Growth of Clown Loaches

[Ulan]

I have a question regarding the growth of clown loaches. I'm aware of the fact that these loaches can get very old and can grow to sizes of around 16", and I have seen pictures of a marvelous clown loach tank of one of the members here. I also know about the phenomenon of stunting. As far as I was told, this has to do with the growth of inner organs going faster than the growth of the outer fish dimensions, leading to a heightened profile and problems in the long run.

Of course, there's a reason to this post ;). My best friends have three 10 gallon tanks, and one of them contains about 15 guppies, two roughly 2½ years old neon tetras and a single clown loach. Originally, they had two, but after they had done a total cleaning of the tank (tearing everything apart and scrubbing it), one of the loaches died. I have to add that they did not buy those loaches, but got them as a present from a mutual friend ("I know you have fish, and I really liked these guys..."), who just dumped them in their tank about two years ago.

I have talked to them about the clown loach's adult size and that they are social fish and about stunting, but they just think I'm crazy. The point is that the loach is very lively, and you can watch him swimming around the tank, eating his pellets, reacting to you, etc. One other thing: he never grew, at least not that I would have noticed. He's still 2 inches long, if at all. He also has the normal loach shape and is not grotesquely heightened.

Well, you probably guessed what I'm getting at: The fish looks healthy and happy, and he has been looking healthy and happy for years now. It's a weird situation. When I say something about the loach, they just point at the fish and ask "Your point is?" Well, yes, my point is? It's hard to tell someone his fish suffers when the appearance says the opposite.

[wataugachicken]

well, stunting has to happen over time for it to show its true nature. obviously you can see the fish hasn't grown, and that's the major sign. whether or not the organs continue to grow is up for debate. it's probably not true, but it's a good scare tactic to make people not want their fish to get stunted (you know, like if you make a nasty face, your face will freeze that way). what you can't see is the decreased immune system, susceptibility to disease, sub-par coloration (well, you can see that), and shortened lifespan.

[fwiffo]

you know, way back when, i had a clown loach too early on in a 20 high. it never grew either. i had it for a few years till it was eaten by a crayfish (they co-existed for almost 9 months before the cray got ambitious). perhaps it has to do with some sort of specialized food they require or maybe its something i dont know about. either way, im interested to see what answers this thread garners.

[Rbishop]

My opinion..go with the majority on how big they get. Regardless of how long it takes them to get there. provide the best the fish needs or get rid of it.

[Ulan]

Well, I have no influence on the fate of that fish. My friend has had fish since he was a child, so he doesn't really listen to me.

I'm a bit startled by the awareness problem. Obviously, this stunting problem can only be seen in statistics, but not in the state of single fish. Statistics are invisible to normal fish keepers. Which means that this problem will most probably never reach the attention of the normal aquarist.

[Rbishop]

True, but when faced with research and positive input from other hobbyists, ....

[Lupin]

The point is people should research before they get their fish or at least if they don't know what it is. Your friend failed there. Just because a fish "looks happy" in that tank size and still "remains small" doesn't mean that fish "is actually happy at all". If I may ask, what is his maintenance schedule? What about the size of its eyes? Disproportionate to its body size? Keeping them since their childhood days doesn't make them an "expert" or feel undoubtedly an expert. He should listen and he has a lot to learn in the hobby. We always do.;)

[Ulan]

This is a twofold problem:

He says he has known clown loaches for decades now. He knows that they can grow larger. He says that they simply don't grow large in small aquariums and, therefore, will never run into problems.
From his point of view, the claim that the fish is unhappy is unsubstantiated chatter. The fish is neither sitting in a corner and sulking, nor is it nervous or timid. He sees it as active and behaving normally.
Taken together, he simply refuses to deal with an, as he puts it, putative problem that does not manifest in any tangible way whatsoever. He does not want to waste his time hunting phantoms. This may sound stubborn and as if he refused to listen to reason, but it's hard to brand someone as unreasonable in a case where the problem is as obscure as here.

My friends like this fish very much because of its antics. They would never give it away, a notion they find ridiculous. To whom, and to what fate? I'm sure the fish is from one of Petco's $2 sales. I'm not sure where it would end up if they actually brought it back there.

Another point they bring up is, where do you draw the line in the aquarium fish hobby? Many people keep tetras, but who gives them the opportunity to actually show their normal spawning behavior? So their conclusion is, as long as a fish is not ill or shows obvious signs of discomfort, it's ok. As they lost hardly any fish in all those years, they don't feel compelled to change their position in the slightest.


I don't bring this up because I doubt the stunting problem exists. I only talk about it, because I think there are problems in the aquarium hobby that are hard to communicate and will probably never cease to exist. My friends are not stupid. They think they behave reasonably. That's a barrier that is hard to break.

[Lupin]

This is a twofold problem:

He says he has known clown loaches for decades now. He knows that they can grow larger. He says that they simply don't grow large in small aquariums and, therefore, will never run into problems.
From his point of view, the claim that the fish is unhappy is unsubstantiated chatter. The fish is neither sitting in a corner and sulking, nor is it nervous or timid. He sees it as active and behaving normally.
The reason why they never grow large in small tanks is because as you put it, the aquaria where they are placed are "small". He should know clown loaches are by far very slow growers. Just because they do not grow to the size so easily they should be in comparison to the wild doesn't mean we have to assume they will never grow at all.

Sure, the fish can behave normally and look happy as it is active but is it really satisfied the way it was kept? This fish is bound to live a very short life regardless of your friend's excuses. Clown loaches can live for several years. If this can survive for 20+ years, then that is quite a surprise. Less than 10 years is nothing though in comparison to the achievement of 20 years.

If the fish means a lot to your friend, he should understand why they cannot grow anymore than they should actually. That tank is only 10g. How is it exactly going to grow if its requirements are being compromised? I repeat, what is his maintenance schedule? Are the eyes looking disproportionately bigger than they should be? That is your clue that stunting is evident there. Take a closer look to discus. Several juvenile discus have disproportionately big eyes in comparison to those owned by responsible discus enthusiasts. That is because most discus were kept in conditions far from ideal to them. Their water conditions, feeding and tank size were all too often compromised.


Taken together, he simply refuses to deal with an, as he puts it, putative problem that does not manifest in any tangible way whatsoever. He does not want to waste his time hunting phantoms. This may sound stubborn and as if he refused to listen to reason, but it's hard to brand someone as unreasonable in a case where the problem is as obscure as here.
The problem is obscure because the clown loach will never grow as far as the tank size is concerned.


My friends like this fish very much because of its antics. They would never give it away, a notion they find ridiculous. To whom, and to what fate? I'm sure the fish is from one of Petco's $2 sales. I'm not sure where it would end up if they actually brought it back there.
At least, make it a priority to find a responsible fishkeeper instead of worrying about selling it or giving it away to someone you do not know. Just because your friend likes its antics doesn't mean we have to put fish ethics aside. If he can upgrade the tank to a 55g for a good start or even try to ask another fishkeeper to keep it in a large tank, then that is not a problem.


Another point they bring up is, where do you draw the line in the aquarium fish hobby? Many people keep tetras, but who gives them the opportunity to actually show their normal spawning behavior? So their conclusion is, as long as a fish is not ill or shows obvious signs of discomfort, it's ok. As they lost hardly any fish in all those years, they don't feel compelled to change their position in the slightest.
Spawning behavior of tetras has nothing to do with this situation, Ulan. The problem here is the tank size being compromised for the clown loach's sake. It needs another chance to grow instead of being forever remain stunted because some person loves its antics more than its welfare.


I don't bring this up because I doubt the stunting problem exists. I only talk about it, because I think there are problems in the aquarium hobby that are hard to communicate and will probably never cease to exist. My friends are not stupid. They think they behave reasonably. That's a barrier that is hard to break.
Stunting problem here exists. That clown loach should have been 5-6 inches by now, not 2 inches. I am not saying your friends are stupid nor will you hear it from me that they are. My point is as aquarists, we should not compromise the fish's health by ignoring the problems. Address the main issue here and that is not a problem.

There are still plenty of myths surrounding this hobby. We at least try to crush those by making an effort to explain why it is and why not. Not doing so is another story.

My two cents.

[jpappy789]

Lupin said it better than I ever could. I am in complete agreement: a 2 inch clown loach at that age is unhealthy. I understand your situation as a few of my friends are pretty naive and ignorant when it comes to fish keeping as well. I try to tell them what they should be doing but sometimes it doesn't work. But as Lupin said, as a responsible fish owner you should try to do as much as you can to show your friend what he should be doing.

[Beasts]

This problem has been discussed repeatedly on Aquaria Central. As responsible, knowledgeable aquarists we attempt to do what is best for our aquariums' occupants. But, if we were to eliminate from the hobby all of those who don't behave this way, 75% of all pet stores would be forced to close for lack of business. Tell people, in a positive way, about the best way to treat their pets and then move on. You are not responsible for their behavior. And, as a former pet store owner, I can attest to the fact that there are far more people out there who treat there animals poorly than well. One could devote their entire life to trying to cause a change and die very unhappy for their lack of effect.
Mankind has a very utilitarian attitude toward the rest of the biosphere on the whole. The question is "How can we use these animals and plants?", not "How can we care for them properly and well?"

[Ulan]

I understand your situation as a few of my friends are pretty naive and ignorant when it comes to fish keeping as well. I try to tell them what they should be doing but sometimes it doesn't work.
You understand my problem. They think I'm crazy. Or, as they put it, overly enthusiastic.

But as Lupin said, as a responsible fish owner you should try to do as much as you can to show your friend what he should be doing.
Sure, but there are limits. In the end, it's their fish and their decision what to do with it. Or you could also say that I'm willing to compromise. If it's a decision between our friendship and the well-being of a fish, I decide in favor of the former, even more so as the opposite wouldn't help the fish, either.

I guess they will have to learn from experience. We had a similar situation with their female cat, where I tried to convince them to let her get spayed if they prevent her from getting pregnant. Well, when the problems became finally obvious, I pointed it out, and it cost them $850 for a surgery :irked:.

[Ulan]

The reason why they never grow large in small tanks is because as you put it, the aquaria where they are placed are "small". He should know clown loaches are by far very slow growers. Just because they do not grow to the size so easily they should be in comparison to the wild doesn't mean we have to assume they will never grow at all.
These were his words. You don't have to convince me ;).

Sure, the fish can behave normally and look happy as it is active but is it really satisfied the way it was kept? This fish is bound to live a very short life regardless of your friend's excuses. Clown loaches can live for several years. If this can survive for 20+ years, then that is quite a surprise. Less than 10 years is nothing though in comparison to the achievement of 20 years.
Let's see whether it survives the next tank cleaning.

If the fish means a lot to your friend, he should understand why they cannot grow anymore than they should actually. That tank is only 10g. How is it exactly going to grow if its requirements are being compromised? I repeat, what is his maintenance schedule? Are the eyes looking disproportionately bigger than they should be? That is your clue that stunting is evident there. Take a closer look to discus. Several juvenile discus have disproportionately big eyes in comparison to those owned by responsible discus enthusiasts. That is because most discus were kept in conditions far from ideal to them. Their water conditions, feeding and tank size were all too often compromised.
Well, I think that his wife is more attached to the fish than he is, but she trusts his expertise, as he obviously had fish much longer than I had. Tank maintenance is old school: Just top the water up, and if the tank gets filthy after a year or two, tear it down, scrub it and start over.

It's funny that they hardly ever lose a fish. Their fish usually die of old age. Which makes my position in this discussion weak, because I have obviously more problems with disease than they have, although I know the reasons (insufficient quarantine of new stock).

The problem is obscure because the clown loach will never grow as far as the tank size is concerned.Yes. But this makes communicating the problem nearly impossible. It would be much easier if the fish actually grew.

At least, make it a priority to find a responsible fishkeeper instead of worrying about selling it or giving it away to someone you do not know. Just because your friend likes its antics doesn't mean we have to put fish ethics aside. If he can upgrade the tank to a 55g for a good start or even try to ask another fishkeeper to keep it in a large tank, then that is not a problem.
Which brings us to position 1: Recognition of the problem.

Spawning behavior of tetras has nothing to do with this situation, Ulan. The problem here is the tank size being compromised for the clown loach's sake. It needs another chance to grow instead of being forever remain stunted because some person loves its antics more than its welfare.
I just brought the comparison because the borders here are fuzzy. In this hobby, we try to emulate the natural environment of fish to make them survive or thrive. Some people rebuild an amazon habitat. Other people think the vase on the table is sufficient. Most people range somewhere in between.

[Ulan]

This problem has been discussed repeatedly on Aquaria Central. As responsible, knowledgeable aquarists we attempt to do what is best for our aquariums' occupants. But, if we were to eliminate from the hobby all of those who don't behave this way, 75% of all pet stores would be forced to close for lack of business. Tell people, in a positive way, about the best way to treat their pets and then move on. You are not responsible for their behavior. And, as a former pet store owner, I can attest to the fact that there are far more people out there who treat there animals poorly than well. One could devote their entire life to trying to cause a change and die very unhappy for their lack of effect.
Mankind has a very utilitarian attitude toward the rest of the biosphere on the whole. The question is "How can we use these animals and plants?", not "How can we care for them properly and well?"
Most fish in pet stores are the price of a coffee at Starbucks, and that's how many people treat them. If a fish dies, it gets replaced by a new one. Someone must buy all those oscars, pacus and irridescent sharks at my local Walmart. And I guess that all those non-aquatic plants in pet stores are no problem because they last longer than the fish in a typical tank that we never hear of.

Of course, my friends are not like that. They care for their fish. Just that this care has limits. They never crossed the border to being fish enthusiasts. They just like fish.

[Lupin]

These were his words. You don't have to convince me ;).
If what you said is true, he knows then exactly the final size of the fish but refuses to budge to give the fish a chance. He should know better what a responsible fishkeeper means more than someone who keeps fish just for the sake of entertainment, more than someone who wants nothing but for the sake of keeping fish.

I am not trying to convince you more than I want the fish given another chance. The poor fish is stunted beyond your friend's imagination. I feel however that you are much more responsible than your friend who is as Jpappy described well, naive the way he described his friends for refusing to believe what he says.


Let's see whether it survives the next tank cleaning.
I'll only cross my fingers. Something tells me your friend never does water changes at all. Too bad. If he comes posting here, he should expect blunt words his way for the fish's sake.


Well, I think that his wife is more attached to the fish than he is, but she trusts his expertise, as he obviously had fish much longer than I had. Tank maintenance is old school: Just top the water up, and if the tank gets filthy after a year or two, tear it down, scrub it and start over.
I knew it. I have not read this paragraph yet and the one above already tells me something wrong is here. His fish will remain stunted so long as his nitrates rise steadily high while deteriorating quickly but gradually. He shouldn't whine to you if he tells you his fish died because of a water change. He should know better that the fish died from shock due to sudden and extreme changes in the water chemistry.


It's funny that they hardly ever lose a fish. Their fish usually die of old age. Which makes my position in this discussion weak, because I have obviously more problems with disease than they have, although I know the reasons (insufficient quarantine of new stock).
Even healthy fish are disease carriers hence we quarantine every new fish. How old are their fish usually? A fish cannot die of old age if it is stunted. It simply died because its lifespan as fate would have put to its stunted growth, is over. Fish can live longer than most of us can imagine. It's our failure to provide them the best we can that makes them cut their lives short than what would have happened to the contrary. I still think your friend is still not up to scratch to keep more fish. Bottom line is either he quit because he likes to keep fish for the sake of their "antics" or the sake of just being a "fish-haver", or he starts anew by being more responsible in giving the fish the appropriate environment.



Yes. But this makes communicating the problem nearly impossible. It would be much easier if the fish actually grew.

Which brings us to position 1: Recognition of the problem.
Unfortunately, that is no longer possible. Not with the style of maintenance that you mentioned or the tank size. He failed to recognize most unfortunately what he was doing is unethical.


I just brought the comparison because the borders here are fuzzy. In this hobby, we try to emulate the natural environment of fish to make them survive or thrive. Some people rebuild an amazon habitat. Other people think the vase on the table is sufficient. Most people range somewhere in between.
All the same, we will have to try harder to drill those to the heads of those who refuse to recognize the issues in what they are doing. A vase still is not appropriate even for a betta. Best use your logical reasoning behind it. If your friend wishes to be considered "responsible", I'd speak to him bluntly that it is time he stops falling blind thinking what he was doing is correct. I think you have a lot of explanations to give him which is kind of frustrating but if he follows, it's worth it. At least, in the end, you tried to save one fish whose life is endangered but being overlooked by your friend.

[Ulan]

If what you said is true, he knows then exactly the final size of the fish but refuses to budge to give the fish a chance. He should know better what a responsible fishkeeper means more than someone who keeps fish just for the sake of entertainment, more than someone who wants nothing but for the sake of keeping fish.
This is the center of my problem to get his attention in this matter. He says that he knows that clown loaches adjust their size to the size of the tank. Problem solved. End of discussion.

I am not trying to convince you more than I want the fish given another chance. The poor fish is stunted beyond your friend's imagination. I feel however that you are much more responsible than your friend who is as Jpappy described well, naive the way he described his friends for refusing to believe what he says.
Well, I tried to explain it to him several times, to no avail. As I'm not willing to hit him or to steal the fish, I don't really see that I have many possibilities here. I don't have the space for bigger fish myself, as I live in an apartment.

I'll only cross my fingers. Something tells me your friend never does water changes at all. Too bad. If he comes posting here, he should expect blunt words his way for the fish's sake.
He thinks messageboards are a waste of time, so don't expect him to show up.

I knew it. I have not read this paragraph yet and the one above already tells me something wrong is here. His fish will remain stunted so long as his nitrates rise steadily high while deteriorating quickly but gradually. He shouldn't whine to you if he tells you his fish died because of a water change. He should know better that the fish died from shock due to sudden and extreme changes in the water chemistry.
In principle, that's true. The problem is somewhat alleviated by the fact that they have real plants in all tanks. Nothing fancy, mostly wisteria, but they grow. Wisteria doesn't grow in my tanks. Although I heard it does better with higher nitrates ;).

Even healthy fish are disease carriers hence we quarantine every new fish. How old are their fish usually? A fish cannot die of old age if it is stunted. It simply died because its lifespan as fate would have put to its stunted growth, is over. Fish can live longer than most of us can imagine. It's our failure to provide them the best we can that makes them cut their lives short than what would have happened to the contrary. I still think your friend is still not up to scratch to keep more fish. Bottom line is either he quit because he likes to keep fish for the sake of their "antics" or the sake of just being a "fish-haver", or he starts anew by being more responsible in giving the fish the appropriate environment.
Life is often more complicated than this. He had fish in former times, but lost interest (I guess). When his daughter moved out the first time, she bought an aquarium, put lots of fish in it, got lots of problems and finally dumped the tank including surviving fish at her parents' house. The fish were mostly short-lived species, like lifebearers and neon tetras. The two surviving neon tetras are still alive nowadays. The oldest male guppy just died, and that's what I mean with old age. That guppy was 2½ years old, plus the time he lived before the daughter bought it. The oldest son is still alive. The original guppy mother died when grandma came visiting and switched off the airpump "because it was too loud". Well, 50 guppies in a ten gallon might count as overcrowded. Despite the conditions, you can count the number of fish deaths on the finger of one hand, including the one clown loach. His wife is the driving force behind there being three tanks nowadays.

Btw, they are responsible for me having fish. They persuaded me to take some of their guppies. I only have the five left that you could see in the photo of my hospital tank in the other thread, and none of those guppies is of the generation I got from them.

Unfortunately, that is no longer possible. Not with the style of maintenance that you mentioned or the tank size. He failed to recognize most unfortunately what he was doing is unethical.
He doesn't believe in these claims made by today's aquarists. He thinks it's just the newest fad.

All the same, we will have to try harder to drill those to the heads of those who refuse to recognize the issues in what they are doing. A vase still is not appropriate even for a betta. Best use your logical reasoning behind it. If your friend wishes to be considered "responsible", I'd speak to him bluntly that it is time he stops falling blind thinking what he was doing is correct. I think you have a lot of explanations to give him which is kind of frustrating but if he follows, it's worth it. At least, in the end, you tried to save one fish whose life is endangered but being overlooked by your friend.
Believe me, I tried. To no avail. He thinks his success in keeping fish proves him right.

[wataugachicken]

i dunno what you can do when someone simply decides not to listen.

you can think of it more this way - planting an oak tree (an acorn) in a container. can you do it? Sure. And that tree is going to grow nicely and do really well for a while, probably several years. then it is just going to stop growing. you can say, 'oh, well, when it grows another two feet i'll either find a bigger pot or maybe i'll plant it in the ground. it's still small and doesn't need it yet.' the catch is that it will not grow UNTIL it gets more room. then it'll spring up quickly like nothing ever happened. otherwise, the tree is going to stay small, get a lot of bugs and diseases, and die much earlier than a tree planted in the ground. it doesn't matter how much water and fertilizer it gets, unless the roots have room to roam, it's not going to survive as long or as well as its sister trees in someone's yard.

i think you're friend knows he's wrong, which is why he is unwilling to change the way he is keeping the fish. that way he can stunt his fish to the same size as long as it lives (which will not be long at all, comparatively). if he did put the fish in a bigger tank for 6 months or a year *just to see*, the change and growth of the fish would show him for the fool he is. he knows that you are right, which is why he doesn't want to be proven wrong and lose face. hell, put it in a bigger tank with three other similarly but appropriately sized (young) clowns, and see how much more natural and active his fish's behavior is, and how it compares to the younger unstunted fish. i imagine it would be quite a shock - not that he'd admit it. you could also watch how the growth rates compare over time.

[Lupin]

This is the center of my problem to get his attention in this matter. He says that he knows that clown loaches adjust their size to the size of the tank. Problem solved. End of discussion.
That's so unfortunate. Both of us know some people spew the same rubbish that fish can adjust their size to the tank size. So it seems it is okay with him the fish lives as long as they don't outgrow the tank and seem "happy" but it is not okay for it to outgrow the tank so he can avoid the upgrade if possible.


Well, I tried to explain it to him several times, to no avail. As I'm not willing to hit him or to steal the fish, I don't really see that I have many possibilities here. I don't have the space for bigger fish myself, as I live in an apartment.
My other option would be for a fellow loachaholic to get it if one has a bigger tank but no sense doing this if he is thick in his head.


He thinks messageboards are a waste of time, so don't expect him to show up.
LOL..Wata put it right that he refuses to admit he is wrong while you are right, Ulan. At least you tried to drill the information to his head.:)


He doesn't believe in these claims made by today's aquarists. He thinks it's just the newest fad.

Believe me, I tried. To no avail. He thinks his success in keeping fish proves him right.
Wata got it right. I guess I won't waste my breath if I were you if he is that naive and stubborn.:huh: Water changes are a new fad? Oh dear, oh dear. Let him complain then. If he comes to you complaining his fish died which I doubt anyway because he doesn't want to be corrected, tell him "I told you so". In the first place, he should never have kept his interest for fish alive if he is that stubborn to admit he is doing the hobby the wrong way.

[Ulan]

i dunno what you can do when someone simply decides not to listen.

you can think of it more this way - planting an oak tree (an acorn) in a container. can you do it? Sure. And that tree is going to grow nicely and do really well for a while, probably several years.
That's probably not the best example - people have been growing bonsai trees that got 800 years old - but I know what you get at.

i think you're friend knows he's wrong, which is why he is unwilling to change the way he is keeping the fish. that way he can stunt his fish to the same size as long as it lives (which will not be long at all, comparatively). if he did put the fish in a bigger tank for 6 months or a year *just to see*, the change and growth of the fish would show him for the fool he is. he knows that you are right, which is why he doesn't want to be proven wrong and lose face. hell, put it in a bigger tank with three other similarly but appropriately sized (young) clowns, and see how much more natural and active his fish's behavior is, and how it compares to the younger unstunted fish. i imagine it would be quite a shock - not that he'd admit it. you could also watch how the growth rates compare over time.
I think he would react if confronted with real evidence. I'm not sure he knows that he's wrong. It's more a combination of that the fish are not that important to him and that there is a lack of easily visible evidence. He's a scientist. Mere words don't sway him.

[Ulan]

That's so unfortunate. Both of us know some people spew the same rubbish that fish can adjust their size to the tank size. So it seems it is okay with him the fish lives as long as they don't outgrow the tank and seem "happy" but it is not okay for it to outgrow the tank so he can avoid the upgrade if possible.
Yes, it's a widespread argument. Most pet store employees will also tell you that you don't have to worry about the size of those loaches.

My other option would be for a fellow loachaholic to get it if one has a bigger tank but no sense doing this if he is thick in his head.
Not to mention that his wife loves the fish and won't give it up.

[COLOR="Green"]Wata got it right. I guess I won't waste my breath if I were you if he is that naive and stubborn.:huh: Water changes are a new fad? Oh dear, oh dear. Let him complain then. If he comes to you complaining his fish died which I doubt anyway because he doesn't want to be corrected, tell him "I told you so". In the first place, he should never have kept his interest for fish alive if he is that stubborn to admit he is doing the hobby the wrong way.
Well, I should probably not tell you about one other acquaintance I have, then (I'll do it anyway ;)). Every time I'm at his place, the stock of his tanks has changed. He buys new fish or inverts all the time, and if he doesn't like them, he dumps them into canals, lakes on golf courses, rivers, you name it. His wife and I were telling him that this was illegal and has bad consequences for the local fauna - to no avail. For example, he got rid of his sole cory because it was "boring and timid". I hope I didn't do anything wrong when I told him that they are social fish, because I fully expect to see a new bunch of cories next time I'm there, with some other fish having moved to some local outdoor body of water.

That's a different kind of fish keeper. Everything is a game, an experiment. As soon as the result is in, it's time for the next experiment. You probably guessed that the dumping of fish in the outdoors is one big experiment in ecology and evolution, too. This guy annoys me even more than the other one. I just have some hope he will become responsible one day.

[Beasts]

Ulan, You gotta work on your choice of friends! :grinyes:

[Ulan]

Ulan, You gotta work on your choice of friends! :grinyes:
Well, some just come in a pack with others ;).

[Lupin]

Ulan, You gotta work on your choice of friends! :grinyes:
What he said.:D