Had Enough!

[Mini Me]

I am getting fed up with fishkeeping as nothing seems to go right for me. I have a 300liter tank (48"x20"x24") which has been set-up for around a year now, I do weekly water changes (with dechlorinator) of around 70 liters along with gravel vacing and alternate week filter cleaning (I have 2 big filters on it, 1 internal fluval jumbo and 1 external fluval 304) one week I clean the internal and the next i clean the external and so on. Its a planted tank with DIY Co2 and the plants are growing fine. Dispite all my best efforts at tank maintenance, even at this point in time I have multiple diseases in the tank and its really getting me down. Some of the fish have white spot, some have fin rot and some have some kind of white fungal growth, and ontop of all that I have some wierd 'worm' things living in my gravel. The livestock in the tank are :
2 angelfish
2 clown loaches (2")
4 african butterfly cichlids (1-1.5")
2 blue acaras (2")
2 ottos
2 swordtails
7 herlequins (altho i suspect one has died as I havent seen it for a while)
8 rummy noses
2 neon tetras (again I think one has died)
2 bristlenoses
2 apistogramma agassizi
1 jade eye cichlid (is that the same as blue eye cichlid?) (2")

As u can see the tank is deffinatly not over stocked as they'r all small at the moment, and even when they'r fully grown that will be an ok tank stocking level yes?
The water parameters are pH : 7.2, Ammonia 0, NitrAte 0 most of the time, NitrIte 0, GH 7, KH 3-4. and tap water is the same but with pH 7.6
I have tried treating with melafix which didnt seem to do much and also have tried a white spot treatment and raised the temp to 82F (normally 79F) which seems to have helped somewhat

Can anyone see what i'm doing wrong here? :mad: :confused: :mad:

[ChilDawg]

Originally posted by Mini Me
1 jade eye cichlid (is that the same as blue eye cichlid?) (2")

I'll have to mull over the more important aspects of the question, but this mini-question's answer is yes. Both are Archocentros spilurum.

[Glenstorm]

What are you feeding these fish? Maybe there are dietary deficiencies. Your maintenance seems ok to me.

[MonoSebaelover]

Which fish have the disease? You will be a bit overstocked when they reach adulthood (but the Angels will take care of most tetras when adult-tetras are perfectly swallow sized). The only problem I see is ya do have a lot of Cichlids and then keeping them with known peaceful fish such as tetras can be a bit stressful. I agree as to question what the diet is since everything else seems to be okay. I'm kinda suprised you don't have any nitrate (even though it is a planted tank) with that many fish. Might just be my opinion but yah. Anyway, hope this helps and it will help us to know what fish have what disease.

[KateA.]

I would guess that it's a compatibility-stress related problem, as far as the diseases. It certainly isn't over stocked, but maybe someone is being harrassed all the time. It just takes one, it seems, to upset everything. Melafix is usually great for repairing fins and mild fungal troubles. Parasites and diseases sometimes take 2-3 weeks to fully eradicate. As far as the little wigglers in your gravel, aren't those some sort of nematode?? I'm surprised the clown loach hasn't eaten them all. And aren't they a sign of overfeeding? Maybe try siphoning a bit more to get rid of them? Have you tested other levels in the tank, like oxygen?

[demon_surfer]

ok, I think this is a stress problem...even semi aggresive cichlids like the jade eye and acara are too much for peaceful fish like the neons and the harlequin (I am assuming this is a harlequin rasbora??) .

Anyway, i am goign to say you need to decide if you want to have the cichlids or the tetras and then remove which ever side you dont decide on.

I would say the diseases are coming from the cichlids stressing out the more timid fish and the diseases then spread to the other fish.

Plus the acara get to 8inchs and the jade eye get to about 5 inchs...at this length they will start inhaling the tetras and probably trying to eat the harlequins too. Plus the angels are the natural predators of the neons and cardinals.

It may not be what you want to hear but I am sure that is where the problem is coming from...

The other possiblity I can think of is that you bought your fish from a bad petstore where they got the diseases. however you said you had the fish for 1 year? did you recently add any fish??

i hope this helps

[wetmanNY]

Too many things going wrong at once. Which book are you using?

[Mini Me]

Thanks for the help all.

Two things I missed off the list is 6 guppys and 1 oapline gourami.

Ill try and remember which fish have what, one of the bristlenoses has some sort of whife fingal patch on its head inbetween the bristles, the neon tetra also has a similar patch but that may ne neon tetra disease. Fish that had white spot are : 1 angelfish, 1 clown locah 2 acaras a few rummy's. The fin rot killed 3 male guppys, and 2 female which left me with 5 female and 1 male, of which the last male has finrot, but this was no ordinary fin rot, it was some super finrot, it would strip the fish of its fins overnight! (and this was before I had most of the cichlids, just the apisto's) but the finrot in the now seems tobe the normal one. Regarding the worm thing I posted pics here (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14142)

I got the 4 butterflys, 2 acaras and the jade eye about a month ago, but even before then the fish have had diseases and those fish came from a ver reputable place, which was voted best retailer 2002.

As far as the aggression theory, the angels used to chase the guppys away, but that was ages ago like 4 months or something and they dont bother any of the fish now. I havent seen any aggression from the other cichlids. The one fish that I have seen chase another is the gourami chasing the jade eye when i first got the jade eye but that seems to have stopped now

I feed the fish a mix of King British flakes, hagen(i think) algae flakes,King British freeze dried bloodworm, hikari cichlid pellets, Kin British sinking catfish pellets and last week I got some frozen blood worms. How much I peu in is once a day I put a sprinkle of the flakes, algae flakes and a small amount of freeze dried bloodworms (mixed in one tub), about 10-15 of the small cichlid pellets and about 8-10 of the catfish pellets(those small round brown colour ones), and I will now probably give them a cube of frozen bloodworms each week. All of the food seems to be eaten strait away. If I was over feeding then there would be nirite or ammonia in the water wouldnt there?

Thanks fo ryour help everyone

[Mini Me]

WetmanNY - what do you mean by book?

[yashinfan]

8-10 cat fish pellets a day is quite a lot! It takes them a long time to eat one, so I can imagine 7-9 others wasting away. I would recommend feeding two, twice a day. Other wise it's making a lot of excess waste.

[demon_surfer]

the diseases are all in the tank because of stress there are a few things to look at


aggression
dirty water
the wrong water conditions
the wrong temperature
bad diet
some kind of need not met (eg hiding places)

I may have missed something but you need to see which of these it is. The fish are not just magically getting these diseases.

[MonoSebaelover]

Also you have a TON of fish in that tank. You almost have one fish per gallon of water. That will be a big problem. So I would suggest either going with Cichlids or the tetras, gourami and catfish. Either way you need to get rid of a bunch of fish. So anyway, do this and diseases should shut down. Anyway, hope this helps.

[BluEyes]

how long have all the fish been in there? I mean, you say the aquarium has been up over a year, but when was your most recent fish purchase? Possibly the LFS doesn't have the most healthy stock?

[cdawson]

That's definately an issue of overstocking/ aggression problem. African cichlids shouldn't be mixed with anything other than other african cichlids. Not to mention if your acaras are male/female they're going to be very aggressive to the other tankmates. Also the africans require harder water/ higher ph, the south american cousins you also have require lower ph and softer water. The tetras will also require softer water as well as the rasboras, the otos, the plecos. You really need to make a decision and get rid of alot of fish.

[Matak]

Originally posted by Mini Me
WetmanNY - what do you mean by book? I believe he means 'what is your source of information for fish keeping?'

[wetmanNY]

Yes. I like David Boruchowitz, The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums. You can't get the whole picture without a book.

Everyone needs a book! I have.. erm... several...

[delmore]

Originally posted by Mini Me

I got the 4 butterflys, 2 acaras and the jade eye about a month ago, but even before then the fish have had diseases and those fish came from a ver reputable place, which was voted best retailer 2002.



Yikes! you added fish to a tank that had problems with disease? That's not cricket! If it was my tank, I would leave the cichlids in the tank, and move the other fish to a different tank, and do lots of water changes, like 40% per day. You could also do the med route, but some believe that water changes are the best and most natural solution. But i am not speaking from first hand experience, I've never had a prpblem with disease in my tanks since I quarantine my fish for at least a month, have plants, do regular water changes an gravel vaccuming, and keep stocking levels reasonable.

Good luck and please hang in there!

[The Gipper]

Fish - huh! - what are they good for - absolutely nothin'...


Oh, sorry, ...

Too many fish too soon, adding fish with others sick, yikes. Sounds like alot of fish all together, but what are your water parameters (nitrite, nitrates), what kind of filtration, live plants or not, etc....

[Mini Me]

Well I better change my stock list to only onw bristlenose, as the male died today.

I really carnt see it being overstocked, but i spen quite abit of time just watching the fish earlyer and there does seem tobe some aggression in there, but it seems tobe within the cichlids, they dont seem to chase the tetras at all.

[MonoSebaelover]

You don't see how it is overstocked? As I said in my earlier post you have almost one fish per gallon of water. Now the general rule (I hate general rules) is one INCH of fish per gallon, not one fish. By the way that is considering the adult size of the fish and all your fish are young. If you were to total adult sizes of all those fish, you have approximatly 102 inches of adult fish (when they reach max and even that is under what it probably is since I don't know the adult size of some of the Africans so just approximated at 3"). I would only put that bio-load in a 125 (but I wouldn't keep Africans with tetras). So as I said earlier decide on the africans or the tetras. Which ever one you decide on you will have to get rid of all the others. Even if there is no visible aggression to the tetras they are still stressed by the presence the bickering between the cichlids. So if you want to end the disease you have to get rid of one set of fish or the diseases will eventually do it for you (and I can guarentee you if that happens you will be left with the Cichlids). Anyway, hope this helps and hope you act soon.

[cdawson]

I second what monosebaelover wrote, if you don't do something fast you're not going to have any more fish left to be stubborn about. If you follow those "general rules" you're going to fail as a fish keeper (I learned the hard way, I recommend you don't. It's expensive). Your fish are all young, and not even close to full size. One by one those fish will die or be killed by the cichlids. Whether or not you see it happening now. Admit you made mistakes and fix them or the diseases will continue as will your dying fish.

[wayne]

I think
1. You have a lot of fish, inc. quite a few cichlids - I'd get the acara out now. They're peaceful but will get too large. The african butterflies are riverine so the pH/kh isn't an issue. The spilurum (blue eye) may or may not get spiky - mine were definitely NOT community safe..
2. If you have worms in your gravel I'd consider it dirty, and a probable source/home for unhelpful bacteria. More, better gravel vacs, and watch that feeding
3. Go for 2 smaller water changes twice a week - 20 litres or something
4. Home made CO2 - are you turning it off at night? Beware pH swings - measure it at mid day, then just before dawn and see what the numbers are

[mdfwhite]

Where does your water come from that u use for water changing.It could be the problem (u said u had parasites/worms).Try changing this.

You will have to get meds to get rid of the infections then use carbon in you filter for a month to remove the meds, once its done its job

Your pH/gH is to high for tetras,apistogrammas,bristlenose, you'll have to check but i think harlequins too.

And try repacing only 10% of you water weekly as this we be less stressful and gravel-clean only as nessesary, depends on size and how many fish u have.

U are gravel-cleaning to often, to much disturbance will stress fish and make conditions worse, and u may kill the benifical bacteria, not enough and u will have problems also, as u probably already know.

Thats all i can think of.
Hope that helps
p.s remember your not keeping fish,your keeping water,get the water right and your fish will be happy

[mayreee]

Good suggestions but all the comments you are making are from really old posts. So I am sure they have solved their problems by now. I accidently did it once too when I first came here. :D

[happychem]

There are three things that jump out at me right away when I read through your first post.

First, you have too many fish of too disparate types. Inch per gallon does not even come close to applying here, your cichids need more room to establish territories, and this means having things like caves for them, which takes up space.

Second, insufficient water changes. You should be aiming at a minimum 50% per week. Changing more water will not stress the fish. You don't need to do it all at the same time, two back to back 30% changes will be just as good. The closer your tank water chemistry to source (tap) chemistry, the better. People who claim that changing lots of water per week stresses fish don't change their water enough. What stresses fish is the buildup of organics in the water from fish wastes, you cannot measure these, but they're there.

Third, your nitrAte level is not 0, it is impossible. Even in an understocked tank, which yours is not.

Don't look at overstocking as a failure, we've all done it, I once had a 10g tank with 3 swordtails (+fry), 3 albino cories, 2 plecos (yikes!) and a declining number of tetras, first neons, then king blues. Look at it as an excuse to get another tank. :D

[9tails]

I do weekly water changes (with dechlorinator) of around 70 liters along with gravel vacing and alternate week filter cleaning (I have 2 big filters on it, 1 internal fluval jumbo and 1 external fluval 304) one week I clean the internal and the next i clean the external and so on.

What are you cleaning? I don't touch my filters for 3 months or so, apart from changing the prefilter gauze which catches all the crud. I'm not sure how these filters work, but I thought the bacteria needed to build up over a length of time to cope with the waste.