Don't imagine a couple of tabs of acid would help?

[treacle]

Hi folks

Back again to bend your ear with some bothersome queries.

After about two months I have started getting a little algae problem in my tank -@ 15 gal. 3 small fish -panda moor, pearl scale, fantail, & 2 bigger fish - black moor, indeterminate goldfish(veiltail?)

The pet shop suggested I might try a Green Away treatment which recommends that the PH value of the water must be between 6.5 and 8.5 before use.

So I bought a test kit at the same time and having just changed two thirds of the water obviously the nitrate/nitrite value was at an acceptable level but the PH value was worryingly high.

The colour chart with the kit only goes up to 8.5 and it was certainly registering the corresponding colour to that, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was above the 8.5 mark?

Our water has quite a substantial limescale content, which I imagine must be the primary contributing factor and bar the extremely expensive idea of buying gallons of mineral water, or spending days boiling and cooling tap water, I am stumped for any sensible ideas.

I wondered if anyone could offer me some possible solutions to reducing the PH value of the water to a level that will make my fish a little happier with their environment.

I should tell you that I inherited the tank with one of the fish and although I assume the water was changed, it does not appear as though the gravel was cleaned regularly, once a month. Since I believed this might be a contributing factor to the algae problem, I decided to do another two thirds water change/gravel clean, only a week after my second monthly two thirds water change/gravel clean to try and reduce the amount of crap lingering in the gravel.


I have also discovered from the pet shop owner that my five fish are more than is recommended for this size tank which is @ 12" x 24" x15" (only after he flogged four of them to me (':eek:') !!) and as we've become so attached to all of them there is no way I would want to give any back to him (besides they have loads more room to swim around in my tank than the rather crowded ones in the pet shop)

I therefore wondered if I can compensate for the amount of waste produced by the five fish with more frequent or more substantial water changes/gravel cleaning than the procedure recommended by him of 10 per cent water change every week and two thirds on the fourth week.

For example I was wondering if I could keep the nitrate level down to an acceptable amount with a two thirds water change every fortnight? However if this is to be my routine, I guess there will be an even bigger necessity for finding a means of reducing the PH levels resulting from our tap water.

With my utmost thanks in advance as always in the hope that one of this happy band of fish fanciers will take the time and the trouble to respond with some solutions for my somewhat tedious troubles - and there was me when we saved the one fish from its frightful fate before being thrown in the park pond, thinking it would be a doddle, no twice daily walks, just a matter of throwing a bit of fish food in once in a while, little did I know what I was letting myself in for (':)')

TTFN
Bernard

[demon_surfer]

im not sure about the limescale in the water. The algae will grow when there is food in the water and a little light for it to grow. Your goldfish will create alot of food. I find a good way to combat it is to use live plants, these will (hopefully) outcompete the algae for the food and therefore the algae wont grow!

I can attest that this works because in my 55 I had a couple of plants on one side of my tank die out (crappy petsmart *grumblegrumble*) and that side of the tank was immediatly plastered in algae where as the other side that still had healthy plants was bare.

I am not sure what you could put in with the gold fish that they would not eat but a big ball of maybe java fern or java moss might work. They are great beginner plants.

Other than that you will have to bump up your cleaning regime, most people recommend doing a 20% water change each week. Some say a couple of times a week.

[treacle]

Thanks a million Sir Surfer, or can I call you Demon (':)')

It's good you mentioned plants as that was another of my queries I forgot to mention.

The tank came with assorted plastic plants, log and we have added two real plants and some pretty shells

The algae first appeared on our big white shell. After I took it out and scrubbed it clean, the algae next appeared a few days later on the glass and after cleaning this, most recently it has appeared on one of the real plants (but not on anything plastic)

It is only the smoothed leaf plant and not the tiny spiky leaves of the other real plant, so it was pretty easy to wipe off.

(the other wispy spiky leaved plant is my indicator of when the fish need feeding, as once they get hungry they start pulling it apart, I only hope it grows quickly because they tear it out of the metal clip holding it in the gravel and it gets a little shorter each time I reclamp it together)

I was therefore wasn't sure if I should replace the plastic plants with real ones or vice-versa and so I am glad of your advice

Now all I need (for the moment!) is a means by which to reduce the high PH level. Also I wondered if I do more frequent water changes/gravel clean, can I do any damage to their environment.

Say for example I decided to replace two thirds of the water every week, or every fortnight (with 20 per cent between times), can I prevent the necessary good microbes from flourishing as I keep removing them with the waste

Many thanks for all your help once again
TTFN
Bernard

[anonapersona]

First, the pH is fine. Forget about it. Goldfish like hard water and higher pH levesl are not really a problem. If you can drink this water they'll be OK.

The algae treatments you have can be of the sort that make the algae clump together so the filter can remove them or they sink to the bottom. Be aware that these can interfere with the fish gills and smother them. These would be the sort of treatments for green water.

Is this the sort of algae that is on the glass walls of the tank? Your goldfish will consider this quite a treat if you will scrape it off and let it fall to the bottom of the tank. They love algae. In a pond they will spend their entire day picking up gravel and trying to suck the algae off of it.

If you can make peace with this algae it will help you process the nitrates in the tank. Can you leave the algae on the back and perhaps one side of the tank, and keep the other sides clean for viewing? You can, if you have sufficient light, try plants, but be aware that the goldfish love plants for all day snacking and as the plants are shredded they could add to the nitrate problem. A rock of bit of fish-safe driftwood wrapped with java moss would be a good start.

Otherwise you must reduce the fuel for the algae, you have too many fish. 15 gallons is enough for 1 goldfish, two is pushing it. Five is ridiculous. With this many fish you need to be doing massive waterchanges, frequently. And you need massive filtration. A goldfish newsgroup that I read said you should have 15x tank volume per hour. Change enough water often enough to keep your nitrates at 20 or less. You need to know how much nitrate is in the tap water first, though.

[demon_surfer]

i am a little hazy on the conversion from L to gallon so i didnt want to comment but anona is right. Goldfish get HUGE, and i do mean huge. Ive seen some that look like an over stuff softball with fins glued on. Im sure you have noticed how much they...er...crap. :D

If you are not looking to get a bigger tank i suggest you pick out 1 or 2 of your favorites and take back the rest..This will make your job of keeping the algae easier too because it will have less food. I know taking fish back is not something most fish keepers want to here but it really is best for the fish here.

to the plants again anonas suggestion of drift wood liberally wrapped with java moss would be a good start. Another good way to go would buy a huge clump of java fern and spread it around the tank. Either should grow like crazy. Hopefully fast enough to avoid being eaten! :) I would experiment with cheaper plants before you go for anything expensive or you could just be giving them an expensive snack :)

hth

ps you can call me whatever yah want lol :D

[treacle]

Oh my gawd, you've got me feeling like Fagin now, locking all my little chil'len into such a small place (':)')

I guess the fact that three of the five fish are merely an inch to an inch and a half long - @2.5cms for the benefit of our more modern metric pals (pearl scale is just like a tiny ballon, fantail and my favourite the panda moor) and the other two are four inches (veiltail? and greedy black moor) would not make you reappraise your opinion that I should either loose some fish or get a bigger tank?

There should be just four because I got the black Moor as company for the fish we adopted and then two small fish. However when my missus found our first panda Moor floating on the surface during the heatwave we had in London a few weeks back, she was really blubbing when she called me to give me the bad news.

The goggle-eyed little fella was everybodies favourite and Ro was so distressed when he disappeared to the great goldfish pond in the sky that I went to try and replace him. However since there were no more panda Moors, I thought the Pearl Scale might make her smile because he/she is so incredibly odd looking (and was about the tiniest coldwater fish in the shop)

Although I shouldn't have got this one because I kept pestering the pet shop geezer to get some more panda Moors and when these eventually came in a few weeks later there was no way I was going to be able to walk in there every couple of days for dog/cat grub without coming home eventually with one of these odd looking bug-eyed little buggers

I managed to resist at first but then the next morning I walked in to the shop (as we were toying with the idea of actually buying the gaff until he revealed today that he's had a substantial offer which I can't afford to match) and someone had bought the one I'd picked as my favourite (almost entirely white one) and my resistance immediately collapsed and I collared an almost exact replica of our last panda.

The sentimental old gits that we are, we've become so attached to them all that there is no way I could give any of them back to the shop. What's more they wouldn't be any better off there because his stock of fish does not always sell particularly quickly and as a result they might be stuck for months in tanks that are dreadfully overfilled by all acounts and certainly a lot more crowded than mine.

So I guess it is either a bigger tank, or another tank which are my only options. Although at this precise moment I don't think I can afford an entire additional set-up. As I've mentioned, we only have this tank because when we saved the first fish from an unthinkable fate in the pond in the park I was asking the bloke carrying it how big a tank I would need and he said that if I drove around to them now, I could pick up the one that they were about to throw out.

In the meantime (assuming I have managed to retain anyone's attention this far) I would be extremely grateful for some assistance in clarifying a couple of things for the benefit of my humble efforts to keep the fish happy.

I am not really too bothered about the algae as far as viewing is concerned. It was more that I was worried it might be bad for the fish. At the moment it seems that the Green Away treatment has had no/little effect and that no sooner have I cleaned it off the glass, a shell, or a plant than it migrates elsewhere.

I changed two/thirds of the water on Saturday and cleaned the algae off one of the live plants and today I see that it has settled anew on one of the plastic plants (it appears to prefer smooth surfaces). So in your much valued opinion should I leave the algae to continue developing? I don't think it would fall off onto the gravel if I wiped it in the tank, but would just end up on the cloth I used. Also is the algae certain evidence that the nitrate level is high as from what I've read or heard, light seems like it plays a part in promoting the growth?

And assuming I leave the algae to develop to help deal with nitrate, what point does it become a problem (ie. can there be too much algae)

After reading your post today I ran out and bought three plants to replace plastic ones in the tank that I inherited. When we got the tank the one additional thing I needed to spend some money on was the filter. However being such a skint cheapskate, I went for the least expensive one in the shop (Interpet IPF1 Duo). Obviously I now appreciate that this was a false economy (cheap is cheap (':mad:')) and I guess I will need to get a more powerful one. But I wonder how much of a difference it will make. That is to say I think it was the next one up which was the filter recommended for my size tank but I want to know if it would be of considerable benefit to my fish if I went for the most powerful (and priciest) filter I can afford?

One of the reasons I am minded to ask about the filter is that despite the ridiculous number of fish in my tank, apart from the first week of using the filter (where the gravel in the bottom came with the tank which had obviously never had a filter working previously!) when there was a lot to come off when I cleaned the sponge, every week since the amount of waste in the sponge appears to have gone down to the point where the past couple of weeks it has hardly seemed worth cleaning because there has been so little on it?

With regard to the water change regimen I adopt, considering that I am the dunderhead who decided to do the decathlon before I could walk, by buying three fish too many, it might be loads of aggro but I am quite prepared to do a two-thirds water change/gravel clean every week, if that is what it takes to prevent my missus suffering a repeat of the trauma she experienced with the passing of our first panda Moor

The pet shop chap told me that the little Moors are prone to "giving up" very easily and these were extreme circumstances. He was also in something of a flap at the time himself as his fish were apparently "dropping like flies" in the unusually warm weather. Almost every time I went in there they were busy replenishing their tanks with cool tap water to try and keep the temperatures in them down (and no doubt save his stock!)

My biggest concern with adding two-thirds of our horrible tap water (it is drinkable but we all avoid doing so, unless boiled in tea because it is obvious from the residue in the kettle and the stains on the sink that there are vast quantities of limescale in this very hard water - whenever we go away from London we are both always very aware of the change in water and in most cases spend half an hour trying to wash the soap off our hands because the soft water leaves you with the impression that they remain soapy!) every week is that my tank will never get a chance to develop a decent environment for the fish (ie. I'm afraid I will throwing out all the good microbe babies with the bath water)

Finally (phew! - although I am sure I'll think of a hundred other queries the moment I make with the 'submit' button (':)') ), I note your suggestion for a "rock of bit of fish-safe driftwood wrapped with java moss" and my other friendly forum mate's mentionj of "java fern". Is this something I would have to find myself, or am I likely to find it in a decent pet-shop here in London? I drew a complete blank in my local gaff, but then he's not exactly the brightest button on the shirtfront (although saying that, he has just screwed some gullible mug for many grands worth of moolah for a shop that between you me and the fence post, wasn't worth a penny, especially as the past few months he's been so disinterested in it that we've been lucky if he's bothered opening every day at all, let alone from 3.30pm - 6pm as stated on the door!)

The only java I know if is the coffee and the computer language (and I ain't particularly familiar with either of these). I haven't the foggiest about the fern or the moss (although one of the plants I bought which the fish love pulling apart looks like a fern of some sort). And you don't often find much driftwood here in London. I suppose that's why my tank had a plastic type imitation jobby in it (which sounded like it was about to melt when I poured boiling water on it to clean it originally). So what makes driftwood 'fish-safe' and do pet shops usually sell bits of it. Treacle our staff/mastiff cross is very good at finding wood in the park, but it only drifts when I throw it in the pond for her and she invariably ends up eating it (':)')

Anyway I will be pleasantly surprised if anyone actually has nothing better to do than read this rambling missive but if you have, I would be extremely grateful for your continued patience in lending me the benefit of the sort of experience that is far more reassuring than the pet shop owner who is not such a bad bloke, but in the absence of any certain answers to my queries, he might just be happy encouraging me buy another bottle of chemicals of some sort!!

Thanks a million for taking the trouble to get back to me

TTFN
Bernard

[demon_surfer]

I have nothing better to do...arnt you happy? :D

ok i hope i can remeber all your questions..lets start at the top

about the number of fish -
Your right at the moment they are fine in the tank, however they will grow quickly with the right care. gold fish can get as big as 10-12 inchs long. You have a bit of time before this happens though so there are somethings you can do. You could -

wait for the fish to get to big then take them to a pet store and exchange them for smaller fish.
purchase another tank of the same size and split the fish between them (though I think this is another stopgap method)
Look into getting a larger tank ( I would suggest a 75-90 for the fish you have now at their adult sizes.
Or you could look into building a pond if you have the space. This is often much cheaper than a large tank and there are hundreds of DIY plans on the internet from people who have made them.

I wanted to put a pond in my bedroom but my lady wouldnt let me :confused: :confused: :confused: I just dont get why

Dont worry about the inpulse fish buy...everybody does it! I just bought a neat catfish for my tank!. It all works out though cause hes eating all those darn snails that appeared out of no where.

The algae is not really a health problem for the fish, but the water conditions that create an algae bloom are. The algae feeds off the fish poop and like any other plant uses the light to grow. (the ammonia not the nitrate )

The plants are a long term solution to the algae problem..well if the goldfish dont eat them!. If you can get the plastic ones out and some nice establish live plants in there then once the algae is gone it should not come back.

as to finding the plants and driftwood...Have you looked in any fish stores other than the one you almost bought? There should be a lot in London. Any good store should have a decent selection of plants in there and should have someone who can tell you which are which. (if you are buying the plants you have now with only a little guidence I would be a little worried about buying plants that need something you cant provide..some plants need very very bright lighting or fertilizers..some need to be growing on driftwood some need to float and some need to be in the gravel. I lost alot of plants because I first bought from a big chain over in America called petsmart (dont know if youve heard about it) and I bought 3 plants none of which surivived. Now I only buy from my favorite store where the gentlemen that run it can tell me which plants will thrive in my setup and which will wither and look horrible!. Good stores should carry drift wood too! though it can be horribly expensive. You could just leave it and wipe the glass etc down every once in a while...but the plants will be less work in the long run :)

Now onto your filter question..and i thought you were doing so well! *cry*. Kidding kidding! :) an easy mistake to make when you are unfamiliar with the hobby. I humbly suggest you take the filter you have back to the store and give it back to him and exchange it for a better filter. You dont need to get the best one you can buy but I sincerly recommend you get at least one rating above your tank size. so you have a 15gallon tank get a filter for a 20 or 29 gallon tank. This will provide a much larger filter capacity and run the water through itself much quicker. (filters are rated in gallons per hour, as in how many gallons the filter pumps in an hour. It is usually recommended that the filter can run all the water in your tank through at least 4 or more times per hour). On my 55 gallon I have a aquaclear filter rated for a tank over 100 gallons...I think my filter maybe nearly as big as your tank :D just to give you an idea of what i mean. As to brands, I am not familiar with what is available in England at the moment but good brands to look for are aquaclear, marinetech, penguin and a few others i cant remeber.

about the water changes - the amount of water you change is up to you. For moderatly stocked tanks 20% of the tank a week is generally recommended. For one like yours maybe 50% or so. The important thing is to not take too much out and damage the bacteria in the tank. (also make sure that the water you put in there is at about the same temperature as the water in the tank to avoid stress to the fish.) The water you have should be just fine for the fish but if you are very worried then try and find a fish store with a knowledgeable staff and ask them if they have anything that can take care of limescale (meanwhile I am going to put up a post asking if limescale in the water can hurt fish cause Im not sure myself!) Do you have a gravel vacum to clean the tank with? ( with a lot of plants you dont need to worry about this too much)

Oh about using wood you find from the park..it is usually a bad idea to use items for your aquarium that you are not sure are not contaminated in some way. Anything bad on the item could cause alot of trouble for your fish so i wouldnt use sticks from the park. Any good fish store should have some drift wood (this was just a suggestion it is not necessary you get some btw it is just the best way to get java moss to grow...cause it...er...sticks to stuff. but that stuff would grow in a damp bucket in the back of a cold dark shed so I wouldnt worry about it to much :D

I hope this helps you!

and im glad that i have not scared you off the hobby for good with to much information hehe! dont stop now get this tank good spend a few days looking at it and realize you need more MORRREEEEEEE.

sometimes there are few diffrences between being a drug addict and an Aquarist...thought i think keeping aquariums is more expensice :D ...I still wish she had let me put that pond in the house *sigh*

[OrionGirl]

A couple of options. You do need to increase the space for the fish, or problems will result, and water quality will be just one small part. There are several options, however, which may be less costly. An agricultural tank is one option--large hard plastic tubs used for watering stock. They are cheaper than a glass tank, and can be easily setup with a filter and such for fish. You lose the side view, but gain a very good top view, and the fish quickly learn to come to the surface to interact with you (beg for food!). A short term solution may be a tupperware tub of sufficient volume--make sure it has sturdy sides. Don't be limited by the glass box--there are several attractive options. My vet has a large, claw-footed bath tub that is a lovely tank, with a small pond fountain, and some wood sticking up with house plants growing on them.

As for algae--rather than using a pad or cloth for removal, use an old credit card, or similar scraper. This way the algae will peel off and float off for the fish to consume. Attached algae (not green water) is unnattractive, but not a problem for the fish.

Keep in mind that much of the waste from fish is not visible--certainly they do have solid wastes, but of more concern is ammonia--which you can not see.

For filters--different styles serve different purposes. Biological filtration is usually in the form of sponges, bio-balls, noodles, or cloth, with water is forced through. The bacteria colonize these surfaces, and are not readily removed. Mechanical filtration is normally sponges or cloth, and the intent is to capture the solid wastes (and they do biological filtration as well, double duty). Chemical filtration consists of carbon, or the compounds that remove ammonia or nitrites, or phosphates. Not needed in a healthy, well maintained tank. They cease working after a while, and just become another bacteria bed. So, your filter is likely biologically active now, and that's good. Swapping it out will remove some of the bacteria bed, which is not good. Upgrading to a filter that has more turnover of water may help, but only within certain limits. You could spend thousands on a filter, and you'll still need to clean it and change water. So, I would stick with what you have--a bigger tank will be better for the fish in the long run.

More frequent water changes are my best suggestion. As long as your water doesn't contain toxins, the hardness is not a problem. I would change water every 3 days--this will help the fish. In the end though, a larger space for them will be needed to prevent stunting and disease.

[demon_surfer]

could you tell me what the GH of your water is please treacle? need it in regards to the limescale question.

bah ok a little bit of research and i understand this a bit better. What it means is you have very hard water! (that means a bit more to me than limescale hehe) this makes the limescale from all the disolved elements.

there are quite a few ways to soften your water. I cant post right now but I will look it up and post more later

[demon_surfer]

Ok i did a little bit of searching about limescale and Gh and this is what i found.

it is kinda technical though but intresting!

this is an article on Gh from thekrib.com a nice resource site on kribensis (http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html)

here is a link to WetmanNY's site I suggest you bookmark this it has tons of information on the science behind keeping aquariums

Skeptical Aquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/)


Do you have a test kit for the aquarium at the moment? If not then take a cupful of your water to a fish store and they should be able to test it for you. Just make sure you get your GH and that will tell us how hard your water is. The harder it is the more limescale it needs. Now i just need to find out what kind of water the goldfish like! :)

[OrionGirl]

Please re-read the posts you've made so far. Everyone has offered valuable advice, and it doesn't seem that it's being followed. This is part of the problem.

[demon_surfer]

ok as far as i can see the water hardness does not effect the goldfish to much. They are very tough little food bags!

but here are a couple of sites with a plethora of articles on goldfish for you to take a look at!

aquaarticles.com (http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/ponds/#Goldfish)

and

goldfishinfo.com (http://www.goldfishinfo.com/water.htm)

I hope this helps, please keep us posted and ask any more questions you have! :)

[demon_surfer]

Give the fella a chance OG he has been amiable so far Im sure he is listening hard and is doing what he can

[treacle]

Thanks a million folks for your very welcome advice and honest OG I am not ignoring a word of it, it is just the suggestions about bigger tanks and losing fish which are hard for me to accomdate right now

Sadly I have to report that my problems appear as though they are about to be rediced by 1/5, as the Panda Moor looks very poorly

After reading about the potential horrible side affects of that Green Away treatment to their gills, I am wondering whether that is the cause of his/her poor health - his/her dorsal is drooping and he/she just lingers at the bottom of the tank, not reacting when I feed them

So the only thing I could think of doing, since the treatment was done on Saturday after I did the four weekly water change/gravel clean, was to do another large water change to try and reduce any remaining levels of this treatment in the tank

I did not clean the gravel because I wanted to cause as little disturbance as possible to try and avoid stressing the little fella/girl but just removed and replaced about 60 per cent of the water

The treatment seemed to effect the other fish as well as they seemed far more lethargic than usual these past couple of days and they have all perked up since the change of water

As I am now sitting vigil here, afraid of going to bed for fear of waking up and finding the Panda Moor floating on the surface (and all the guilt that it might have been my fault for worrying about algae that I didn't really need to panic over)

I am certain the problem with the little Moor is not down to the number of fish in the tank because they arrived in the pet shop last Wednesday and there are still quite a few in there in a tank that is far more crowded than mine

I also wondered whether perhaps it is just that the Moor hasn't been able to cope with the change of environment twice in such a short space of time (ie. to the pet shop and then to me)

If anyone has any other suggestions I can try to help revive the bug-eyed little chap I would be most grateful as I absolutely dread having to tell the missus if the worst should happen

With this being our second attempt at keeping one of these cute little creatures, she has said that if this one does not survive, we are definitely not getting another because it is too distressing

Once again my utmost thanks for ALL your assistance to date and if you have any remedies I can try they would be most welcome

I shall indeed keep you all up to date with any progress - heavens as was about to post this, I saw the Panda floating to the surface, holding my breath as I prayed he/she hadn't passed away, only to breath a sigh of relief as the fish reached the flow of the filter and suddenly perked up, but it is not looking very hopeful I am mortified to report (':mad:')

[treacle]

Sorry one thin I forgot to ask, what is GH?

The Tank Check kit I got was a single use one with two strips, one for measuring the PH and the other for measuring Nitrate/Nitrite

I did it on Saturday after the water change because the (blasted) Green Away treatment stated that the PH should be between 6.5-8.5 and so I wanted to check before I did it

The PH colour chart only went up to 8.5 and it was definitely reading that (I don't know if that meant it could have been higher?) As far as the Nitrate/Nitrite reading, since I just changed two/thirds of the water and cleaned the gravel, this was reading only the second colours from the chart which I believe is 0.5 for Nitrite and 10 for Nitrate

I am now off to check out the URLs recommended to see if I can suss out what GH is?

TTFN
Bernard

[demon_surfer]

Im sorry but I cant give you any suggestions for your Moor! I hope he pulls through.

for GH i mean general hardness, it is the measurements of disolved minerals in the water. You should be able to get a test kit that tests for it.

[treacle]

Thanks Demon

I read the page about GH that you mentioned (although much of it went way above my head, but then it wouldn't need to be to high-brow to do that!) and I will try and suss out a kit to test the water

I know our water around here is particularly hard, only because we always notice how much softer the water is whenever we go elsewhere and the limescale is evident in the kettle and on the stains on the sinks if you don't wipe the water off

But it doesn't appear to be harming the other four fish, so far! I can't help but wonder whether this might be the problem with the Moor, I will have to find out where it came from originally because if it was out of London, it is likely that it might be used to a much softer water

Although I have my doubts whether the poor panda is going to last the night. It is strange because the larger black Moor seems to be as hardy as anything and nowhere near as delicate as the little relation?

Will get back to you ASAP, until then
thanks again and TTFN
Bernard

[demon_surfer]

you could well be on to something there.
thought my reading showed that gold fish are very tough if it was razed in soft water then dumped suddenly into very hard water that can have a negative effect.

please keep us posted!

[OrionGirl]

You were advised early on not to add any more fish beyond the original rescue and the first addition...

Increased water changes to control nitrates was suggested, but it sounds as if that's still at once a week...

That goldfish prefer hard water was mentioned quite early in this thread...


Making comparisons between home tanks and store setups is seldom valid. Most stores (possibly not your local one, but most) have a high turnover of water--a huge volume goes through each tank hourly. This allows more fish to be kept in a tank than we can manage in our home tanks, since we don't nomrally do 100-500% water changes daily.

I do apologize if this sounds harsh. That was not my intention. However, the problems you're having are related to the number of large waste producing fish in a small volume of water. While I understand the appeal of fish (certainly!), wanting more should not over rule being able to care for them properly.

[treacle]

Sadly I have to report that despite staying up all night on Thursday, in the vain belief that my Panda Moor wouldn't expire whilst I remained with it and because I was scared to go to bed for fear that I (or worse my missus) would wake up to find it floating on the surface, after lasting the entire night the poor thing finally gave up the ghost at 7am

I was straight round the pet shop when it opened and coughed up forty quid for another filter which is an Interpet IPF3. Since this probably means nothing to you folks, as recommended it is one above the model suggested for my size tank and according to the literature, on the fast setting its flow range is 650 l/hr or 143 gal/hr and on the slower setting it is 400 l/hr or 88 gal/hr.

The literature that came with it suggest that I run new and old (IPF1) in tandem for eight weeks until the sponge in the new one becomes effective. However the new filter is obviously somewhat more powerful than is needed and even on the slow setting, with both running, there is something of a torrent in my tank and I am concerned for the fish.

There are a couple of spots for them to 'hide' but I've had a sudden break out of white spot and I am concerned it is the sudden stress of them having to work so had to stay still which has cause it?

When they go to sleep (are they sleeping when they appear to be at rest?) the two bigger fish (4") are tending to lie right on top of one another in the gap between the tube (with the breathing stone in it) and the glass, as I assume the tube prevents the current pulling them back towards the filter.

One of the tiny fish (Fantail) has found refuge under this big shell, but the little over inflated bubble which is our Pearl Scale appears to spend the night directly underneath the inlet at the bottom of the new filter and this morning he/she has this bright red blotch on the back to the rear which if it was on a human, would be described as a heamatoma (sp?)

I am therefore worried about leaving both filters running for eight weeks because I am afraid that while the water might be healthier, all my four fish will die of the equivalent of a heart attack from all the exercise and I wondered if you have any advice or reassurance.

Also I wondered if you could describe what Java Fern looks like, as out of sympathy and I guess because I am such a big spender (!!) the pet shop geezer gave me a couple of tatty old remains of a couple of plants which he claims to be the real mccoy and I wondered if he is correct?

I have to admit that although I would have undoubtedly received another reprimand from my good pal OG, I was sorely tempted to take the pet shop owner up on his offer of replacing the Panda Moor for free and despite my fear of your disapprobation, it was probably only that neither of the two remaining Panda Moors looke particularly healthy that I refused his offer.

In all honesty I had gone round to the pet shop so early, with the thought in my head that I would give it one third and final attempt to keep one of these oh so appealing little fishes and I was hoping that he'd still have the one which was almost identical to the one which had passed away, so that I might get home and have it in the tank before my missus even noticed.

I am such a bad liar that I am certain I wouldn't have been capable of keeping up the pretence but this was my intention!

However OG will be glad to hear that of the two Panda's remaining, neither looked like ours and one had a very foggy eye and the other had a rather droopy dorsal. So you'll be glad that although it wasn't for the right reasons, the number of fish will remain at four (two one inch, two four inch)

I've put a White Spot Plus treatment in the tank which is to be repeated in four days and have removed the carbon media in both filters. However you will also have to forgive me Demonn because I will have to find a better stocked Pet Shop to obtain a more comprehensive water test kit as I cannot get one at any of the three small pet shops locally

Once again I would be most grateful for the benefit of your experience with regard to any advice about my filters and their effect on the fish and I sincerely hope I am not asking anyone to repeat the any advice I've received already but neglected to absorb in my over filled little brain

TTFN
Bernard

[OrionGirl]

Well, leaving sick fish at the store is right, so you get partial credit. Also, adding fish to a tank that seems to be having illness should be avoided--the new fish will probably get sick as well. I'm not angry with you, it's just frustrating to give advice, and then try to solve the problems that result from said advice not being followed.

If possible, try transferring the media from the smaller filter to the larger one. This is possible with many filters, and would preserve the bacteria beds without creating such strong flow for the fish. While regular goldfish are strong swimmers, the fancies are prone to struggling in strong flows. This can cause stress, which would allow a sub-clinical infection to reach clinical levels.

For treating ich, I beleive most goldfish keepers advise using elevated temperatures and salt. Raising the temp by 10%, and adding salt at the rate of 1 tablespoon per hour (mix it in a glass of water first--do not add the crystal salt straight to the tank) until you have 1 tablespoon per gallon of water should help. You will need to maintain this level for at least 4 weeks after the last visible symptom. Clean the substrate of the tank every other day, and add the appropriate amount of salt to replacement water. Once treatment is complete, lower the temp gradually and stop adding salt to the replacement water.

Here is a picture and description of java moss: http://www.aquaticplantdepot.com/javmosvesdub.html

[treacle]

Thanks a million OG for taking the trouble to get back to this pig-headed fish fancier who appears prone to treating his goldfish like sardines for his own sadistic pleasure - dunno about sprat to catch a mackerel but it certainly takes a pratt to catch a dose of white spot :-)

Appreciate the link to the Java Moss which it definitely ain't but it could be Java Fern although it is difficult to tell from the pics.

I only hope you won't regret responding as I continue to drive you all potty with my questions, questions and more questions.

I assure you that I am not just being lazy (despite the fact that if it was a competitive sport, I could laze for England!), as I've tried searching for answers and although I've come across plenty of sites with good general advice, I am struggling to find specific answers to my individual queries.

To the point (in my typically longwinded fashion), I have started adding salt but I wanted to confirm that the Sodium Chloride wouldn't have a weird reaction with the White Spot Plus Treatment (Interpet)

With regard to the temperature of the water, I haven't the foggiest how to go about raising it without a dedicated water heater. I could add warm water from the kettle (after boiling) but although it would be great to have nothing else to do but sit here and take care of the sick goldfish all day, it is not really practical to keep adding warm water continuously to maintain the higher temperature

Currently my tank appears to be at room temp. of 97.8F or 36.5C and I would therefore appreciate any suggestions as to how I might raise the temp the advised 10% and keep it there.

Also I assume that with the addition of salt, it would be a good idea to remove all the real plants, as I don't imagine any of them will survive in salty water for very long

Finally (the word which invariably inspires a hundred more queries I will have forgotten until now), I would appreciate any explanation of th following, if goldfish do so well in salt water, why don't they live in the sea instead of fresh water? Which also begs the question, is there a point of salt concentration, or time spent in salty water, where the fish will no longer tolerate the conditions

Dooubtless I could spend all day driving you mad with my various different dilemmas but you will be grateful to hear that with gravel to clean and water to change, I had better get on with it

TTFN
Bernard

[demon_surfer]

salinty (or amount of salt in to water) is another hole kettle of fish and i wouldnt get in to it till we get this problem solved! suffice to say that there it is pretty much a given that there is a small amount of salt in most every lake/river etc. I am not one hundred percent but I would say your plants will have no problem in the water as long as you stay at the dosage OG prescribed.

As OG said raising the temperature and adding salt is a widely recommended treatment for ich. As you thought an aquarium heater is needed to alter and maintain the temperature of the tank. I have one in each of my tanks, but my fish are all tropicals and are not as tolerant of the diffrent temperatures as goldfish.

Im not sure what to tell you about raising the temperature, I know it does help the fish beat the illness. Hopefully OG can give you better info on if salt alone would work.

Good work resisting temptation to get that panda! you did the right thing need to get this problem beat not add to it.

HTH and keep us posted

[OrionGirl]

The advice to raise the temp was based on the assumption that the tank was closer to the low to mid 70's (23-27C) If it's already that warm, you do not want it any warmer!

Salt alone is a fine treatment for ich. The parasite can not stand the salt, and it will be killed during it's tomite stage. This is the only time when it can be killed--both the cyst and the internal stage are protected from both medications and salt.

We'll keep trying if you will! ;)

[demon_surfer]

yeah lets get this beat and you hoplessly addicted to aquariums..


one of us..one of us...one of us...one of us.....*COUGH*

sorry er...slipped there. yeah so er........



update us will yah :D

[treacle]

Hi folks

Well I am amazed. After waking up on Friday. I was horrified to find that the fish were absolutely covered in White Spot. (well the two salmony coloured ones and the orange Pearl Scale but either the big Black Moor wasn't affected or the White Spot wasn't visible on his/her scales and fins). In my panic I treated the tank with the Interpet White Spot Plus treatment (having removed the containers of carbon in the two filters that I now have running) without thinking to change the water first.

The treatment recommends a second dose after four days. However the following day, I couldn't bear the thought that I could see the White Spot floating in the water. I therefore did a 66% water change and then retreated the tank with the meds. I also removed all the live plants because I wasn't sure they would tolerate the salt that I began adding following OG's advice and treated them in a bucket with a small amount of the White Spot treatment. I also did my best to keep the temperature in the tank as warm as possible (without a water heater) by disolving the salt in hot water and diluting it with cold, so that it was fairly warm when added to the tank quite frequently

The Pearl Scale seemed to benefit most from the salt as almost immediately the big red type heamatoma on it back began to reduce and eventually disappeared completely by yesterday morning and by yesterday evening I was flabbergasted to find that the White Spot infestation on the fish had also disappeared! (':)')

Perhaps I missed my vocation?

As much as I am reluctant about the constant use of chemicals, I think I will follow the advice to repeat the dose of White Spot treatment this evening when I do a water change, to make sure I have got rid of it completely and I guess I will then return the plants to the tank, as it must be fairly boring for the poor fish at the moment (not to mention missing their all day munch!)

However I am wondering whether it might be a good idea if I continue adding a small amount of salt, as it seems to be very good for their overall health and I therefore wondered how much I should use in the tank on a permanent basis

Also I have just noticed that the fish we adopted initially which I think must be a Veiltail because of its long gossamer like (positively beautiful) tail fin, seems to be suffering from its gorgeous tail fin beginning to fray quite badly (':confused:')

I wondered whether this might be a reaction to the chemicals in the White Spot treatment but most importantly is there anything I can do to both prevent it getting any worse and hopefully repair it?

Thanks a million for all your help and support. I am certain I would have torn what remains of my hair out to the point of total baldness, if I didn't have you folks to turn to for some much needed support.

My gawd, if its not one thing, it is another. Who would have thought fish keeping could become a full time job. Yet if there is any doubting my addiction to my new hobby, having come to it in such weird circumstances, I have to tell you that my only other distraction is football (or soccer for you phillistines from across the pond)

A collection of the weekly diary pieces which I write for an Irish daily paper about my addiction to 'the beautiful game' are featured in a book published last year. We live around the corner to the Arsenal football club and follow them all over Britain and Europe and when my fish fancying begins to impinge on my footie, you know it is serious (';)')

The missus and I pay over three grand a season for our season tickets (over 60 quid a game, more than a seat at the bleedin' theatre and that's just the home games!!) and since it is only a few minutes walk from our flat, people around us are always taking the micky about my tardiness. However on Saturday, for the first time in decades, I actually had a valid excuse for turning up a few minutes late because I was tending to my new pets (';)')

Once again I very much appreciate all your patience in taking the trouble to respond to my pesky queries. We only live in a tiny flat, which is hardly big enough for the two of us, Liffey our ancient tabby cat, Treacle an oversized, energetic two year old Staff/Neapolitan Mastiff/American bulldog pup and now our aquarium containing our four fishes (accordingly sadly a pond is out of the question Demon, even on our 10' x 3' balcony!!) . So having to step over the three big buckets which have been in almost constant use for changing water/gravel cleaning and which certainly aren't worth putting away, is hardy the ideal situation

It would therefore be great to get some reassurance that there might eventually come a day when I can enjoy my fish without the incessant worry over their health and without having to change the water every couple of days as a result!

Over here we traditionally have touring funfairs (very tame and old-fashioned entertainment by US standards) which appear in parks and various open spaces in London on Bank Holidays (eg. Publilc holidays like May day, Easter, when everyone gets a long weekend with no work on Monday. It's always been de rigeur to win the kids a goldfish which are hung enticingly in small transparent bags around fairly unchallenging stalls, like the hoop-la, or darts stall.

As a kid we always used to joke that the fish were specifically bred so that they would only last from one Bank Holiday to the next because I don't think we ever had one that lasted any longer than this. Since we've had our fish, I keep coming across folks with two, three and even four little goldfish which have invariably been won at fairs and which are kept in relatively tiny bowls, with no accoutrements like filters etc, no decorations. They rarely feed them, hardly ever change the murky water but still the fish seem to live forever?

Yesterday I was asking one of these people how often they change the water in their bowl and he said not very often at all, they add something to the water instead of changing it? Also another friend of mine has had his fish for donkey's years and they go on holiday sometimes for three weeks at a time and the fish is still fine when they get back. I have been forced to stop going to one of our local kebab shops at night, despite the fact they have the tastiest chillie sauce, because they have four fish on the counter in a tank (@8 gallons) less than half the size of mine. After the stick I took about the number of fish I have, I can't keep my mouth shut in there and although they wouldn't be interested, I am tempted to phone the RSPCA (':)')

None of these people have spent forty quid on a filter and more money on medication, plants and all sorts of other stuff. I find myself embarrassed to tell them the sort of effort I've expended since we started with our fish when they all seem to do absolutely nothing by comparison and yet there fishes seem to cope?

Then there is the local chipper (fish and chip restaurant) where they've had a tank for many years with an enormous fish in it. The tank is pretty big but so narrow, that the poor fish hasn't been able to turn around for years!

Compared to these examples my fish have the life of Riley, with loads of room to swim around in and since I cannot entertain the idea of a bigger tank (both in terms of somewhere to put it and the spondulicks needed to set it up), I have decided that it is not that I have too small a tank, the problem is that I am too curious (':)')

TTFN
Bernard

[OrionGirl]

Can people keep fish in sub-standard conditions and have them survive? Certainly--especially with very hardy fish. However, the sub-tropical goldies are not the hardiest of fish, and providing them with adequate care is the least we as keepers can do. There are very few people here who have had fish for any length of time that do not re-count childhood fish tanks with a certain amount of horror--myself included. I recall a 10 gallon tank that was divided in half with a glass plate. We had sailf fin mollies, angels, kuhli loaches, no less than 3 sharks (an albino, a redtail, and a rainbow) in addition to a rapheal catfish. Not suitable conditions, too small a tank, no clue water the pH, GH and KH were, the water was not changed regularly, and we had never even heard of cycling or testing. I'm not proud of this, but it happened. Certainly does not mean it was right--and the fact that only the cat and the redtail shark lived more than about 2 years shows how inadequate of fish keepers we were.

Glad to hear the white spot is clearing up. Continue monitoring and treating, as the parasite has a life cyce of about 3-4 weeks, depending on temperature.

Salt is often used as a tonic for goldfish. How needful this is I can't say; I am not the best resource for goldfish--TJCanada, or koivet.com would be a better resource.

[demon_surfer]

Thats great that youve finally got it beat!. well almost! but not to worry the tank will settle eventually and then you can cut back on the work a little. I find I enjoy working on my tanks though...my angelfish come right up and watch what im doing from a cm away! :)

Like OG said keep an eye on the tank, and it may we be an idea to keep adding the salt when you do water changes but the sources she quoted would give you better info on that than we could. wetmans site will give you some info on it too (I gave you the address before when we were talking about the limescale)

for the slightly ragged fins of the veil tail. It might just be that they have grown that way, or it might be that one of the other goldfish are nipping its fins. the fancys do have a little bit of trouble with that.

its been a while since ive heard someone call football footbal! ive been in america to long :D

As to people keeping fish in the wrong condition. I was in a chinese resturant over here and they had a big tank, maybe a 75 or 90 gallon? they had this thing PACKED with about 8 HUGE goldfish and pond comets (diffrent shaped goldfish) I mean these things were almost as big as the novelty tiny basketballs you can get occasionally. The tank was a neon green with algae in the water. and all they had done to take care of it was through in about 10 plecos. I mean they had it in direct sunlight.....I spent my whole dinner trying to work up the courage to go and ask the guy if i could sort out their tank for them. I mean even if they just closed the curtain behind it, it would have been much diffrent. I finally managed to talk to one of the guys and he didnt speak english...or pretended not too. very very frustrating!