefty water change between, but added the Rid Ich+ a day or so (maybe 2) later. (???)

I've been keeping the tank at 7.0-7.2 (ish) pH b/c of the mixed tank. I buffered the water change (after Melafix) to bring the pH up a little. The new water was 7.8 when I added it. I thought that would be okay, since it would be diluted with the old water, and it takes a few hours to get all of the water added... probably not good? Even still, I'm sure how 7.0 (+/-) plus 7.8 begot 9.0! IIRC from the buffer directions, higher pH can cause NH3 to go up; so, I guess that could be ANOTHER factor...though it didn't go up at all within that week or so, until yesterday.

I cleaned deco during the water change. I usually do since it's easier to get out with less water in the tank. I rinsed everything thouroughly, and never had trouble b/c of that before.

That's about all I can think of. I suppose that's a lot? OH, and I took out the few plants I had in there, and planted them in the new tank...but they were pathetic little stubs b/c of all the nibbling. Giving the size of the tank, I can't imagine they were doing much.

As of this afternoon, NH3 is 0.2 (still old kit) (Ammonia-N mg/L (SW)), and 1.0 ppm (mg/L) on the strip. NO3 is 40-kit, 80-strips (at least it's not neon pink today). NO2 is 0, and pH is 8.4-kit, 8.5 strips. My PS carries an API brand test-kit w/liquid reagents, but it's not in stock. I'm sure can order it somewhere though...

Can anyone view the pictures in my links? I can't seem to upload individual pics w/o getting the red x. The links are to my myspace albums--the last two should go directly to the fish. Maybe someone can make a diagnosis by the pics? They aren't the best quality, but my camera isn't either.

Thanks for all of the help and advice...I haven't lost anybody yet. I hope I can keep it that way!

[Star_Rider]

I am unable to access the myspace pics.

but none the less will give my 2 cents

rinsing the filter media..are you rinsing the media and decor in old tank water?
or fresh tap?
you can destroy your bio filter is you are not careful when rinsing..usually less problems when risning in old tank water .

the fish turning dark is usually a stress indicator. but the ammonia level could trigger this stress. unfortunately..when they stress they are more prone to infections and infestations. without seeing what the Sx are,,it is difficult to dtermine the issues.
white poo (if present)can be a sign of either bacterial infections or parasite infestations(internal) also the 'sucked' in look could point to the same issue.

[MRomalin]

Attached (I think!) pics of Ahli with worm/white patch...last one shows him front of younger Ahli to show colour contrast--though I think he was always a deeper blue than either of the younger two... I thought I had a pic of sick Ahli #2 (w/o patch), but all turned out to be the 1st guy.

Please let me know if these work, and what you all think this looks like.

[MRomalin]

Okay...update:

NH/NO3's are nil. I did the first 30g to get clear from the Ich treatment, then Ammo-lock stuff, then another 20-ish, and then another 20-ish this AM. I was really afraid to mess with the salt thing--so I didn't do that. The one guy looks nearly 100%. His fins are still a little scraggly, but not bad at all compared to b/4. He doesn't look sunken at all. His colour is still darker, but his stripes are back, and I think he's going to pull out fine.

The other guy though. He's doesn't look any better now than b/4. He was acting fairly normal up until a little bit ago. As I was banging out my last post, I noticed he's hanging at the top. That's not like him (or ANY of them) at all.

I'm worried. That can't be a good sign. Should I quarantine him? Meds? I still have the Parasite Clear (praziuantel, diflubenzuron, metronidazole, and acriflavine in it). Should I try the salt now? Does the pics above help w/a dianosis/es? I really want to save him.

[MRomalin]

Anybody? :( He's still haning in there...at the top though, and looks like heck!

[MRomalin]

This post is atrociously long. If anyone manages to muddle through it, I still need help! Or better yet, in summary, I finally added the parasite clear last night, and have a green tank this AM…I’m not sure when to do WC after the meds, or if I should/could add an algae clear, and so on. I have attempted to list out the situation chronologically below. I don’t know that all my posts were clear, and I fogot about a buffer change early on…so…
Trying to go back over everything I did through the last several weeks looking at the calendar (as best as I can recall):
1. 29 Mar: Moved RTS, 2 Cons, 2 GTs, 1 CAE, 1 pict cat to new tank. Did water change here. Added 2 new Africans to thist tank.
2. 4 Apr: Moved FH and 2 Barbs (the latter not in original plan, but 1 swam into the net, and I thought wth? I really want this (the 150) to be all Afr. Cs anyway).
3. 13 Apr: Mum n Da visiting for the week, pointed out how “ratty” 1 of the Ahli’s look.
4. 18 Apr: Noticed 2nd Ahli looking a bit ragged too. Drew a few gallons to a bucket to try and catch 2nd pictus and two SAs—gave up after several hours and added same water.
5. 19 Apr: Tried again—nearly lost beautiful male Kenyi whom holed himself up in one of the deco-rocks I removed to make the catch. Squared him away and Gave up!
6. 20 Apr: Tried again, succeeded finally! in catching the cat.
7. 25 Apr: Noticed both Ahlis looked a bit “sunken-bellied” but wasn’t really certain. I didn’t feed from 20-22 (fed on 19th, fed only about ½ on 23rd) b/c of extra feedings on 18,19 and 20 (all flake as it’s they prefer it) trying catch the others. I thought maybe they were just hungry—they aren’t the most dominant in the tank…so, I fed them half and half flake and spirulina (flake).
8. 26Apr: Tried again to catch last two—could not. Removed/added same water during each above attempt since 29 Mar).
9. 27 Apr: Noticed bellies looked much worse, fins even raggier, and saw white “string” on Ahli 1. Bought and added Melafix. Tank params (strips) good: pH was 7.0-7.5 (closer to 7.0 though), NH3 0, NO3 20 ppm or less, temp b/t 78 and 80 deg F. Water still fairly clear (until Melafix).
10. 03 May: (a bit more than a couple of days I know—didn’t seem so long) I did 30 g water change. And I DID buffer here. I hadn’t intended to b/c the 2 SAs were still in tank, but I forgot about them, and did it anyhow. I also removed all the deco and scrubbed w/chlorine bleach solution, vacuumed gravel, and scrubbed sides. I rinsed bio-wheels w/tap water, and changed filters, also removed remaining plants.
11. 03 May: Also added the Rid Ich+ after change, b/c of the white patch. I thought maybe the Melafix took care of the “worm” but the damage led to Ich or some other infection/infestation it didn’t handle.
12. 10 May: Params were still okay here. NO3 was close to 20 ppm (not even quite that ‘pink’), and pH was just about 8.0 with sticks (probably a tad less—it’s hard to read those with perfect accuracy). Purchased Parasite Clear first, then started searching about to see if it was recommended, found this site et. al.
13. 11 May: Decided to post here for help b/4 adding any more meds etc. NOW params are way out off. Drew out 30g, to do water change (I think that’s about 20% no?) I had the water ‘conditioning’ in the other tank from the previous weekend about to transfer w/o bothering w/ the last two, but neighbour called in to borrow hedgers, and recruited him to make the final catches—successfully! Added Ammo-lock, then added new water.
14. 12 May: Things a bit better. pH read ~8.5 here. All else down a bit—pretty much one level less than day b/4. One ahli looked (looks) considerably better, the other still horrible.) Did another smaller change here (~20 gals)…didn’t do anything but add “AquaSafe” to water. Usually, I use the StressCoat and StressZyme, but PS was out of the bigger bottles of StressCoat, so tried this instead).
15. 13 May: Another roughly 20 gal change same as above.
16. 14 May: Another 20 gal same. Params all good by yesterday afternoon. (Had to actually start charting to keep all the tanks straight w/my other dilema!) I went ahead and put the Parasite Clear in last night b/c I really didn’t know what else to do for this poor guy). I added tabs directly (OOPS) as I hadn’t read the notation full-through. I assume the mineral levels aren’t the problem as the GH and KH are both high—maybe even higher than they should be).
17. 15 May (today): Water is cloudy and green, NO3 back up a bit, more than 0.0 but not quite 0.2 (with kit) and a bit more green than 0.0 w/strips (sorry no API liquid kit yet—haven’t ordered, but checked PS again when I got new tank for SA’s). I have to say though, the ahli who wasn’t in quite as bad looks rather prime again. His colour has returned vire nicely, and he belly etc. all look healthy. The other…well…he’s still hanging in there, but he looks just as terrible as in the pics. He’s swimming about a bit today…but he’s spending more time just hanging about near the top.