Styrofoam/Cement Background

[ejmeier]

I have reposted this in this forum as there wasn't any replies in the DIY section, or hardly any views for that matter.

Well, I got this idea from another site, and decided that this would be a good idea for a background for me too.

Here's what I did:
Bought a 8' x 4' x 2" piece of styrofoam for like 7 - 8 dollars at HD. Had to cut it into three pieces to fit it into my car. This was WAY more than I will ever need. :rolleyes:

I also bought a 94 lb. bag of Type I Portland Cement. (Again, WAY too much, I probably only used like .01% of the whole bag.) It only cost around $7 and it was the smallest - and only bag that they carried at HD.:o

I cut the styrofoam to the right size to fit my background (a 33g long that is 48" x 12" on the back). Then I just started gouging away the styrofoam with a long knife until I got something that I thought looked natural. I was going for a rock-cliff type of a look, and hopefully it turns out semi-realistic.

I really do not consider myself artistic at all, (seriously, I have no artistic talent AT ALL!) but from all of my half-planned/half-spontaneous gouging I came out with something that looks pretty decent. :) If you are considering doing something like this, but doubt your artistic abilities, don't worry, a monkey could do this! I say go for it.

After this, I mixed some water with the portland cement until it was a gel-like consistency. I then used a paintbrush and painted the cement on.

It is drying, or "curing" as we speak. :D

My question is: I've never used this cement stuff before, and I think I mixed it wrong. Are you supposed to add sand into the mix as well as water? Does anyone know the effect of using just cement and water will be?

Also, is there any way to preserve the cement mix for future uses? I have heard that it hardens in the bag once it is opened. Just wondering how long I have, and if I should store it in something other than the bag - a 5 gal bucket w/ lid perhaps?

[Matak]

Try experimenting with different portland/sand mixtures. You might come up with one you really like. Portland with sand has more strenth than straight portland. I don't honestly know what straight portland will perform like, especially under water.

If you 'spritz' the painted on mixture with water from a spray bottle as it is curing for the first few hours I believe it will cure harder than if it dries out too quickly, IMO.

If you keep the hernia producing bag of portland out of humidty & dampness and at room temps, it should stay usable for a couple of years. If you don't need that much, store some away in some massive ziploc bags as humidity is your only enemy in this case. You could also store it in a tied off garbage bag.

[a_free_bird73]

Like said before, not mixing sand in makes the cement a lot weaker. So you will have to see what happens as the cement may start cracking.

One problem with cement and sand is that it can (and probably well) change the water chemistry a little. Generally not recomended if you are going to keep fish that requires neutral to acidic pH but with Cichlids it will be fine.

To avoid the use of cement there is another way which uses expanding polyurethane canes which you spray either directly on the back of the tank or on a piece of acrylic. You can then push stones in the polyurathane before it cures and you will end up with a similar effect except you will get away with even less artistic talent....

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by a_free_bird73
To avoid the use of cement there is another way which uses expanding polyurethane canes which you spray either directly on the back of the tank or on a piece of acrylic. You can then push stones in the polyurathane before it cures and you will end up with a similar effect except you will get away with even less artistic talent....
This is hilarious. At the same time as you wrote this, someone else commented on another site about the same thing. You see, I wrote an article which appears in August's edition of Reefkeeping Magazine over at reefcentral.com about using polyurethane foam as backgrounds. Hehe, I know all about this technique..:D

Anyway, I painted on a second coat of concrete to my background, this time mixed with 1/2 sand, and it looks great. I just siliconed it to the back of my tank, and all I can say is, WOW!:)

I can't wait until the tank is all set up and running.

I plan to fill the tank with water soon and allow the cement to start curing/leeching out any lime. I will monitor the pH levels and see how things go.

[Matak]

ejmeier, would you do us a favour to satisfy our curiosity? I'll assume you knew your tank parameters before you put the background in the tank. Would you measure pH, GH and KH as time progresses just to see what changes? Also it would be good if you could give us the approximate volume of cement/sand mix and the volume of tank water.

If you are using plain portland and clean sand and none of the above parameters changes drastically, then I see no problem using it.

[ejmeier]

Actually, this is a completely new tank setup. My fish are in the next room, in a separate tank.

I will test the pH, and possibly the alkalinity. What is GH? Sorry, haven't really done this FW stuff, only salt.:)

Also, the results may be somewhat... skewed. I used aragonitic sand mixed into the cement - not silica based. It buffers the water and is simliar to crushed coral, so I think that no matter what, there will be a measurable impact.

[ChilDawg]

GH is general hardness and is a measure of the alkalinity of the water.

[RTR]

Isn't KH alkalinity and GH just Ca/Mg hardness?

[Matak]

Originally posted by ejmeier
Also, the results may be somewhat... skewed. I used aragonitic sand mixed into the cement - not silica based. It buffers the water and is simliar to crushed coral, so I think that no matter what, there will be a measurable impact. As long as the results don't change too drastically and the final results are within safe parameters, it should be a viable solution.

[ChilDawg]

Originally posted by RTR
Isn't KH alkalinity and GH just Ca/Mg hardness?

Dammit, Glossary Boy got it ***-backwards again!

You're right, RTR.

[Wippit Guud]

Got any pictures? I'm considering doing something like this...

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by Wippit Guud
Got any pictures? I'm considering doing something like this...
No.
I don't have a digital camera!:mad: I wish I did though...

Just picture a solid granite rock wall on the back of a tank. It looks kinda like that...:)

[125gJoe]

Not that this would help any, but here's
a Link: Cave Background (http://www.duboisi.com/diy/BNdiygrotto/bndiygrotto.htm)

[ejmeier]

Here's a link to a page that has a tank using a similar background to mine. The background looks very similar to this, only it is a darker color - almost a dark grey. (And not quite so thick - only 2" syrofoam.)
http://cichlidinspiration.net3services.com/show_articles2.asp?id=11

[Matak]

ejmeier, when it is darker, does it look more realistic? I'm not too fussy about the look of that one , but maybe because it has a kind of polar ice cap look to it.

Joe, in spite of the materials used, it doesn't look like the inside of my bar-b-que. Quite sharp actually.

This winter I will try my hand at some epoxy and stone / epoxy and gravel backgrounds and revive this thread. Who knows?

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by Matak
ejmeier, when it is darker, does it look more realistic? I'm not too fussy about the look of that one , but maybe because it has a kind of polar ice cap look to it.
I didn't really think that tank looked too realistic, like you said, it looks like big ice blocks. And yes, it looks quite realistic (IMO) when it is darker. I guess the shapes I carved were less exaggerated too, so that might be another reason.

Okay, found a link to a tank that looks VERY similar to mine, or my background that is - no serious this time, it looks just like mine.:)
http://cichlidinspiration.net3services.com/show_articles2.asp?id=2

Anyway here's an update on the water chemistry after the first day:

(NOTES: My test kit is made for saltwater, so I couldn't test for the pH very accurately, it only goes down to 7.4, but I would guess from extrapolation that it started at 7.0. Also, this was the first time ever I tested my tapwater with a quality test kit (Salifert)that had a high enough upper limit to detect my true dKH. It was at 18.6 dKH straight out of the tap! No kidding. With these facts aside, here are the results.)

Start: pH 7.0, Ca 100ppm, dKH 18.6

2nd day: pH 8.0, Ca 90ppm, dKH 15.4

I don't think that the Ca could've gone down, and I was testing it a bit sloppy, so I'll say it was simply unchanged. As for the dKH, it went down. I don't know why, as my water is pretty screwy, but even my existing tank's levels were equal to that of my tapwater, so somehow, for some reason, the water's dKH went DOWN by about 3.

Lastly, as I expected, the pH has risen a full point to 8.0.

The tank is a 33g long, and I would estimate that there is roughly 30 gallons in the tank. The cement is roughly 1/8" thick, with a surface area of 47" by 11", giving a total volume of roughly 64 cubic inches or about 5 cubic feet. Again, I will say that this is a very ROUGH estimate, I could be off by as much as 50% or more.

[ejmeier]

Okay, I got a teensey tiny little shot of the background using my webcam. It's pretty horrible quality because the tank is in the next room, so I had to strech the cord to the doorway and take the pic from about 10 feet away.

http://www.nano-reef.com/ejmeier/Tank01.jpg

Can you see it?:)

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by ejmeier
The cement is roughly 1/8" thick, with a surface area of 47" by 11", giving a total volume of roughly 64 cubic inches or about 5 cubic feet.
I have to correct my math here, it is driving me crazy! There are 144 cubic inches in a cubic foot, not 12.:) So the volume of cement is about 64 cubic inches, or about .45 cubic feet. (Hehe, the tank itself isn't even 5 cubic feet.)

[drew22to375]

The most realistic background I have seen is on on one of the africain sites. It was done exactly like you but for the final cement/sand mixture he added a little bit sof some kind of dye and it really brought out the rocks and used different clors of black and browns on different rocks. might want to think about that next time. can't rmmember what kind of dye I think it was a fabric dye.

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by ejmeier

I have to correct my math here, it is driving me crazy! There are 144 cubic inches in a cubic foot, not 12.:) So the volume of cement is about 64 cubic inches, or about .45 cubic feet. (Hehe, the tank itself isn't even 5 cubic feet.)
Okay, first I was thinking one dimensional, then I was thinking two dimensional, but now I think I have finally got this THREE DIMENSIONAL measurement right. A cubic foot has 12 x 12 x 12 = 1728 cubic inches; not 12 or 144.

Sooooooo, my cement with a volume of 64 cubic inches is actually only .037 cubic feet.:)

[Matak]

Re: http://cichlidinspiration.net3services.com/show_articles2.asp?id=2
Now that is a good looking background. Too bad yours wouldn't show any clearer, but it appears to look good.

The tank chemistry seems to be settling down rather nicely. Good news :) Keep the reports coming!

[ejmeier]

Okay, time for another update.

The water chemistry has not quite settled down, but it is not nearly as erratic as I was expecting.

As of today:
pH 8.1
dKH 19.0
Ca 120 ppm

I did notice a slight rise in pH, but my lousy test kit (Red Sea) is so imprecise that I can't tell what it's exactly at. It looks a little higher than the 8.0 color, but not quite at 8.2, so I'm calling it 8.1.

I don't know exactly what is happening with the rest of the water chemistry right now, all I can do is report what the test results were...

Also, I was about to add my fish to the tank, but I noticed that the tank looked a bit too empty. It neeed something... ROCKS! Maybe a cave structure, ...and a few more bigger rocks for decoration.... I went outside hunting for some good rocks, when it hit me: why don't I just MAKE the rocks! :)

So, following the same routine as I did with the background, I made a tall rock, and two smaller rocks leaning against each other to form a cave - all out of styrofoam and then painted over with cement.

I could get some fairly decent pics with my webcam this time because the rocks are mobile so I can bring them in the room, instead of the tank which I can't easily get to from my bedroom.

The tall rock:
http://www.nano-reef.com/ejmeier/Rock1.jpg


The two cave rocks:
http://www.nano-reef.com/ejmeier/Rock2.jpg

Note with the cave, I set the two rocks on a platform for stability. If you look also, the base of the platform is red (or whatever color the webcam thought it was...:p) This is to match the lava rocks that I am using for my substrate. There was some leftover "sand" residue in the bottom of the bucket from the rocks, so I sprinkled this over the wet cement to give it its color.

Now... to drain the whole tank so I can silicone these things to the bottom!:rolleyes:

[Matak]

The rocks are coming along nicely, Ej. One more test is needed. Leave a bucket of your tapwater standing overnight and report the test results from that. Then we can determine what effect the cement mixture had.

Keep up the good work!

[ejmeier]

Wouldn't the overnight bucket be basically the same thing as my current tank? (It is only a temporary tank to house my fish until the "real" tank is done.) There is no substrate in the holding tank, and the only rock is a large piece of petrified wood. Of course, there is a filter on the tank, but none of this should effect the water chemistry.

Anyway, I tested the tank's water right after I had tested my tapwater, and the parameters were the same.

But this point is moot because I have been conditioning my fish up to a pH of 8 by using water from the tank with the curing cement. As a matter of fact, I moved two Gold Gouramis into the new tank last night, and they're doing just fine and dandy.:)

[Matak]

Good to hear things are going well. About the overnight water test, I thought that it was necessary to wait a bit to test tap water as the chemical readings might be skewed right from the tap. :confused:
*edit* I really don't know enough about chemistry to say. I thought I had heard that tests should be done this way :)

If the tank chemistry hasn't been changed significantly, then you should be good to go.

[ejmeier]

Well, all of the fish have been moved into the new tank.

I wish that I could say that everything is fine, but I can't.:(

When I was transferring the fish from one tank to the other, I simply netted each one, and plopped them into the new tank. It was almost humorous to see how quickly the fish acclimated themselves to the new tank. One second the clown loaches were squirming in the net, the next they were foraging through the rocks for food.

However, when it came time to move my Tiger Oscar, I couldn't use my net. My plan was to wrangle him into a bucket and lift the bucket from the water, then pour him into the new tank. Well, when I went to herd him into the bucket, (I used my net for this), he got spooked and swam headfirst into the net - and I mean HARD!

He was completely stuck and tangled in the net, and only about 1/3 of his body could fit in there. As long as I had him, I lifted him to the new tank, hoping he would free himself when he got there. No such luck. He continued thrashing and bumping into all sorts of stuff. There were huge puddles on the ground from all of his splashing. I finally had to grab a pair of scissors and literally cut the net off of him.

Now my Tiger Oscar is twitching and swimming in circles. All other fish are doing fine. This is difficult to diagnose because there are two factors that I have to deal with - the curing cement, and the netting episode. It may be a concussion or brain damage from the thrashing that he did in the net, or it may be some sort of toxic effect from the cement.

I decided that since no other fish are effected, it is probably some sort of injury caused by the netting fiasco. I have chosen to keep him in the tank in order to prevent further stress. I can't think of anything else to do... (I did some water changes, but I still don't think that it has anything to do with the cement.)

[Matak]

Ej, re-post this in this forum as a 'need help' thread. Pronto!

[ejmeier]

Well, I think I may have overstated the problem, or perhaps right after I had posted the symptoms may have subsided.

I have upgraded his condition from "injured and not doing so well" to "doing pretty good, still a bit sluggish."

I think he is going to be A-OK!:) :D ;) :p

I noticed that when I turned off the lights, he would stop acting so weird, so this showed me that the problem was probably not with the water, or with any sort of uncontrollable injury. I think he was just being a big baby.:)

I think he was severely traumatized by all of this, and he somehow went from seeing me as "the guy who feeds me" to "the guy who is a terrorist!"

I think that in a few days more he will come around, and he is already starting to act a bit more normal. I did a lot of research on this before I posted, otherwise I would've asked for help here. Interesting though, seems like you're the only one who is reading this stuff Matak, Thanks!:)

[Matak]

Originally posted by ejmeier
...I did a lot of research on this before I posted, otherwise I would've asked for help here. Interesting though, seems like you're the only one who is reading this stuff Matak, Thanks!:) It's not that no-one else cares, it's just that when two get on a topic 'till it looks like a tennis match, no-one wnat's to interrupt. :)

[ejmeier]

I have taken down the previously posted pictures of the rocks, tank, etc. The pics were posted on my nano-reef site, which allows for storage of things only pertaining to a nano-reef, so I couldn't really keep them posted on the site in good conscience.

So.... I decided to repost them as attachments. I'll start with a new one, taken just moments ago. It is a little better than the other tank shot, but the only visable fish is the Tiger Oscar (doing much better BTW!)

[ejmeier]

The first rock I made with strofoam:

[ejmeier]

The second rock pair that I made with styrofoam, forming a cave. The clown loaches love this thing!

[Matak]

Ooooh, looks very rock-ish ;) Will the colour look more natural when it is finished and in the tank or is that what you are aiming for? I guess I'm not clear on this; are those rocks in the tank now?

BTW, good to hear about the 'all clear' with your Tiger. Just shock and stress. You terrorist :D

[ejmeier]

When I took the pictures of the rocks, they weren't in the water. Once they got wet, the got a bit darker. The webcam doesn't do (any) colors justice.

If you look at the full tank picture, you can sort of make out the tall rock on the left hand side. They were made using the same mix of cement as the background, so they match the rest of the tank.

And yes, I will go ahead and say that my Tiger Oscar is now 100% better. He is eating again so I think he trusts me. :D

(sob, sniff, sniff.... it's all about trust...):)

[DonnieP]

Thought you folks might like to check out the styrofoam cement background that I just finished for my 110 Cichlid tank. I have the whole thing documented on my site with all instructions and materials. I used Quikrete Qickwall instead of regular cement, worked great!, let me know what you think! Heres the link
http://www.catfishheaven.net/day1.html

Here is the finished background
http://www.catfishheaven.net/background/29.jpg

[Bristlenose Chuck]

Very nice. I love the details that you posted on your site. Thank you for documenting everything so well.

[Matak]

DP, that is real sweet and I know that Ejmeier will say 'ya! just like that!' :D

[ejmeier]

Donnie,
That background is great!:)

I love that you used so much depth on it, it really does look good. My tank is only 12" front to back, so I didn't have as much room to work with.:(

As for the techniques, very detailed and well documented- this is what I wish I would've done - if only I had a digital camera!

I found that sandpaper worked really well to sand down all of the rough spots so that they don't look so much like styrofoam before adding the coat of cement. I used a coarse 60-grit paper.

As for the torch, I used a MAPP-gas torch to melt the styro as well, but I didn't really like the outcome; I felt that I could do a much more precise and accurate job with a knife and sandpaper. It really is amazing how fast those torches can melt away that stryofoam! I think maybe next time I might try using the torch FIRST to quickly melt away large sections, then go back and touch it up with some knives/sandpaper.

[Matak]

Your tank is about as shallow as mine is Ej.

Just a thought, dark adds the perception of depth so, darken the 'valleys' of your stryo form, and use a lighter colour/aggregate whatever on the 'peaks'. It will help give the illusion of depth.

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by Matak
darken the 'valleys' of your stryo form, and use a lighter colour/aggregate whatever on the 'peaks'. It will help give the illusion of depth.
That's a good idea, I'll keep that in mind for next time, or if I ever drain the tank. The shadows from the lights do make a fair amount of darkness though, so it still looks good enough to fool your eye.

[DonnieP]

Matak
I found the same thing to be true, as ejmeier said, with the tank lights on, the rocks cast thier own shadows, this is the reason for giving them so much depth, no need to darken the crevices, the light and shadows do it for you as in nature..It really looks cool with the actinic 03 lights on..The depth and shadows don't show up good in the photos because the flash illuminated everything..;)

[Matak]

I never considered that. I wonder if it would make sense to accentuate the shadows with bigger valleys than peaks to take advantage of the shadow effect? Maybe a series of snaking peaks or a series of joined ridges with much wider valleys?

[ejmeier]

Originally posted by drew22to375
The most realistic background I have seen is on on one of the africain sites. It was done exactly like you but for the final cement/sand mixture he added a little bit sof some kind of dye and it really brought out the rocks and used different clors of black and browns on different rocks. might want to think about that next time. can't rmmember what kind of dye I think it was a fabric dye.
Is this the site you are referring to?http://www.african.uklinux.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=1926&forum=25&start=0

I think that this background is pretty amazing too, but I can't figure what dye he used! I don't think his english is very good, he keeps referring to soap as "saop" and stuff like that.:)

If anyone knows what type of dye can be used to color these backgrounds, that would be helpful. Sounds like he was mixing the dye with water and sponged it on the concrete to give a more realistic look. I did find some concrete dye at the hardware store, but after seeing that it contained .01% fungicide or something like that I got nervous and decided against it.

[DonnieP]

He used ritz cement dye to sponge his on! I did'nt care for the highlights as I knew the tank lights would do the same thing.. If you note in my article that I used Quikrete Quickwall for my cement, all I could find this in was white so I added Quikrete dry black cement color to mine to get the gray color otherwise it would have been solid white.. The cement color can be found at Home Depot along with the Quickwall..

If you want the highlights, simply mix some of the dry color with water and sponge it on after the last coat of cement has set for awhile...

[Dado]

I've heard people using styrofoam backgrounds to hide their equipment such as a heater, filter tubes etc. I was wondering how can u have good water flow to the back of the aquarium, since u need to leave space for the equipment at the back. Even if u make holes or space out the styrofoam blocks, then your fish can get behind the background, and then u can't see your fish. Can anyone tell me exactly how this background can work, without encountering the problems I listed as a possibility? :confused:

[DonnieP]

Dado
I have no space behind my background because my tank was a saltwater reeftank and has an overflow in the corner and a sump underneath, all heaters and such are in the sump and the return pump from the sump creates all the current I need..In answer to your question though, I have noticed that some of the commercial 3/D backgrounds that are sold for hundreds of dollars have a screen at the bottom of the tank where water enters and one at the top where water exits the heater behind the background..The heater would make its own current since warm water rises..

This could be accomplished by simply hollowing out a spot for a piece of two inch pvc pipe on the back of the background to serve to hold the heater screened at top and bottom with fiberglass screen, same for a powerhead...

[ejmeier]

What I did was put the main background flush with the back, but let it only cover like 90% of the back. Then I put a piece in front of this that covered the rest of the tank, creating a gap of about 10% of the tank. The pocket is maybe 3"l x 2"w and in here I squeezed my heater and the intake for my power filter. The filter intake then makes enough water current to carry away the hot water from the heater.

But you ARE right, my fish can get UNDER my background. I couldn't make the background fit all the way to the bottom, but I thought the rocks would fill in this gap. Turns out the lava rocks are so large that my clown loaches can squeeze in between them and can sort of hang out under my background - kind of an annoying oversight that I forgot about.

But my overlapping piece of styrofoam creates a gap for the heater/filter etc. is also offset by a few inches below the main background, and is underneath the water level. So new water flows OVER the top of the overlapped piece and into the filter intake.

Does this make sense? :)

[Matak]

Cement or mortar colour can be obtained at any decent building supply or masonry supply store. What about tile grout? If you made a thick slurry of the stuff and painted it on. What if you mixed in a coarse sand, like a silica or a concrete sand to give it more texture?

[ejmeier]

Okay, I just pulled back all of the rocks from the back wall, and I filled in the gap along my background with sand. Now I can actually see my Clown Loaches!:)

This was really annoying, and with my Tiger Oscar throwing rocks around, I would not be surprised if he inadvertently trapped a fish down there - but that can't happen anymore.:D

Plus, my Pleco that I haven't seen since I added him almost a week ago is now visible. Welcome home, my son... sniff.. sniff....:)