How to tell a shrimp is healthy?

[goldfish freak]

I am thinking about buying a few wood/bamboo shrimp and would I please like to know what to look for in order to tell if it is healthy, besides the really obvious that is. I do not have experience with shrimp so I would not really know what to look for. What are some of the signs that a shrimp is healthy and some signs that it is not? Thanks.

[RTR]

OK, now I know what kind of shrimp you are getting.
:p

Wood Shimp should be actively sseking food, usually by sitting in the current with their fans spread. Two fans open is acceptable, 4 is great. Ask to see them being fed - fan collection is fast, rotating among the open fans. I supect they either feel or taste the food hit.

If the current is poor, they may be "mopping" the substrate /rocks/decor in search of food. Not the best setup, but it shows they are still alert.

Color is hard to judge - they have hormonal control over this. They should not be pink though.

I no longer keep these beasts in mixed tanks, strickly species. They do not compete for food with fish well at all IME. I use live Daphnia (frozen may do) and other tiny crustaceans and infusoria and Hikari micropellets. Fine powder fry food will work as well.

They have strong "pecking order" for the best seat in the current for gathering food - the shrimp in that position will be the Alpha male, and should have the strongest color.

HTH

[goldfish freak]

Wow, thanks RTR for all that good info :). It defintely helps.

I was thinking about getting afew of these filter feeding shrimp to clear the green water in my goldfish tank and keep it clear. I read that they eat suspended algae. How big do these shrimp usually get and how many would you suggest I get for my 120 gallon tank?

[OrionGirl]

I don't know that they would go well with goldfish--the goldies may bug them, and you will still need to target feed them with something other than algae. Also, make sure they can handle the cooler temps usually found in goldfish tanks.

[RTR]

I used them first downstream of the daphnia tank in my circulating range for utility, then found them too fascinating to be in a hard to see tank, so they had to be upgraded.

I did not know they could/would capture suspended alage, so I can't offer suggestions. Do you have a sump on the tank where they will be housed? Or in with the fish?

Please, please let me know how this works out - I really am very interested. Shrimp are one of my things.

I love the concept and hope it works.

If you had a divided sump or a refugium or series of two refugia, with daphnia in the first, they would eat the green water (it is what they are fed), then excess or overfow daphnia would be consumed by the shrimp in the second. That was my setup.

[goldfish freak]

OrionGirl, I am not really worried about the goldfish bothering the shrimp because they would be in planted tank with driftwood, so they would have places to hide. Also my fancy goldfish tank is at 80 degrees most of the time and never drops below 77 even in the winter.

RTR, I do not have a sump or refugium, I was planning on putting them in the tank. I am unfamiliar with how a refugium works. Is it a simple device to install? Where does it go, does it take up much room and is it inexpensive? I might consider using the refugium to house and grow daphnia to clear the green water and feed my goldfish and wood shrimp.

Are there other foods that I can feed the daphnia besides green water? Since I am assuming that with the daphnia in the refugium that the water would clear up thus leaving them without food.

I will try the wood shrimp first in the tank and if that does not clear the green water then I will consider adding the daphnia in a refugium. I will definitely let you know how it works out for me :) .

[RTR]

The Wood shrimp can't hide. They need to eat , and that means sitting exposed in the current with their fans spread to capture food. It also means that they must be out when you feed, but mine tended to be out 24/7. If they are hiding they can't eat. Normally they only hide at molt.

Refugium is a concept rather than a particular device. It just means another container with water, exchanging with the main tank but without fish access to it. A sump can be a refugium, among other things.

In my setup the Daphnia tank was a 20H, with water input from the main system sump, a small light on 24/7 (to keep the daphnia up in the water column). downstream from this was a 20-long (fed by gravity) with the Wood shrimp with bog wood for them to perch on in line with the three constant-level siphons feeding from the Daphnia tank. The siphons from the Daphnia tank were low-level, but some Daphnia went through - which avoided population overgrowth and crash. The wood shrimp tank gravity fed back to the main sump (which served over 300 gallons).

There are commercial external HOB refugia which could hang on the back of a 55, but they are $$$ IMHO. The SW/reef folks use them. I have no experience with them. I've only used tanks as refugia.

[goldfish freak]

Thanks again RTR. Okay, since wood shrimp can't technically hide, would you think that they would be okay to keep with fancy goldfish? I mean these shrimp are fairly large and I would imagine too fast for most fancy goldfish to catch, even if they did decide to make a snack out of them. Could I use a small tank such as a 5 gallon tank as a refugium for the daphnia? If so could I place it on the floor of my cabinet stand? How would I go about pumping the water from the refugium to the display tank and back? Is this a simple thing to do and would it be less expensive than buying a HOB refugium?

[RTR]

When I had Wood Shrimp with tropicals (fairly wimpy fish) the issue was not harrassment, the shrimp were the largest things in the tank, but feeding - they just could not compete. Wood shrimp are not fast, unlike their smaller cousins. They are large and clunky.

Give me a while to think about setup, I'll get back later...

[goldfish freak]

Okay, I understand but I could target feed the shrimp with the foods that you mentioned. I don't think the goldfish would be interested in the powdered fry food and I am hoping that they do consume the green water.

[RTR]

I can't think of simple circulation setup which would get the excess Daphnia back to the main tank where the shrimp are to be without chewing them up.

[goldfish freak]

RTR, what about if I use a HOB refugium? Would using one of these chew up the daphnia as well. I have found a couple of places that make them which are somewhat close by. What do think of these two designs:http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20758&item=2326680354#ebayphotohosting and: http://www.aquaria.ca/Shop/Images/CustomAcrylic/refugium.gif They seem quite similar.

[RTR]

The designs are similar, but you need power intake and passive return (otherwise the pump pulverizes the Daphnia). You do not need or want large flows, and you do want a 24/7 light, even if it is just the lowest wattage available screw-in self-ballasted fluorescent.

If you are willing to go that much for a HOB refugium, do some searches and get the largest you can for the money. You do not need real PC lighting - you are not growing macroalgae for a reef, just keeping Daphnia in the water column and feeding.

So, look for largest volume available on a cost/volume basis, ability to light at low level, powered water input and passive return. You also want to consider the ability to mask/screen the light from your view, depending in part on how obtrusive it will be to you and whether or not it will bleed into the dispaly tank.

[goldfish freak]

I am not sure how I would provide a power intake and passive return.

I was thinking maybe if I attached a pump which sits in the tank to one end of the piping of the refugium(I would guess the smaller end) it would pump water into the refugium and overflow into the tank via the other end of piping. It looks like this would work. Am I right? I was thinking about using a small pump suctioned to the floor of the tank to pump the water up. The tank is 24" tall. What rate of gallons per hour should I aim for? Would a pump that has an adjustable flow of 21-106 gph at a maximum head of 29" work well for a refugium that holds either 2.1 or 3.3 gallons of water? Would a refugium that hold this little water work well for me?

I have a choice between buying a refugium that measures 19"x13"x2" that holds 2.1 gallons and will fit on the back of my 120 gallon tank in it's current position or one that measures 18"x12"x4" that hold 3.7 gallons, that will only fit on the back of my tank if I move it forward. I only have 2 inches of clearance behind my tank and would prefer not to move it in order to accommodate the wider refugium. Do you think the thinner refugium would be sufficient to raise Daphnia, and would it matter if it was Daphnia Pulex or Daphnia Magna?

Thanks again.

[RTR]

I would not move a large tank if I could possibly avoid it.

There are refugia marketed with powered in and passive out, but I don't remember who makes or markets it, those were short-term bookmarks and cleared when I decidied I was happier with using tanks.

The hazard to power in and passive out is overflow danger if the return is blocked or loses siphon. If I set such with the pump low in the display, I would have a float switch in the refugium (lower visibility, less obtrusive) or in the main tank (safest, but visible and not attractive) to shut down if the refugium were in danger of overflow, or if the display were lower than normal in water depth (depending on float placement).

I'm not certain that either of those mentioned is really large enough to make a significant impression on the green water issue.

Can we jump back to the original issue of green water a minute? Do you have a full-size hood and what is above your tank? What room is it in? The reason I ask is that emerse plants are more effective at removing nutrients from water than submerse, or than Daphnia at eating the resulting green water (suspended algae) and then the shrimp at eating Daphnia (although they can eat a lot). If there is space atop your tank, it is easy to set a tanktop W/D as a hydroponic plant tray, planted with Spathyphyllum (sp?) which would be more likely to alleviate the problem than all these too-small secondary processes - that would at least attack the primary issue. The Aquarium Products TT W/D that I used this way is about 5 1/2 x 5 1/2 x 48", only 36 of which is actually usable for growing plants. But I promise that is a huge mass of emerse plant and can absorb a lot of nutrient. If not, if there is space or possibility of a shelf above the tank, a balcony-type planter box could be rigged to serve the same function. The direct on the tank setup only requires a very small pump. Think about it.

A properly sized UV would kill the green water, but return all the nutrients to the tank - not as desirable as removing them.

[goldfish freak]

Actually I am more interested in breeding and raising Daphina for my fancy goldfish to eat than to clear my green water. Any clearing of green water that is performed by them would just be an added benefit. I figured that I could provide my goldfish with a good source of live food and clear my green water at the same time.

The addition of wood shrimp to the tank would hopefully aid in eliminating the green water as well. Basically I wanted to breed the daphnia and keep the wood shrimp to clear the green water and use the daphnia to feed my fancy goldfish and wood shrimp.

When the water does eventually clear, my plan would be to feed the daphnia to keep them going and to supplement the diest of the wood shrimp with additional food.

I have a wood canopy over my tank, so i don't think there is room to grow emerse plants, but thanks for the idea.

At present my fancy goldfish tank with the green water has no plants in it. I will be planting it soon with Java fern and a couple of Anubias species, and maybe some floating hornwort.

I was thinking that the addition of live plants(especially the hornwort) would suck alot of the nutrients out of the water that the algae in the needs to survive, thus reducing the amount of green water. and the Daphnia and wood shrimp would take care of what remained.

Would my idea with the pump attached to the refugium work if I installed the float switch? How would I go about installing the float switch? Is it a simple procedure?

[RTR]

Float switches are quite simple devices, effectively an electronic version of a toilet tank float and valve, just smaller. I have not used in several years, but the reefers do regularly, so the on-line merchants should have a selection.

Rearing Daphnia doesn't require much beyond green water. If you go to

http://fins.actwin.com/live-foods/

You can search for Daphnia and get a wide selection of handling techniques. separate setups (not refugium) will provide much better production and control. having two production tanks operating is good insurance against a crash.

Hornwort is a super nutrient sponge provided the goldfish don't tear it up - I have not tried them together. Water sprite is another, but it is so soft I suspect it would be salad bar.

A couple of gallons vs. 120 is not going to provide any significant effect, but yes, it would operate, and more safely with a float switch.

If the goldfish will actively compete with the shrimp fo the Daphnia,the shrimp will lose.