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treacle

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Jul 22, 2003
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Hi folks

Back again to bend your ear with some bothersome queries.

After about two months I have started getting a little algae problem in my tank -@ 15 gal. 3 small fish -panda moor, pearl scale, fantail, & 2 bigger fish - black moor, indeterminate goldfish(veiltail?)

The pet shop suggested I might try a Green Away treatment which recommends that the PH value of the water must be between 6.5 and 8.5 before use.

So I bought a test kit at the same time and having just changed two thirds of the water obviously the nitrate/nitrite value was at an acceptable level but the PH value was worryingly high.

The colour chart with the kit only goes up to 8.5 and it was certainly registering the corresponding colour to that, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was above the 8.5 mark?

Our water has quite a substantial limescale content, which I imagine must be the primary contributing factor and bar the extremely expensive idea of buying gallons of mineral water, or spending days boiling and cooling tap water, I am stumped for any sensible ideas.

I wondered if anyone could offer me some possible solutions to reducing the PH value of the water to a level that will make my fish a little happier with their environment.

I should tell you that I inherited the tank with one of the fish and although I assume the water was changed, it does not appear as though the gravel was cleaned regularly, once a month. Since I believed this might be a contributing factor to the algae problem, I decided to do another two thirds water change/gravel clean, only a week after my second monthly two thirds water change/gravel clean to try and reduce the amount of crap lingering in the gravel.


I have also discovered from the pet shop owner that my five fish are more than is recommended for this size tank which is @ 12" x 24" x15" (only after he flogged four of them to me (':eek:') !!) and as we've become so attached to all of them there is no way I would want to give any back to him (besides they have loads more room to swim around in my tank than the rather crowded ones in the pet shop)

I therefore wondered if I can compensate for the amount of waste produced by the five fish with more frequent or more substantial water changes/gravel cleaning than the procedure recommended by him of 10 per cent water change every week and two thirds on the fourth week.

For example I was wondering if I could keep the nitrate level down to an acceptable amount with a two thirds water change every fortnight? However if this is to be my routine, I guess there will be an even bigger necessity for finding a means of reducing the PH levels resulting from our tap water.

With my utmost thanks in advance as always in the hope that one of this happy band of fish fanciers will take the time and the trouble to respond with some solutions for my somewhat tedious troubles - and there was me when we saved the one fish from its frightful fate before being thrown in the park pond, thinking it would be a doddle, no twice daily walks, just a matter of throwing a bit of fish food in once in a while, little did I know what I was letting myself in for (':)')

TTFN
Bernard
 
im not sure about the limescale in the water. The algae will grow when there is food in the water and a little light for it to grow. Your goldfish will create alot of food. I find a good way to combat it is to use live plants, these will (hopefully) outcompete the algae for the food and therefore the algae wont grow!

I can attest that this works because in my 55 I had a couple of plants on one side of my tank die out (crappy petsmart *grumblegrumble*) and that side of the tank was immediatly plastered in algae where as the other side that still had healthy plants was bare.

I am not sure what you could put in with the gold fish that they would not eat but a big ball of maybe java fern or java moss might work. They are great beginner plants.

Other than that you will have to bump up your cleaning regime, most people recommend doing a 20% water change each week. Some say a couple of times a week.
 
Thanks a million Sir Surfer, or can I call you Demon (':)')

It's good you mentioned plants as that was another of my queries I forgot to mention.

The tank came with assorted plastic plants, log and we have added two real plants and some pretty shells

The algae first appeared on our big white shell. After I took it out and scrubbed it clean, the algae next appeared a few days later on the glass and after cleaning this, most recently it has appeared on one of the real plants (but not on anything plastic)

It is only the smoothed leaf plant and not the tiny spiky leaves of the other real plant, so it was pretty easy to wipe off.

(the other wispy spiky leaved plant is my indicator of when the fish need feeding, as once they get hungry they start pulling it apart, I only hope it grows quickly because they tear it out of the metal clip holding it in the gravel and it gets a little shorter each time I reclamp it together)

I was therefore wasn't sure if I should replace the plastic plants with real ones or vice-versa and so I am glad of your advice

Now all I need (for the moment!) is a means by which to reduce the high PH level. Also I wondered if I do more frequent water changes/gravel clean, can I do any damage to their environment.

Say for example I decided to replace two thirds of the water every week, or every fortnight (with 20 per cent between times), can I prevent the necessary good microbes from flourishing as I keep removing them with the waste

Many thanks for all your help once again
TTFN
Bernard
 
Two's company, three's a crowd

First, the pH is fine. Forget about it. Goldfish like hard water and higher pH levesl are not really a problem. If you can drink this water they'll be OK.

The algae treatments you have can be of the sort that make the algae clump together so the filter can remove them or they sink to the bottom. Be aware that these can interfere with the fish gills and smother them. These would be the sort of treatments for green water.

Is this the sort of algae that is on the glass walls of the tank? Your goldfish will consider this quite a treat if you will scrape it off and let it fall to the bottom of the tank. They love algae. In a pond they will spend their entire day picking up gravel and trying to suck the algae off of it.

If you can make peace with this algae it will help you process the nitrates in the tank. Can you leave the algae on the back and perhaps one side of the tank, and keep the other sides clean for viewing? You can, if you have sufficient light, try plants, but be aware that the goldfish love plants for all day snacking and as the plants are shredded they could add to the nitrate problem. A rock of bit of fish-safe driftwood wrapped with java moss would be a good start.

Otherwise you must reduce the fuel for the algae, you have too many fish. 15 gallons is enough for 1 goldfish, two is pushing it. Five is ridiculous. With this many fish you need to be doing massive waterchanges, frequently. And you need massive filtration. A goldfish newsgroup that I read said you should have 15x tank volume per hour. Change enough water often enough to keep your nitrates at 20 or less. You need to know how much nitrate is in the tap water first, though.
 
i am a little hazy on the conversion from L to gallon so i didnt want to comment but anona is right. Goldfish get HUGE, and i do mean huge. Ive seen some that look like an over stuff softball with fins glued on. Im sure you have noticed how much they...er...crap. :D

If you are not looking to get a bigger tank i suggest you pick out 1 or 2 of your favorites and take back the rest..This will make your job of keeping the algae easier too because it will have less food. I know taking fish back is not something most fish keepers want to here but it really is best for the fish here.

to the plants again anonas suggestion of drift wood liberally wrapped with java moss would be a good start. Another good way to go would buy a huge clump of java fern and spread it around the tank. Either should grow like crazy. Hopefully fast enough to avoid being eaten! :) I would experiment with cheaper plants before you go for anything expensive or you could just be giving them an expensive snack :)

hth

ps you can call me whatever yah want lol :D
 
Oh my gawd, you've got me feeling like ***in now, locking all my little chil'len into such a small place (':)')

I guess the fact that three of the five fish are merely an inch to an inch and a half long - @2.5cms for the benefit of our more modern metric pals (pearl scale is just like a tiny ballon, fantail and my favourite the panda moor) and the other two are four inches (veiltail? and greedy black moor) would not make you reappraise your opinion that I should either loose some fish or get a bigger tank?

There should be just four because I got the black Moor as company for the fish we adopted and then two small fish. However when my missus found our first panda Moor floating on the surface during the heatwave we had in London a few weeks back, she was really blubbing when she called me to give me the bad news.

The goggle-eyed little fella was everybodies favourite and Ro was so distressed when he disappeared to the great goldfish pond in the sky that I went to try and replace him. However since there were no more panda Moors, I thought the Pearl Scale might make her smile because he/she is so incredibly odd looking (and was about the tiniest coldwater fish in the shop)

Although I shouldn't have got this one because I kept pestering the pet shop geezer to get some more panda Moors and when these eventually came in a few weeks later there was no way I was going to be able to walk in there every couple of days for dog/cat grub without coming home eventually with one of these odd looking bug-eyed little buggers

I managed to resist at first but then the next morning I walked in to the shop (as we were toying with the idea of actually buying the gaff until he revealed today that he's had a substantial offer which I can't afford to match) and someone had bought the one I'd picked as my favourite (almost entirely white one) and my resistance immediately collapsed and I collared an almost exact replica of our last panda.

The sentimental old gits that we are, we've become so attached to them all that there is no way I could give any of them back to the shop. What's more they wouldn't be any better off there because his stock of fish does not always sell particularly quickly and as a result they might be stuck for months in tanks that are dreadfully overfilled by all acounts and certainly a lot more crowded than mine.

So I guess it is either a bigger tank, or another tank which are my only options. Although at this precise moment I don't think I can afford an entire additional set-up. As I've mentioned, we only have this tank because when we saved the first fish from an unthinkable fate in the pond in the park I was asking the bloke carrying it how big a tank I would need and he said that if I drove around to them now, I could pick up the one that they were about to throw out.

In the meantime (assuming I have managed to retain anyone's attention this far) I would be extremely grateful for some assistance in clarifying a couple of things for the benefit of my humble efforts to keep the fish happy.

I am not really too bothered about the algae as far as viewing is concerned. It was more that I was worried it might be bad for the fish. At the moment it seems that the Green Away treatment has had no/little effect and that no sooner have I cleaned it off the glass, a shell, or a plant than it migrates elsewhere.

I changed two/thirds of the water on Saturday and cleaned the algae off one of the live plants and today I see that it has settled anew on one of the plastic plants (it appears to prefer smooth surfaces). So in your much valued opinion should I leave the algae to continue developing? I don't think it would fall off onto the gravel if I wiped it in the tank, but would just end up on the cloth I used. Also is the algae certain evidence that the nitrate level is high as from what I've read or heard, light seems like it plays a part in promoting the growth?

And assuming I leave the algae to develop to help deal with nitrate, what point does it become a problem (ie. can there be too much algae)

After reading your post today I ran out and bought three plants to replace plastic ones in the tank that I inherited. When we got the tank the one additional thing I needed to spend some money on was the filter. However being such a skint cheapskate, I went for the least expensive one in the shop (Interpet IPF1 Duo). Obviously I now appreciate that this was a false economy (cheap is cheap (':mad:')) and I guess I will need to get a more powerful one. But I wonder how much of a difference it will make. That is to say I think it was the next one up which was the filter recommended for my size tank but I want to know if it would be of considerable benefit to my fish if I went for the most powerful (and priciest) filter I can afford?

One of the reasons I am minded to ask about the filter is that despite the ridiculous number of fish in my tank, apart from the first week of using the filter (where the gravel in the bottom came with the tank which had obviously never had a filter working previously!) when there was a lot to come off when I cleaned the sponge, every week since the amount of waste in the sponge appears to have gone down to the point where the past couple of weeks it has hardly seemed worth cleaning because there has been so little on it?

With regard to the water change regimen I adopt, considering that I am the dunderhead who decided to do the decathlon before I could walk, by buying three fish too many, it might be loads of aggro but I am quite prepared to do a two-thirds water change/gravel clean every week, if that is what it takes to prevent my missus suffering a repeat of the trauma she experienced with the passing of our first panda Moor

The pet shop chap told me that the little Moors are prone to "giving up" very easily and these were extreme circumstances. He was also in something of a flap at the time himself as his fish were apparently "dropping like flies" in the unusually warm weather. Almost every time I went in there they were busy replenishing their tanks with cool tap water to try and keep the temperatures in them down (and no doubt save his stock!)

My biggest concern with adding two-thirds of our horrible tap water (it is drinkable but we all avoid doing so, unless boiled in tea because it is obvious from the residue in the kettle and the stains on the sink that there are vast quantities of limescale in this very hard water - whenever we go away from London we are both always very aware of the change in water and in most cases spend half an hour trying to wash the soap off our hands because the soft water leaves you with the impression that they remain soapy!) every week is that my tank will never get a chance to develop a decent environment for the fish (ie. I'm afraid I will throwing out all the good microbe babies with the bath water)

Finally (phew! - although I am sure I'll think of a hundred other queries the moment I make with the 'submit' button (':)') ), I note your suggestion for a "rock of bit of fish-safe driftwood wrapped with java moss" and my other friendly forum mate's mentionj of "java fern". Is this something I would have to find myself, or am I likely to find it in a decent pet-shop here in London? I drew a complete blank in my local gaff, but then he's not exactly the brightest button on the shirtfront (although saying that, he has just screwed some gullible mug for many grands worth of moolah for a shop that between you me and the fence post, wasn't worth a penny, especially as the past few months he's been so disinterested in it that we've been lucky if he's bothered opening every day at all, let alone from 3.30pm - 6pm as stated on the door!)

The only java I know if is the coffee and the computer language (and I ain't particularly familiar with either of these). I haven't the foggiest about the fern or the moss (although one of the plants I bought which the fish love pulling apart looks like a fern of some sort). And you don't often find much driftwood here in London. I suppose that's why my tank had a plastic type imitation jobby in it (which sounded like it was about to melt when I poured boiling water on it to clean it originally). So what makes driftwood 'fish-safe' and do pet shops usually sell bits of it. Treacle our staff/mastiff cross is very good at finding wood in the park, but it only drifts when I throw it in the pond for her and she invariably ends up eating it (':)')

Anyway I will be pleasantly surprised if anyone actually has nothing better to do than read this rambling missive but if you have, I would be extremely grateful for your continued patience in lending me the benefit of the sort of experience that is far more reassuring than the pet shop owner who is not such a bad bloke, but in the absence of any certain answers to my queries, he might just be happy encouraging me buy another bottle of chemicals of some sort!!

Thanks a million for taking the trouble to get back to me

TTFN
Bernard
 
I have nothing better to do...arnt you happy? :D

ok i hope i can remeber all your questions..lets start at the top

about the number of fish -
Your right at the moment they are fine in the tank, however they will grow quickly with the right care. gold fish can get as big as 10-12 inchs long. You have a bit of time before this happens though so there are somethings you can do. You could -

wait for the fish to get to big then take them to a pet store and exchange them for smaller fish.
purchase another tank of the same size and split the fish between them (though I think this is another stopgap method)
Look into getting a larger tank ( I would suggest a 75-90 for the fish you have now at their adult sizes.
Or you could look into building a pond if you have the space. This is often much cheaper than a large tank and there are hundreds of DIY plans on the internet from people who have made them.

I wanted to put a pond in my bedroom but my lady wouldnt let me :confused: :confused: :confused: I just dont get why

Dont worry about the inpulse fish buy...everybody does it! I just bought a neat catfish for my tank!. It all works out though cause hes eating all those darn snails that appeared out of no where.

The algae is not really a health problem for the fish, but the water conditions that create an algae bloom are. The algae feeds off the fish poop and like any other plant uses the light to grow. (the ammonia not the nitrate )

The plants are a long term solution to the algae problem..well if the goldfish dont eat them!. If you can get the plastic ones out and some nice establish live plants in there then once the algae is gone it should not come back.

as to finding the plants and driftwood...Have you looked in any fish stores other than the one you almost bought? There should be a lot in London. Any good store should have a decent selection of plants in there and should have someone who can tell you which are which. (if you are buying the plants you have now with only a little guidence I would be a little worried about buying plants that need something you cant provide..some plants need very very bright lighting or fertilizers..some need to be growing on driftwood some need to float and some need to be in the gravel. I lost alot of plants because I first bought from a big chain over in America called petsmart (dont know if youve heard about it) and I bought 3 plants none of which surivived. Now I only buy from my favorite store where the gentlemen that run it can tell me which plants will thrive in my setup and which will wither and look horrible!. Good stores should carry drift wood too! though it can be horribly expensive. You could just leave it and wipe the glass etc down every once in a while...but the plants will be less work in the long run :)

Now onto your filter question..and i thought you were doing so well! *cry*. Kidding kidding! :) an easy mistake to make when you are unfamiliar with the hobby. I humbly suggest you take the filter you have back to the store and give it back to him and exchange it for a better filter. You dont need to get the best one you can buy but I sincerly recommend you get at least one rating above your tank size. so you have a 15gallon tank get a filter for a 20 or 29 gallon tank. This will provide a much larger filter capacity and run the water through itself much quicker. (filters are rated in gallons per hour, as in how many gallons the filter pumps in an hour. It is usually recommended that the filter can run all the water in your tank through at least 4 or more times per hour). On my 55 gallon I have a aquaclear filter rated for a tank over 100 gallons...I think my filter maybe nearly as big as your tank :D just to give you an idea of what i mean. As to brands, I am not familiar with what is available in England at the moment but good brands to look for are aquaclear, marinetech, penguin and a few others i cant remeber.

about the water changes - the amount of water you change is up to you. For moderatly stocked tanks 20% of the tank a week is generally recommended. For one like yours maybe 50% or so. The important thing is to not take too much out and damage the bacteria in the tank. (also make sure that the water you put in there is at about the same temperature as the water in the tank to avoid stress to the fish.) The water you have should be just fine for the fish but if you are very worried then try and find a fish store with a knowledgeable staff and ask them if they have anything that can take care of limescale (meanwhile I am going to put up a post asking if limescale in the water can hurt fish cause Im not sure myself!) Do you have a gravel vacum to clean the tank with? ( with a lot of plants you dont need to worry about this too much)

Oh about using wood you find from the park..it is usually a bad idea to use items for your aquarium that you are not sure are not contaminated in some way. Anything bad on the item could cause alot of trouble for your fish so i wouldnt use sticks from the park. Any good fish store should have some drift wood (this was just a suggestion it is not necessary you get some btw it is just the best way to get java moss to grow...cause it...er...sticks to stuff. but that stuff would grow in a damp bucket in the back of a cold dark shed so I wouldnt worry about it to much :D

I hope this helps you!

and im glad that i have not scared you off the hobby for good with to much information hehe! dont stop now get this tank good spend a few days looking at it and realize you need more MORRREEEEEEE.

sometimes there are few diffrences between being a drug addict and an Aquarist...thought i think keeping aquariums is more expensice :D ...I still wish she had let me put that pond in the house *sigh*
 
A couple of options. You do need to increase the space for the fish, or problems will result, and water quality will be just one small part. There are several options, however, which may be less costly. An agricultural tank is one option--large hard plastic tubs used for watering stock. They are cheaper than a glass tank, and can be easily setup with a filter and such for fish. You lose the side view, but gain a very good top view, and the fish quickly learn to come to the surface to interact with you (beg for food!). A short term solution may be a tupperware tub of sufficient volume--make sure it has sturdy sides. Don't be limited by the glass box--there are several attractive options. My vet has a large, claw-footed bath tub that is a lovely tank, with a small pond fountain, and some wood sticking up with house plants growing on them.

As for algae--rather than using a pad or cloth for removal, use an old credit card, or similar scraper. This way the algae will peel off and float off for the fish to consume. Attached algae (not green water) is unnattractive, but not a problem for the fish.

Keep in mind that much of the waste from fish is not visible--certainly they do have solid wastes, but of more concern is ammonia--which you can not see.

For filters--different styles serve different purposes. Biological filtration is usually in the form of sponges, bio-balls, noodles, or cloth, with water is forced through. The bacteria colonize these surfaces, and are not readily removed. Mechanical filtration is normally sponges or cloth, and the intent is to capture the solid wastes (and they do biological filtration as well, double duty). Chemical filtration consists of carbon, or the compounds that remove ammonia or nitrites, or phosphates. Not needed in a healthy, well maintained tank. They cease working after a while, and just become another bacteria bed. So, your filter is likely biologically active now, and that's good. Swapping it out will remove some of the bacteria bed, which is not good. Upgrading to a filter that has more turnover of water may help, but only within certain limits. You could spend thousands on a filter, and you'll still need to clean it and change water. So, I would stick with what you have--a bigger tank will be better for the fish in the long run.

More frequent water changes are my best suggestion. As long as your water doesn't contain toxins, the hardness is not a problem. I would change water every 3 days--this will help the fish. In the end though, a larger space for them will be needed to prevent stunting and disease.
 
could you tell me what the GH of your water is please treacle? need it in regards to the limescale question.

bah ok a little bit of research and i understand this a bit better. What it means is you have very hard water! (that means a bit more to me than limescale hehe) this makes the limescale from all the disolved elements.

there are quite a few ways to soften your water. I cant post right now but I will look it up and post more later
 
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Ok i did a little bit of searching about limescale and Gh and this is what i found.

it is kinda technical though but intresting!

this is an article on Gh from thekrib.com a nice resource site on kribensis

here is a link to WetmanNY's site I suggest you bookmark this it has tons of information on the science behind keeping aquariums

Skeptical Aquarist


Do you have a test kit for the aquarium at the moment? If not then take a cupful of your water to a fish store and they should be able to test it for you. Just make sure you get your GH and that will tell us how hard your water is. The harder it is the more limescale it needs. Now i just need to find out what kind of water the goldfish like! :)
 
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