View Full Version : Street fairs and moral obligation
Inka4040
06-14-2008, 4:33 PM
Nothing p*'s me off like a street fair. Not that I don't enjoy walking around and perusing all the overpriced, over cooked food, but two things especially kill me every time.
1) the stand selling spread/preserved butterflies.
Moral, legal, ethical issues with the display of butterflies as art aside (we can argue that in PM if you so choose :D) it's the fact that these people are blatantly taking advantage of their customers. As an avid butterfly collector and displayer, there's something so fundamentally wrong with seeing something as expensive and rare as a poseidon birdwing displayed next to a ulysses swallowtail, and priced at the same point. Granted, he may lose a few bucks selling the birdwing, but to sell a Ulysses, sagebrush, tiger, or any of the paplio butterflies at those prices are just highway robbery.
2) Bonsai stands.
As a plant lover, I always peruse the plant/bonsai stands, as sometimes you can get some really nice phalenopsis morphs really cheaply. But today, I came across a fukien tea bonsai priced a over $1000.00, yes one thousand dollars. Obviously, most people willing to pop down 1000 dollars for a bonsai hopefully know at least a little bit about the growing, care, aesthetics, and appreciation of bonsai, so who was that plant there for? For the educated consumer, the back-crossing branches, heavy scarring, and gravel glued to the pot would steer all but most away, and for the neophile, there's no reason to spend that much money on something that may or may not live... So speaking as a bonsai lover, I saw for over a grand, a plant that most would recognize as (granted excellent) raw stock material, priced at a point where many would balk for a finished piece.
Herein lies the major moral dilemma though. Do I, as a consumer, have a responsibility to other consumers to inform them that they are being completely bilked? Or do I as a service industry worker myself, look the other way and say nothing? I know it's hard to get by in this economy, and it's not easy to turn a good profit without sometimes fudging the lines of truth a little bit, but A) where does one draw the line, and B) what should I even do in this situation?
At the moment, I ignored what was going on at two stands before finally breaking down and telling a woman my source for reasonably priced butterfly artwork, but even then I felt bad, because I was preventing that man from doing his job as well as he could. These two examples are just situations that happened today, but as fish people, this is a moral dilemma we face almost every time we enter a LFS. I'd love to hear some others sound off on this, unless I'm the only crazy who thinks about this stuff.
NeonFlux
06-14-2008, 4:53 PM
What about the goldfish game?
Inka4040
06-14-2008, 6:01 PM
I haven't seen one of those in existence since I was a wee lil one. Also I think street fair means something fundamentally different in NYC than it does elsewhere...
Native American
06-14-2008, 6:05 PM
Inka, my take is that if these people are buying this stuff "on a whim", then they deserve to be parted from their money. You have no responsibility to anybody who wants to spend that much. They are offering a ware, and let the free market economy take care of the rest.
Regards, N-A
Inka4040
06-14-2008, 6:19 PM
I understand your point completely Native American, and can't say I disagree, but this logic does not bear itself out fully. Taken in a vacuum, your statement makes perfect sense, but replace the bonsai tree or butterfly with puppy or anything else for that matter, it seems a bit more callous. To simplify what I got from your statement, would be to say, that it is always OK to take advantage of the uniformed or impulsive. Is it fair to charge 100 times the market value for something just because the buyer doesn't know any better? On the other hand, I know it's not my place to say anything, as a slip of the tongue for me may mean the difference between feeding his family or not. My general MO is to mind my own business, but I can't help thinking about these things long after the fact.
Rbishop
06-14-2008, 6:36 PM
Wheew, talk about blowing things out of proportion....
Easydoesit
06-14-2008, 7:33 PM
so very blunt^
i think that if people are buying those things without knowing enough about them to know that they are overpriced.. it means that they have that kind of money to spend, ya know?
cam191919
06-14-2008, 8:09 PM
i agree with the bonsia stand, but iv only seen them in the mall. they sell you, practicly weeds in a jar. oh and turtle stands, tho the last one i saw they were being well taken care of. it get annoying to see that stuff happen. somtimes i feel like punching people over that kind of stuff, especially at pet stores
125gJoe
06-14-2008, 8:28 PM
Wheew, talk about blowing things out of proportion....Yes... ...a little bit out of proportion...
:huh:
________
cam191919
06-14-2008, 9:15 PM
Yes... ...a little bit out of proportion...
:huh:
________
i dont get how you guys can stand that stuff. lucky. guess its my problem
j_chicago
06-14-2008, 9:58 PM
Agree, BUYER BEWARE No need to mess up other's enjoyment in the crap they bought overpriced, its their crap, not yours. Besides, Pottery Barn, Crate & Barrel, and others do it all day, everyday.
If your so concerned, buy a stand area at the next street fair, and sell the same stuff at a fair value.
And how can you say a dead butterfly is the same as a puppy? Have you ever tried selling a dead puppy, believe me its hard. I had to go to restaurants all over Chinatown to....:lipssealedsmilie:
Easydoesit
06-14-2008, 10:01 PM
its not your responsibility or obligation to educate potential buyers on a bad or unfair price. its the potential buyers responsibility to know and be aware. if they get scammed, they learn from it.. or theyre just dense. if it drives you nuts, maybe you could make a complaint to whoever you would complain to in this scenario... that's probably the most effective thing to do.
or stand by the stands with protest signs lol
Inka4040
06-14-2008, 10:49 PM
So basically what all of you are saying is that i have no moral obligation to do anything if I am watching someone get scammed? Is that part of the no snitching policy :D? You wouldn't feel bad for a person being made a chump of right in front of you? Buyer beware aside, wouldn't it be common courtesy to say something? No need to lecture or anything, but just a heads up. Me getting verbose with the first part may have made it seem like i was "blowing it out of proportion" but it was just something to think about.
Easydoesit
06-14-2008, 11:04 PM
yeah, i get the concept. i like seeing discussions about things like this sometimes. youd probably get a better reply on like.. a debate forum or something though. i really think that some people need to get "scammed" to learn.. even though it's learning the hard way. it definitely wouldnt be wrong of you to give them a heads up, but dont kill yourself over it and feel you need to tell everyone every time you see too high of prices at a stand or store.. that'd just get overwhelming.
it's not a part of the no snitching policy lol, nobody really fears those people selling things at stands.. unless they have a strange phobia. but like you said, maybe the seller relies on these silly spenders to get by. you never know.
j_chicago
06-14-2008, 11:14 PM
Think the no snitchin only applies to the po po (police).
If you want to be the guy who's inside the stand screaming "OH MY GOD, LOOK AT THESE PRICES! I CAN'T BELIEVE YOUR CHARGING $X FOR THIS X BUTTERFLY" then go ahead. But I'm sure everyone else will be looking at you going, "this guy is being annoying. Hey look hun, this one matches our sofas, and its only $X." I'm sure they didn't go to a street fair only to buy a butterfly or a bonsai tree.
Inka4040
06-14-2008, 11:37 PM
I'm sure they didn't go to a street fair only to buy a butterfly or a bonsai tree.
Valid point, but I'm not trying to limit it such narrow constraints. I'm talking about the concept in general, much like the no snitching reference. Trying to find out what you guys think OVERALL about this. Another thing I was thinking of, is there a difference between doing it to a big box store vs a small business? It definitely affects small businesses or individual merchants more, since they cannot afford to buy products at such cheap prices to begin with, so for me personally, I would definitely be more willing to say something at say a target or a petsmart (just examples), and probably wouldn't say much if anything at the local market.
On a side note, just wanted to say J_chicago, that that's totally not me. Not they type to raise any kind of fuss anywhere. What I'm talking about is more of a quiet side note to the consumer. Something like "you know you could get it cheaper here," rather than "I can't believe you're charging this much for this."
Easydoesit
06-14-2008, 11:45 PM
its not at all like the or a no snitching concept. a lot of people probably just don't know that those prices are ridiculous for the items, and the ones that do either say something, wonder if they should say anything, or leave it alone and think it's the buyers responsibility.
its not like the guy is getting crazy business with $1000 bonsai trees. it's almost(if not) an opportunistic job that they have.
Inka4040
06-14-2008, 11:48 PM
That's what I mean, who is that plant there for anyway? Anyone who would pay knows better, and anyone who doesn't know better wouldn't pay.
j_chicago
06-14-2008, 11:51 PM
Maybe they are relying on it to be a barging point, so they can have some room to negotiate a lower, but profitable price.
Easydoesit
06-14-2008, 11:56 PM
true, opportunistic. the randomness of it all(bonsai trees and butterflies) makes it even more opportunistic.. or it might be part of the ploy, some widely-known among stand sellers rule-"it has to be random and not very popular/widely available or too many people will know that the prices are too high." seems like if theyre even targeting anyone, that theyre targeting the people with money to spare on random, interesting things. if they were more popular, then their target buyers would know about the prices and could just get them elsewhere. id just let the guy get on with his high hopes of selling bunches of $1000 bonsai trees.
Easydoesit
06-14-2008, 11:56 PM
Maybe they are relying on it to be a barging point, so they can have some room to negotiate a lower, but profitable price.
that sounds more likely
captaincaveman9
06-15-2008, 12:32 AM
Agree, BUYER BEWARE No need to mess up other's enjoyment in the crap they bought overpriced, its their crap, not yours. Besides, Pottery Barn, Crate & Barrel, and others do it all day, everyday.
If your so concerned, buy a stand area at the next street fair, and sell the same stuff at a fair value.
And how can you say a dead butterfly is the same as a puppy? Have you ever tried selling a dead puppy, believe me its hard. I had to go to restaurants all over Chinatown to....:lipssealedsmilie:
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
125gJoe
06-15-2008, 1:48 AM
"Pet Rocks" - go figure... ..it's the same...
http://www.virtualpet.com/vp/farm/petrock/petrock.htm
"But Ken Hakuta does have an explanation for the periodic success of what he calls "useless dumb jokes" like the Pet Rock: It gave people a few moments of absolutely meaningless pleasure in a troubled world - no small accomplishment. "If there were more fads," Hakuta observed, "there would probably be a lot fewer psychiatrists. ... Instead of paying $100-an-hour therapy sessions, you could just get yourself a couple of Wacky Wallwalkers (a rubber toy that sticks and wiggles on a wall, which earned Hakuta $20 million) and a Slinky and lock yourself up in a room for a couple of hours. When you came out, you'd be fine."
..no worries...
:D
________
Inka4040
06-15-2008, 3:36 AM
So you're saying it's retail therapy? As in the people who buy that stuff are doing so only for the pleasure of buying it, and not for the actual desire for the object? I'm not sure I follow completely.
Lady G
06-15-2008, 4:51 AM
I say....you do what you think you should. Everyone is different in these situations, if you are one who can not just stand by and let it happen then don't, you have no obligation...and others make good points on it. You have to be you though, so if you feel you NEED to say something then do..but be prepared for the "look" of who do you think you are, and some not so nice choice words that may be thrown in your direction. If it was a dealer somewhere it would be different though IMO.
Rbishop
06-15-2008, 4:57 AM
If folks are foolish enough to buy overpriced stuff then so be it. I don't feel we have a moral obligation to stop it or interfere.
Caveat emptor... Let the buyer beware. If some paint on canvas can sell for millions... If a clear, shiny cut rock can sell for thousands... or millions... etc. In these cases and yours we are talking about someone buying something for it aesthetic value. There is almost no limit on what people will shell out for something they like to look at.
But if you buy any book or product being hawked by Kevin Trudeau you have been duped and someone needs to slap you.
Q
Inka4040
06-15-2008, 12:21 PM
I feel that my choice of examples may have unduly colored the responses. Like I said before, even in the most egregious cases, the most I would find it necessary to do would be a quiet word to the customer. Do these same sort of sentiments apply to say, electronics, or the guy at the LFS who wants to buy an oscar, a rtc, and a tiger shovelnose for a 15 gallon tank? Don't worry, I don't spend my time running from booth to booth raising a scene. Just thought it would be an interesting discussion.
Rbishop
06-15-2008, 12:28 PM
I wouldn't be able to equate informing a person of the incorrect decision of a large fish in a small tank, to somebody paying too much for something. I think if the customer questioned me on the price, I would volunteer the info though.
Inka4040
06-15-2008, 1:59 PM
I used the fish example because it seems to show a different side of the caveat emptor, "do your research" attitude. What about in this forum setting? If someone posted that they were about to buy X product from X company, is it then acceptable to tell them that it could be sourced cheaper elsewhere, despite the fact that they did not ask for that information? LOL sorry for the long discussion. If you couldn't tell, ethics was one of my favorite subjects in college.
Rbishop
06-15-2008, 2:10 PM
Posting here, it is implied that you are asking for input, as our TOS states. Same as a person asking you a question.
"However, Aquaria Central permits others to make judgments about your Messages. "
Mgamer20o0
06-15-2008, 2:11 PM
i think your going to far into saying people are trying to scam them with out knowing........
look they are not forcing them to buy. i see the same thing on ebay..... people with buy it now 20%-50% heck some times 2-3 times the price it goes for but now and then they sell it. just cuz someone sees it and buys it since they like it. if he can sell that $1000 tree more power to them......
Inka4040
06-15-2008, 2:28 PM
i think your going to far into saying people are trying to scam them with out knowing........
Yeah, I guess it only looks like a scam if you know what the thing is really worth. Thanks for explaining the difference between doing this here on AC and elsewhere RBishop. Again, I was just posting this to get a discussion going, so everyone can go ahead and stop thinking I'm that sort of nut (cuz I probably am some sort of nut :D)
Interesting thread :)
You are almost certainly not a nut :D (I say almost certainly because you can never tell :D))
I am often reminded of the maxim de minimis non curat lex, which means that the law does not concern itself with trivialities, and I see overpriced goods as being probably some way short of an infringement of the moral law but even if they were accross a line this would probably not be severe enough to do anything but vote with your wallet and not purchase from such places.
That, and a fool and his money are soon parted.
As regards the comparison of a person attempting to stock a 15 gallon with a nurse shark I think one could correctly consider oneself under a moral obligation to say something for the sake of the creature involved ('hey you'll need a protein skimmer' or something I don't know I'm not a salty).
Hooked Newbie
06-15-2008, 2:42 PM
I agree with buyer beware. If there's a market for an overpriced item, they'll sell it. If they quit selling them enough to maintain profitability, they'll find another product or go out of business. It's free market economics. Speaking of which, I need to book my booth for my "super-rare guppy" stand. They're a real bargain at only $180 ea.
Rbishop
06-15-2008, 2:57 PM
I agree with buyer beware. If there's a market for an overpriced item, they'll sell it. If they quit selling them enough to maintain profitability, they'll find another product or go out of business. It's free market economics. Speaking of which, I need to book my booth for my "super-rare guppy" stand. They're a real bargain at only $180 ea.
Lady G will buy three....
cam191919
06-15-2008, 3:00 PM
iv got a male guppy, with no special fins er nothin. but this isnt the place for him
Inka4040
06-15-2008, 6:18 PM
Anyone remember Uncle Junkin's diamond pooping bettas?
eroomlorac
06-15-2008, 6:36 PM
What about the goldfish game?
Oh, believe me, these still exist. This past weekend we had our faire in town and there was a goldfish game. *sigh*
Man sooner or later everything around here gets turned on to fish this and fish that...oh...wait...
Hooked Newbie
06-15-2008, 8:04 PM
Man sooner or later everything around here gets turned on to fish this and fish that...oh...wait...
:laugh:
Lady G
06-15-2008, 9:55 PM
Lady G will buy three....
:silly:
Hooked Newbie
06-15-2008, 10:04 PM
:silly:
Don't hate! I'll PM you my paypal ID, I'll even throw in free shipping! lol
Lady G
06-15-2008, 10:57 PM
Don't hate! I'll PM you my paypal ID, I'll even throw in free shipping! lol
LMAO!!! Would you really....awwwww, you are soooo sweet *hugs* Oh, wait your not offering to pay for it are you.:silly:
excuzzzeme
06-15-2008, 11:39 PM
I think if you are truly appalled at what you see, then you have an obligation to report your concerns to the authoring body that licenses these events. You can and should file a grievance with your state Attorney General as well. Going beyond legal measures does not make you right, it makes you a vigilante with your own set of rules that you are imposing on another. You could be arrested for disturbing the peace and/or sued for interfering with the right to livelihood.
When waging a war you must chose the battles, even then victory is not assured. I cast only stones that cannot be cast back at me causing me to lose.
Inka4040
06-16-2008, 2:31 AM
I think if you are truly appalled at what you see, then you have an obligation to report your concerns to the authoring body that licenses these events. You can and should file a grievance with your state Attorney General as well. Going beyond legal measures does not make you right, it makes you a vigilante with your own set of rules that you are imposing on another. You could be arrested for disturbing the peace and/or sued for interfering with the right to livelihood.
When waging a war you must chose the battles, even then victory is not assured. I cast only stones that cannot be cast back at me causing me to lose.
How crazy do I seem to you people? What have I done????
*ahem* Nobody seems crazy to anybody (i can send certificates if needed), particularly arising out of this very interesting conversation which like all internet conversations is capable of being taken to personal levels although that would of course never happen over here in the General Chit Chat area of AC, the friendliest aquarium site on the web :) :D :)
How crazy do I seem to you people? What have I done????
What you have done is shown how different people have different opinions on how to handle, or not, a situation where someone else may or may not be getting ripped off.
Q
wataugachicken
06-16-2008, 8:17 AM
Agree, BUYER BEWARE No need to mess up other's enjoyment in the crap they bought overpriced, its their crap, not yours. Besides, Pottery Barn, Crate & Barrel, and others do it all day, everyday.
If your so concerned, buy a stand area at the next street fair, and sell the same stuff at a fair value.
And how can you say a dead butterfly is the same as a puppy? Have you ever tried selling a dead puppy, believe me its hard. I had to go to restaurants all over Chinatown to....:lipssealedsmilie:
its not your responsibility or obligation to educate potential buyers on a bad or unfair price. its the potential buyers responsibility to know and be aware. if they get scammed, they learn from it.. or theyre just dense. if it drives you nuts, maybe you could make a complaint to whoever you would complain to in this scenario... that's probably the most effective thing to do.
or stand by the stands with protest signs lol
its not at all like the or a no snitching concept. a lot of people probably just don't know that those prices are ridiculous for the items, and the ones that do either say something, wonder if they should say anything, or leave it alone and think it's the buyers responsibility.
its not like the guy is getting crazy business with $1000 bonsai trees. it's almost(if not) an opportunistic job that they have.
If folks are foolish enough to buy overpriced stuff then so be it. I don't feel we have a moral obligation to stop it or interfere.
Okay. . . but how many times a week do we tell people to print out the Petsmart website prices and bring them into the store? Or steer them towards craigslist and classified ads rather than always buying new?
I guess there is a difference between offering assistance which is sought, and offering unsolicited advice. To do the latter, for me personally, there would have to be some greater evil in question than an overpriced item for sale. In the absence of this I would mind my own beeswax rather than intervene there and then in somebody's shop.