Marine Discussion: 90g FOWLR (first SW tank) journal

[Mahlhavoc]

My wife was set on a 55g, though I successfully lobbied for a 75, and was able to up that to a 90 since it didn't take up any additional space

Oh! Thats gonna cost ya! Not to mention the initial costs ;)

Looks nice, just be patient my friend, your on the right track. Gonna be just fish only?

Looks like you've done your homework, glad to have ya aboard.

[DansMarineTank]

Good luck setting that up all looks great! and a merry christmas

[mogurnda]

Very nice job! I am enjoying the description of methodically assembling a tank. Gives a good idea of how long the process is when you do it right.


was (and still am) a little nervous about the drain and return pipes in the overflow box... as per the instructions, they're just stuck into the bulkheads, and are not glued in place. Has anyone ever had a problem arise from this? If one of these pipes became dislodged, I assume that the approximately 3 gallons present in the overflow box would be able to freely drain down to the sump. That's right. So far, my drain and return have never come out on their own, but I suppose it could happen.

I hate to suggest it, but you might think about lowering the level of your baffles. I didn't notice whether the skimmer was running during your power-off test, but that will add a few more gallons to the sump as well.

You might be able to deal with the bubbles from the fuge by slipping a piece of 2" PVC pipe over the fuge drain pipe in the return section. It would act as a simple bubble trap. Another possibility is to use a tee rather than an elbow on the 90 degree turn of the drain. It may allow more air to escape and reduce the problem.

[macphoto]

That's right. So far, my drain and return have never come out on their own, but I suppose it could happen.
When I drain the tank, I'll make extra-sure that the pipes are firmly fitted into the bulkheads.


I hate to suggest it, but you might think about lowering the level of your baffles.
You are probably right. Chalk it up to a beginner's mistake... I was shooting to utilize as much of the space in the sump as possible (for increased water volume) and also wanted to have a good capacity for the return section (though I ended up making the skimmer section a little bigger than planned, to give myself some wiggle room). However, I think making the baffles so high may have been counterproductive at worst, or simply without much benefit at best. Though it does provide the maximum possible water volume in the skimmer section, when combined with having to keep the return section half empty, it's probably a wash. I may in fact be better off with lower baffles, more water in the return section, and let the "empty" space above the baffles serve as my power-off overflow buffer.


I didn't notice whether the skimmer was running during your power-off test, but that will add a few more gallons to the sump as well.
Yes and no. I did run it and shut it off along with the other stuff, but now that I'm thinking about it, that probably does not give a completely accurate picture of the situation. Right now, the skimmer is just sitting full-depth in the sump, but I will be elevating it on a platform. I assume when I do that, more water will be contained in the body of the skimmer (in other words, the same amount of water that is in the skimmer section of the sump and uppermost portion of the skimmer now when it is running, PLUS a little additional water for the part of the skimmer that will be elevated above the waterline).



You might be able to deal with the bubbles from the fuge by slipping a piece of 2" PVC pipe over the fuge drain pipe in the return section. It would act as a simple bubble trap.
That's a good idea! So, if I understand you correctly, I'd let the drain pipe dump into the larger pipe with, I presume, a cap on the bottom to force the water to come out at the top, and have the top of the larger pipe a little above the waterline (so that the water spills out of the pipe in the same manner as it does when spilling over a baffle)?


Another possibility is to use a tee rather than an elbow on the 90 degree turn of the drain. It may allow more air to escape and reduce the problem.
Again, just to make sure I'm following you, you're suggesting a tee with the open end sticking up, with the hopes that some of the air exits through this opening instead of being carried down into the water?

This may or may not be possible. It's a little hard to see in this photo, but the last fitting is not a 90, but rather a 45. I used a 90 coming off the union to shift the drain closer to the corner of the refugium, then finished off wtih another 90 (at an angle) and a 45.

http://www.michaelcaswell.com/aquarium/IMG_1218.jpg


I could simplify this by going straight down into the refugium with the tee directly from the union (and not having that little jog towards the corner). Or, I wonder if I could drill a hole in the top of one of the existing fittings to accomplish the venting.

I went ahead and added a couple of new bulkheads to an existing order of stuff, so I'll have them on hand if these other things don't work out.

In other news, I think the flow problem from the drain has been solved. As mentioned above, I had to place considerable flow through the refugium to keep the overflow box happy. I did some reading on the official Durso standpipe page, and discovered that the problem was a result of the final piece of PVC that dumps into the skimmer section. I had it going deep into the sump, ending only a couple of inches from the bottom. Durso says that this causes backpressure in the drain line due to trapped air desperately trying to work its way back up the pipe, eventually "burping" it out, then doing it again and again. I cut the pipe so that it only extends down a few inches past the surface, and now I can totally cut off the flow to the refugium and still keep the overflow from doing the toilet flush thing.

This, however, has revealed (or caused) another issue. Now, the skimmer section looks (and sounds) like a big pot of boiling water due to the big bubbles. I don't think it was that bad when I had the pipe going down further (maybe it's because the flow is higher now, and/or because more of the trapped air is actually making it out of this pipe now, as opposed to before when much of it would travel back up and be burped out).

I wonder if perhaps your idea of adding some way for the air to escape before it hits the refugium water would also do some good here.

"Is it always going to be this loud?" (comment from my wife). In all honesty, I don't think it's that bad... the little FW tank (which has a HOB filter and a bubble wand) seems noisier to me. With the 90g, I hear a little bit of splashing noise from water flowing into the overflow box, a gentle chorus of hums from the powerheads and pumps, and the above mentioned boiling water sound from the drain dumping into the sump (the only thing, to me, that stands out).

--Mike

[mogurnda]

So, if I understand you correctly, I'd let the drain pipe dump into the larger pipe with, I presume, a cap on the bottom to force the water to come out at the top, and have the top of the larger pipe a little above the waterline (so that the water spills out of the pipe in the same manner as it does when spilling over a baffle)? Yep, that's the idea. It may not even need to go to the surface, just force the bubbles to go up.

Again, just to make sure I'm following you, you're suggesting a tee with the open end sticking up, with the hopes that some of the air exits through this opening instead of being carried down into the water? Exactly. I have tees going up from both branches of the input to my sump/fuge.


"Is it always going to be this loud?" LOL. Sounds very familiar.


This, however, has revealed (or caused) another issue. Now, the skimmer section looks (and sounds) like a big pot of boiling water due to the big bubbles. I don't think it was that bad when I had the pipe going down further (maybe it's because the flow is higher now, and/or because more of the trapped air is actually making it out of this pipe now, as opposed to before when much of it would travel back up and be burped out).
I had the same problem, and someone suggested using oversized tees as the final turns to the sump. The drain is 1" PVC, so I put a 1 X 2 X 2 tee, with a section of 1.5" pipe to go under the surface of the sump. Got rid of the burping. Funny, though, it starts to burp at feeding time. Must be the surface tension.

You can see the idea in this cartoon of the sump. Just imagine a 1" pipe intersecting with the 2" standpipe.
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/data/media/20/sump_markIII.jpg

Hope this helps a bit. Is that still freshwater? I learned that microbubbles get even worse when you get the SW in there.

[macphoto]

I had the same problem, and someone suggested using oversized tees as the final turns to the sump. The drain is 1" PVC, so I put a 1 X 2 X 2 tee, with a section of 1.5" pipe to go under the surface of the sump.
So, the 1" drain goes to the tee, one side of the tee sticks up, the other side connects to a 2" piece of pvc down to the sump? The only thing I don't understand is where the 1.5" pipe comes into play.

I might have to totally redo the drain plumbing (should have used threaded ball valves and unions instead of solvent!), since I used two 45s instead of a 90 to dump into the skimmer section. The noise in the overflow box is not bad, but this constant "bloop bloop" sound from the sump is pretty noticeable.


Is that still freshwater? I learned that microbubbles get even worse when you get the SW in there.
Great! Yes, it's still FW. Well, I'll have definitely have to do something about it. Some bubles are being generated by the "waterfall" over the final baffle into the return section (which may be reduced if I lower the baffles and raise the water level of the return section), but I think the vast majority are coming from the refugium.

--Mike

[mogurnda]

The only thing I don't understand is where the 1.5" pipe comes into play.
That's because I meant 2". Oops.

[lbear]

Hi!

Now you have 90 lbs of dry base rock. Will you plan to add any live rock?


Albert

[macphoto]

Now you have 90 lbs of dry base rock. Will you plan to add any live rock?
Yes, I plan to add 30 - 50 lbs. of live rock.

--Mike

[mogurnda]

Here's an opinion about TBS that may or may not help the decision.

I actually love the stuff, and have been thrilled about the numbers and variety of organisms that come along. Many of the sponges, corals and other inverts that rode along with my first batch almost 3 years ago are still growing and spreading.

The downside is that several types of nasties, such as hairy crabs, mantis shrimp, whelks and eunicid worms, (and I suspect sea spiders, based on some shrinking zoanthids) have also done well in my tanks. The mantises are pretty easy to extract, you just need to find the hidey hole, but the others can be trickier. Stony corals, most soft corals, and the fish don't seem to be affected, but I have finally given up on keeping tridacnid clams (look great one day, half eaten the next), and some species of zoanthid are doing poorly.

I don't mean to diss the product, because I happen to like the weird inverts, and others may have had different experiences.


using the "this was the plan all along, didn't you know?" methodYou're a brave man. I always assume my wife could be reading my threads at some point.

[lbear]

Yes, I plan to add 30 - 50 lbs. of live rock.

--Mike


First of all, this is a great thread! Please keep doing the great jobs. I am happily learning from it.

For those 30 - 50 lbs of LR, what's the percentage of TBS rock? Do you plan to add other live rock such as Fiji LR or something else?

Since your aquarium is FOWLR, is it a little bit overkill to use those premium stuffs?

Those white base rocks look nice. What's the volume of all those rocks? Any plan of aquascaping at this moment?

Albert

[macphoto]

Here's an opinion about TBS that may or may not help the decision.

I actually love the stuff, and have been thrilled about the numbers and variety of organisms that come along. Many of the sponges, corals and other inverts that rode along with my first batch almost 3 years ago are still growing and spreading.

The downside is that several types of nasties, such as hairy crabs, mantis shrimp, whelks and eunicid worms, (and I suspect sea spiders, based on some shrinking zoanthids) have also done well in my tanks. The mantises are pretty easy to extract, you just need to find the hidey hole, but the others can be trickier. Stony corals, most soft corals, and the fish don't seem to be affected, but I have finally given up on keeping tridacnid clams (look great one day, half eaten the next), and some species of zoanthid are doing poorly.

I don't mean to diss the product, because I happen to like the weird inverts, and others may have had different experiences.
Thanks... this is very helpful. I keep going back and forth, one day thinking TBS, Fiji the next day. I guess one of the things that has thrown me off a bit was the "Fiji" rock I've seen at some of the LFSs around here ("local" meaning within an hour or two driving range). Maybe I've just caught them on bad days, but much of this stuff simply looks like regular rock that someone placed in a big vat of water. Maybe it's more "live" than it appears, but it sure doesn't look that way.

Would Fiji rock ordered from liveaquaria.com be better than this? With the "damp newspaper" shipping method, how much of the beneficial stuff dies off? TBS's method of almost always keeping the rock underwater seems like a big plus.


You're a brave man. I always assume my wife could be reading my threads at some point.
No worries here (famous last words).

--Mike

[macphoto]

For those 30 - 50 lbs of LR, what's the percentage of TBS rock? Do you plan to add other live rock such as Fiji LR or something else?
It'll probably be all-TBS or all-Fiji (though, if I do go TBS, I still might pick up a piece or two of Fiji locally if needed).


Since your aquarium is FOWLR, is it a little bit overkill to use those premium stuffs?
I'm really not sure about this. I actually asked Richard of TBS a similar question, whether or not the growth that arrives on his rock would survive in my tank (with just normal lighting). He said that it would be fine. I want the rock primarily for filtration (and to seed the dry rock), and secondarily for decoration. I'm not sure whether or not the cheapest, non-pretty stuff will suffice, especially considering the relatively low live rock to dry rock ratio.


Those white base rocks look nice. What's the volume of all those rocks? Any plan of aquascaping at this moment?
No real plans yet... I haven't yet had a chance to closely examine both boxes. I think I'll need to just put them in the tank and start stacking them various ways to see what works best (though I'll probably have to wait for the LR to arrive to make firm decisions).

Honestly, I'm having a little anxiety over the aquascaping. In particular, I'm worried about stacking the rocks in a manner that seems solid, but that ends up falling over and cracking the tank. I know a lot of people don't attach the rocks to each other in any way, but I went ahead and bought a stick of that epoxy putty to have on hand if needed, and I also might use the method of drilling holes in the rock and using PVC rods to give some stability to the structure (without being as permanent as epoxying the whole thing together).

I'm also unsure of whether to stack the rocks against the back glass (maximizing the space in front), or placing them more in the middle.

Anyway, with the sheetrock repairs now finished (just need to paint the patched area tomorrow) I'm on track to start filling the tank this weekend. If I go with TBS, I want the whole thing shipped at once (not divided into 2 shipments), so I'll put the dry rock and dry sand in, and cycle with cocktail shrimp before placing the order (so that the included hermits, snails, stars, and shrimp don't have to endure the cycle). If I go with Fiji rock, I'll order it next week and use it to cycle (and add the cleanup crew afterwards).

--Mike

[mogurnda]

I like the "island" approach. I do wonder whether all the fish will hover close to the rocks, though.

I was thinking more about the TBS question. Since it will be a FOWLR, the issues with the "nasties" will probably not cause you problems. The species of mantis one normally gets (Neogonodactylus wennerae) will not attack fish, nor will the crabs or whelks. Based on what I have seen, the kids will love all the unidentified ceatures that ride along.

[macphoto]

I was thinking more about the TBS question. Since it will be a FOWLR, the issues with the "nasties" will probably not cause you problems. The species of mantis one normally gets (Neogonodactylus wennerae) will not attack fish, nor will the crabs or whelks. Based on what I have seen, the kids will love all the unidentified ceatures that ride along.
Will that particular mantis go after hermits and snails? I do worry a little bit about getting some of those with my order... I've read stories about the difficulties some have endured in trying to eradicate those little guys. But I've also read some that indicated successful and relatively easy ways to capture them (and send them on to happy homes with people who want them). Heck, I might even put one in the refugium (unless that's bad idea). It could be like a dungeon, into which misbehaving hermits can be tossed for punishment (just kidding... well, kind of).

There's one more shop I'd like to look at locally before making a decision, but it's not really near my house (it's actually pretty close to the place where I bought the tank), so I keep hoping for some work-related reason to go into that area (maybe Tuesday).

But still, even if that rock looks good, the allure of all the neat creatures on TBS rock/sand is hard to resist.

--Mike

[mogurnda]

N. wennerae will definitely go for hermits and snails. They really are not that hard to get rid of, though.

I'm mixed about having one in a fuge. In my mantis tank, there was a profusion of isopods, small worms, and stars, but larger bugs like amphipods were pretty much eradicated. Mantis are great for getting rid of unwanted whelks and hairy crabs, and it's pretty easy to set up a little tank for one if you decide to have a pet.

There may be some seasonality to getting mantis with TBS. I didn't get any in a 40 lb shipment in April, but got 7 in a 90 lb batch in August. There was also 3 years between the orders.

[macphoto]

There may be some seasonality to getting mantis with TBS. I didn't get any in a 40 lb shipment in April, but got 7 in a 90 lb batch in August. There was also 3 years between the orders.
Actually, there may be no TBS rock to be had AT ALL right now, due to the hurricanes and some other weather factors recently. I came across a TBS forum at one of the other sites (reefcentral.com, I think), and it sounded like they have not been able to get out there to harvest rocks in quite some time, and that people have been waiting for their shipments.

One other factor that's been nagging me a bit about TBS... how does the sand look? I've been seeing some photos here and there, and it almost looks like crushed coral, very coarse and rough looking. I'm trying to imagine how it would look mixed with my pretty white sugar-sized sand.

I have to go in to Baton Rouge tomorrow, and might take the long way home and head into the New Orleans area to check out what kind of rock can be found at this one particular LFS that I've never been to. I think I'll bring a rubbermaid container with me just in case.

--Mike

[van]

I think your tank is really great but I don't have the patience you have.I took a couple of shortcuts and let the lfs build my filter etc and I am buying salwater mix from them.I think your tank looks great and your wife like all of ours is impatient and will be very impressed in the end.What fish are you going to put in once all is sorted out and tank is cycled?

[mogurnda]

SO far so good. You may need to keep tweaking to get rid of the bubbles. I had to use the sponge on the skimmer outlet and make a few modifications on my baffles to finally get the problem under control.

You're right, TBS sand is course. It's full of goodies, but maybe only a little finer than crushed coral. The live sand from www.floridapets.com is fine and white, but not as full of worms and stars.

[macphoto]

What fish are you going to put in once all is sorted out and tank is cycled?
At the moment, I plan on the following:

• 1 Yellow Tang
• 2 Ocellaris Clowns
• 1 Royal Gramma
• 1 Dwarf Angel (probably a Coral Beauty)
• 1 Kaudern's Cardinal

I'd also like to possibly add a school of small fish (maybe Black Bar Chromis or Blue/Green Chromis), but I'll probably wait and see how the water parameters do after gradually adding the above fish.

--Mike

[macphoto]

SO far so good. You may need to keep tweaking to get rid of the bubbles. I had to use the sponge on the skimmer outlet and make a few modifications on my baffles to finally get the problem under control.
What kind of modifications did you end up doing to the baffles?

--Mike

[macphoto]

I ended up not going in to work today afterall. Tomorrow I have a client meeting right down the street from the previously mentioned LFS, so I'll definitely stop by there. I called them today, and apparently they have a very good selection of live rock... all of the other LFSs I've been to have one vat of rock, or maybe a 55g aquarium with some pieces in it, but not a whole lot to choose from. This place has over 3,000lbs. in stock!

He said it is Haitian rock, very lightweight. Prices range from $2.50 - $6.00 lb.

I'm assuming it looks like this (http://www.etropicals.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=44&pCatId=1359). Is this decent rock?

--Mike

[mogurnda]

What kind of modifications did you end up doing to the baffles?

--Mike
Boy, it would be hard to describe in this thread. You want to come over and have a look? :laugh:

It involved adding a few inserts to direct the water flow where I really wanted it, increasing the travel time and de-bubbling time.

[macphoto]

Boy, it would be hard to describe in this thread. You want to come over and have a look? :laugh:
Not a bad idea... :) but a picture is worth a thousand words! (though I will acknowledge reality... in this case, it's more likely that a picture is worth a thousand questions!)


It involved adding a few inserts to direct the water flow where I really wanted it, increasing the travel time and de-bubbling time.
Well, I'm clearly going to have to do something... with the skimmer and H.O.T. Magnum off, the bubbles are pretty bad. But when I turn the skimmer on, you can REALLY see the bubbles just pouring out of the return nozzle.

Stuffing some polyester filter material into the top of the first baffle helped quite a bit, but it also restricted the flow out of the skimmer section (and is probably not a real solution... just a band-aid).

I guess I'm just confused... at melevsreef.com, it looks like most of his sumps use this same basic over/under/over bubble trap, but mine doesn't seem to be having much effect!

--Mike

[mogurnda]

What a story! It may be worth just letting things break in for a while, and seeing if that takes care of the microbubbles.

Looking forward to watching the tank grow. Your wife will probably like it a lot better when the coralline takes over.

[macphoto]

What a story! It may be worth just letting things break in for a while, and seeing if that takes care of the microbubbles.
Yes, I'm thinking this too... I'll hold off on additional mods for a while to see how things work out. Compared to how bad it was at first, the current level of microbubbles is not too bad.


Looking forward to watching the tank grow. Your wife will probably like it a lot better when the coralline takes over.
Actually, she's already commented that the tank already looks better with the additional rock in place. :)

--Mike

[lbear]

It looks nice when water becomes clear. How many lb of sand do you have in the tank? You mentioned you have 20 lbs of live sand. It seems there are two layers of sand in your tank. What's the thickness of the sand bed? Do you mix different aragonite sand? What's the grain size?


Albert

[macphoto]

How many lb of sand do you have in the tank? You mentioned you have 20 lbs of live sand. It seems there are two layers of sand in your tank. What's the thickness of the sand bed? Do you mix different aragonite sand? What's the grain size?
In addition to the 20lbs of live sand (which sounds like a lot more than it really is... I guess the water included really weighs it down), I have 60lbs. of Aragamax oolite "sugar sized" sand, along with 15lbs. of a similar (but slightly bigger grain size) that I got at PetSmart (I think it was the Special Grade Reef Sand from CaribSea). Though it looks so in the photos, there is no distinct layering of the sands (I think that's some kind of shadow effect)... it's all mixed together.

I'm shooting for about a 2" sand bed. The current from the powerheads and return pump created the "dunes" effect, dramatically varying the depth in some spots. Regardless, I probably have more sand in the tank than I need, and I might move some of it down to the refugium (which currently has 30lbs. of "fresh" Aragamax sand), since I want it to have a true DSB.

--Mike

[Emg]

That looks really good, but I'm wondering if you're going to have problems with the diatrus settling in behind your rock which is right up against your filter wall (I think that's what that is)

I also have to say....I have never attempted a SW tank......yet......so I'm no authority on this sort of thing.......but I am getting lots of info at this site to file away for when I do take the plunge !

Fantastic Job BTW !! Thanks for all the info and all those wonderful pictures of your progress. I really look forward to see this all up, stocked and running ! :thm:

[macphoto]

That looks really good, but I'm wondering if you're going to have problems with the diatrus settling in behind your rock which is right up against your filter wall (I think that's what that is)
I'm thinking that the clean-up crew (hermits, snails, starfish, mini-stars, worms, etc.) will take care of detritus and excess food, even in these tight spots. I also might aim a powerhead blowing across the back of the tank to keep stuff from settling back there.

--Mike

[tomdkat]

I went with an expensive Eclipse 12 gallon acrylic tank because, as before, I figured a 15g tall (a whopping $38 at my LFS!), plus cost of drilling 2 holes ($50), and a cheap light ($10) would put me in the same ballpark as this $90 Eclipse.
So you drilled holes in the side of the refugium (the Eclipse) so you could run intake from the refugium into the sump?

Peace...

[lbear]

It looks very nice!

The magaflow box is a headache of aquascaping. It seems the bottom inlet of the magaflow box is blocked by rocks. Is there any potential problem?

I also have a noob question: Why don't you place live rock after your tank is cycled?


Albert

[colesy]

If you add rock after the tank is cycled, it could start another mini cycle, as any of the dead stuff on the rock would cause a nitrate spike. Usually you add rock to help the cycle along. The only time you would add rock after a cycle, is if it's fully cured.

[macphoto]

So you drilled holes in the side of the refugium (the Eclipse) so you could run intake from the refugium into the sump?
If I understand your question correctly, yes. The refugium is supplied via a tee/ball valve on the line from the return pump (so a little bit of the flow from the sump to the main tank is diverted to the refugium). The refugium then gravity drains (through those two holes) back into the return section of the sump.

--Mike

[macphoto]

It looks very nice!
Thanks!


The magaflow box is a headache of aquascaping. It seems the bottom inlet of the magaflow box is blocked by rocks. Is there any potential problem?
I don't think so... I can look through rocks and see some of the bottom intake slots. Plus, any rocks that are directly in front of the intake don't totally seal it off. If anything, I think it will provide a nice little flow through this area of rock.

--Mike

[tomdkat]

If I understand your question correctly, yes. The refugium is supplied via a tee/ball valve on the line from the return pump (so a little bit of the flow from the sump to the main tank is diverted to the refugium). The refugium then gravity drains (through those two holes) back into the return section of the sump.
Yep, you understood me. This is the first time I've seen a sump "assembled", let alone refugium so I'm trying to get my head wrapped around what's going on. :)

Peace...

[macphoto]

Yep, you understood me. This is the first time I've seen a sump "assembled", let alone refugium so I'm trying to get my head wrapped around what's going on.
Well, keep in mind that this is not necessarily the "normal" way to do it. From what I can tell, it's far more common (and simpler) to incorporate the refugium as part of the sump, rather than have it as a separate standalone tank like mine is. Some people like to have the refugium in a visible location, which would necessitate a separate tank. In my case, I did it this way for the sake of being able to fit a freshwater storage tank in the stand while having as much sump/refugium capacity as possible. But without the freshwater storage tank, I could have fit a 40 breeder in there (it would have stuck out of the back of the stand a bit, but it would fit).

--Mike

[colesy]

I think those fanworm guys are feather dusters.. They will probably come out further at night...

I consider you lucky to get live rock at $6.00/lbs, up in Kingston, Canada we pay $10.00/lbs at our LFS, and if we get to Ottawa at all (3 hours away) we will still pay around $8.00/lbs..

[mogurnda]

Now it gets fun, with more than just bacteria in the tank.

I got a similar kit from IPSF a few years ago, and it was fine. I'll agree with the "I paid $99 for this" sentiment, but the amphipods and "strombus" snails (actually columbellids) are keepers. Don't worry about snail overpopulation. There will always be some cruising around, but it's not like FW pond snails.

Good luck with the gracilaria. I have tried several times, and it has never taken off in my fuges. It may be that my green macros, like ulva and chaeto, out compete it, or maybe I didn't give it enough circulation to keep it in motion.

[lbear]

I had a meeting with a potential bride in the city today, so I stopped by the LFS (the one from which I bought the tank), and ended up taking home this really nice looking Florida aquacultured rock...

I am looking forward to see the latest pictures of your tank. Any update?

How many lb of liverock in your display tank and refugium now?

I am thinking of getting some hirocks, either 30 lbs or 60 lbs. What's the approximate size of each piece of hirock you've got?


Albert

[macphoto]

I am looking forward to see the latest pictures of your tank. Any update?
The cleaning crew arrived this afternoon (FedEx "Priority" service doesn't really exist around here since the hurricane). I also made some small adjustments to the rock arrangement... will post more info and pics this evening.


How many lb of liverock in your display tank and refugium now?
Let's see... 90lbs. of dry rock and 35lbs. of live rock in the tank, and I bought a few more pieces of LR yesterday (about 8lbs. worth) for the refugium.


I am thinking of getting some hirocks, either 30 lbs or 60 lbs. What's the approximate size of each piece of hirock you've got?
I'd say that the average is about 6 - 7 inches. There are, of course, some smaller pieces and some larger pieces, but pretty much all of them have interesting shapes.

In this hazy photo, only the hirocks are in the tank...

http://www.michaelcaswell.com/aquarium/IMG_1269.jpg

--Mike

[macphoto]

Oh, forgot to mention a few other details...

I decided not risk not quarantining these first fish. I figured that since they were tank-raised, there would be less of a chance of them carrying parasites or disease. I will monitor them carefully for signs of ich or other problems, and worst case, will do what it takes to get them out (removing rocks, etc.) if treatment is needed.

I may push it and add one or two other small fish without quarantining, but the dwarf angel and yellow tang will definitely be quarantined, as by that point, if the main tank were to be infected, having to put ALL the fish (current residents and new arrivals) in quarantine for treatment would be a big deal.

I acclimated the clowns in a bucket, much the same was as I did the cleanup crew... gradually adding tank water, about a half cup at a time. I had intended acclimate for about 2 hours, but after a little while I noticed one of the clowns began to be very aggressive towards the other. I was concerned that they (especially the one being attacked) would be weakend by this, so I netted them and put them in the tank after just 1 hour.

They've been perfectly civil since then, swimming around peacefully together. I guess it was the tight confines of the bucket that set off the aggressiveness. Maybe next time I'm acclimating multiple fish, a few pieces of PVC for hiding spots would be a good idea (or, even better, multiple buckets).

--Mike

[macphoto]

oh those are sweet pics!
I never really wanted a starfish but after seeing your pics I'm rethinking :)
They are indeed fascinating creatures. I found it impressive that both starfish immediately headed for the crevice in the rocks upon being introduced to the tank... I guess they do this by feel?

--Mike

[OrionGirl]

Stars actually use all those feet to 'taste' things as well. And, speed will vary with species. Brittles and serpent are indeed very fast, when they want to be. They are also readily trained-if you feed them at the same place each time, they will learn to go there when hungry and beg.

[macphoto]

Stars actually use all those feet to 'taste' things as well. And, speed will vary with species. Brittles and serpent are indeed very fast, when they want to be. They are also readily trained-if you feed them at the same place each time, they will learn to go there when hungry and beg.
Yes, I noticed that when I drop a shrimp pellet in, he feels around with his tentacles, and it was pretty clear that he was "tasting" (and maybe smelling as well) the area to locate the food. When he finds it, the lucky tentacle curls up, bringing to food to his mouth.

Also, I watched closely when I fed him yesterday (he pried the shrimp pellet away from a equally determined nassarius snail), after he consumed the pellet, a few little bits remained on the bottom of the tentacle... using those many tiny hair-like things on that bottom surface, he actually passed the food from one to another towards the central disk area.

The kids really get a kick out of watching him eat, and it's hard to resist their "feed him one more!" pleas.

--Mike

[OrionGirl]

Hydroids? They don't look like foraminiferans...

[macphoto]

Hydroids?
Hydroids, eh? Sounds pretty sinister, but a quick search indicates that these guys will probably not cause trouble, correct?

--Mike

[mogurnda]

In short, I was not blown away by this package, but I do not feel that it was a total waste either. That's about the way I felt. Frankly, the whole amphipod kit is a bit lame. A wad of chaeto, or even filter floss, makes them just as happy.

I like the tupperware montage :D

[macphoto]

That's about the way I felt. Frankly, the whole amphipod kit is a bit lame. A wad of chaeto, or even filter floss, makes them just as happy.
I've been watching the refugium quite a bit. I've spotted a few small specimens scurring about on the sand bed, and have also seen a few large ones, but they seem to be mostly hanging out in the rock. As a side note, these creatures (especially the larger ones) seem very purposeful in their movements. I'll watch as one exits a hole in a rock, darts across the sandbed into an adjacent rock, then returns a minute later, as if he just went to borrow a cup of sugar from his neighbor.

I've had a few Scarlet Reef Hermit deaths... 2 confirmed (and another 1 or 2 possible as evidenced by the Scarlet Reef Hermit parts I sometimes see scattered on the sand). One of the deaths was probably not caused by any foul play... I just noticed the mostly-intact dead hermit laying outside of his shell. But last night, I think I witnessed a mugging-in-progress by a Blue-Leg. I think it was already pretty much over by the time I noticed it, but a Blue-Leg looked to be trying to extract an apparently dead Scarlet out of his shell. This took place in a dark alley behind a rock, making it hard to see exactly what was going on. But some Nassarius snails joined in as well, presumably hired by the Blue-Leg to get rid of the body.

I'm trying to make sure these guys get enough food... I add a little extra when I feed the fish, ensuring that at least some bits make it down to the sandbed. But when I turn the pump and powerheads back on, many of these pieces start flying around again. So, I've taken to just turning on the powerheads for a while, which give the bits of food time to fly around the tank and eventually settle somewhere, before turning on the return pump.

--Mike

[tomdkat]

So, does your aquarium still look basically like this:

http://www.michaelcaswell.com/aquarium/IMG_1408.JPG

except with some fish? Can you post an updated wide shot if things have changed?

Thanks!

Peace....

[macphoto]

Yes, it still basically looks like that. I did move a few more scoops of sand down the refugium, trying to thin down the main tank's sand bed a bit. I also removed the center powerhead... the clowns were handling the current ok, but they just seemed to be struggling all the time. With just the two MJ1200s and the sump return, I'm in the neighborhood of 1000gph, so it should be fine.

--Mike

[corbinwelter]

so you are not going to use a wet/dry filter?

[macphoto]

so you are not going to use a wet/dry filter?
Nope, no wet/dry. Just a sump, skimmer, refugium, live rock, and detritivores. So far it's working great... ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are all zero, and the clean-up guys make short work of any food that makes it past the fish.

--Mike

[lbear]

What is your lighting setup? Never hear you mention it.


Albert

[macphoto]

What is your lighting setup? Never hear you mention it.
Nothing fancy for lighting... just a dual-strip normal output fluorescent with one white and one actinic blue. I was doubtful as to whether or not this would light up the tank sufficiently (LFS insisted it would), but it really does look fine.

--Mike

[macphoto]

More from the "what the heck is this creature in my tank?" files...

http://www.michaelcaswell.com/aquarium/IMG_2272.jpg


One of my daughters spotted this thing on the overflow box... any idea what it is? Kinda looks like a 3-legged starfish of some sort.

--Mike

[colesy]

After consulting with a few friends it looks like star shaped one looks to be a GREAT close-up of a Asterina star. Most are reef-safe, however some are noted to much on corals....

The other pic looks like a feather duster worm casing..

[macphoto]

After consulting with a few friends it looks like star shaped one looks to be a GREAT close-up of a Asterina star. Most are reef-safe, however some are noted to much on corals....
Very interesting... is it normal for them to only have 3 legs?



The other pic looks like a feather duster worm casing..
Really? I assumed they were snails (they have that "spiral" kind of look). Again, I've got probably a hundred or so of those, mostly on the back glass.

--Mike

[colesy]

Upon further investigation.... well, read this...

http://www.melevsreef.com/id/spirorbid_worms.html


As far as the star, many people I have talked to said they have quite a few of these in their tanks, and don't seem to cause any trouble..

[itstheantitang]

If you have good eyesight and the time is right the spiral-white-dots (I have them) will be filtering food with a red crown, like a featherduster.
It really is cool.

[macphoto]

Sorry for the lack of updates... we finally moved back into our office in New Orleans last month, and getting things rolling there again has kept me pretty busy.

The fish are doing great, as are the other residents. I'm dying to add more fish, especially a Yellow Tang, but I need to get the quarantine tank setup first. I should have done it a few weeks ago, because I'm going out of town in late March to shoot a medical conference, and don't want to freak my wife out by leaving both the main tank and a quarantine tank in her care! So, I think I'll probably have to wait until then to start the quarantine for the new additions.

I'll take some more pics soon... tank pretty much looks the same, but I'm getting what I assume is coraline growth on the previously barren rocks (yellow, green red).

--Mike

[aquariumnewbie]

Is all that required the plumbing and stuff the overflow and the sump because i want to start a 75 maybe 90 gallon sw like yours live rock and fish
do i need all of that great tank how much live rock do you have in the tank
do you buy live sand
not to be rude what was your total cost of everything

[macphoto]

Is all that required the plumbing and stuff the overflow and the sump because i want to start a 75 maybe 90 gallon sw like yours live rock and fish
do i need all of that great tank how much live rock do you have in the tank
do you buy live sand
If I understand correctly, you're asking "does it really need to be that complicated?" Probably not. I just wanted to put as much of the "ugly stuff" (heaters, skimmer, etc.) out of sight, and also wanted the other benefits of having a sump and refugium (increased water volume, 'pod growth, nitrogen export, easier water changes, etc.).



not to be rude what was your total cost of everything
I don't have an exact number, but a fairly accurate estimate would be about $3,500.

--Mike

[itstheantitang]

How is the quiet on 3000 working?
Is it quiet, hot, vibrating, or is there anything bad about it?

Thinking of a sump for my tank.

[macphoto]

How is the quiet on 3000 working?
Is it quiet, hot, vibrating, or is there anything bad about it?
Actually, it's working great now. I had previously posted (in another thread, I think) that the pump would often fail to restart after stopping it for feedings, but Big Al's exchanged it, and the new one is working perfectly.

I have no complaints about it now... it's quiet, and although I can't say for certain how much heat it's giving off, this pump draws less power than the comparable MagDrive pump which, from what I understand, means less heat (in addition to being a bit cheaper to run). That said, I've found that I do need a fan blowing across the water to keep the tank temperature in the neighborhood of 80 degrees when the house temperature is in the mid 70's or higher.

--Mike

[macphoto]

have you started the move yet?
Gearing up for it now. We're closing on the new house next Tuesday, but the current owners will not be moving until May 1st. Our move to the new house is schedule for May 13th, but I probably won't try to move the aquarium on that day since I don't think I'll have the opportunity to tear it down and move the inhabitants to the 10g quarantine tank until a week or so after (and I think it's going to be at least a 2 day process).

I'm pleased that the spot we've picked out in the new house for the aquarium is on the other side of the wall from the kitchen. I will probably not get as fancy as I did with this install, with the supply/drain box in the wall and the RO/DI mounted to the side of the stand. Instead, I'll put the RO/DI under the kitchen sink and run tubing to the storage tank in the stand.

--Mike

[macphoto]

Well, the move is underway! Here's what I've done so far...

1) Removed the rock, placing the best pieces underwater in a Rubbermaid container to minimize die-off. The base rock pieces are in another container, but are not submerged.

2) Set up a temporary 10 gallon tank at the new house, using existing water transported from the main tank. I went ahead and put a few pieces of LR in there both to help with biofiltering (in addition to a Fluval sponge filter), and to give the hermit crabs a place to hang out on.

3) Removed most of the residents (the two clowns, the royal gramma, two shrimp, and a bunch of hermit crabs and snails). As an experiment, before removing the rock, I attempted to catch the fish. Using two nets, I was eventually able to flush out and catch one of the clowns. But the royal gramma would have been impossible to catch that way... he just headed for his little hole in a rock where he lives, and refused to come out. Even when I had most of the rock out, he STILL found places to hide.

4) Transported the livestock to the 10 gallon tank at the new house.

5) Filled a ~40 gallon (newly purchased) trash can with aquarium water, which is now sitting in the living room, and emptied the remaining water in the aquarium down the drain. Once the aquarium is set up again, the stored water will be transported 5 gallons at a time, and I'll mix up new SW for the rest.

6) Scooped out a few "seed" areas of sand where some spaghetti worms and little starfish were located. This was placed in a small bucket with some water present as well, to increase the chance of these guys' survival.

7) Scooped out the rest of the sand and put it in a rubbermaid container.

8) Dismantled the overflow plumbing, sump, refugium, auto top-off, etc. Interestingly, there were some tubeworms living in bottom of the overflow. I managed to get at least one of them out (so far I've only seen one crown emerge... the other tubes I retrieved might be empty), and placed them in the bucket with the seed sand / water.

9) Moved the stand and aquarium to the new house.


So, tomorrow I'll try to put it all back together. Though the aquarium as at the new house, the water, rock, sand, sump, refugium, and a bunch of other stuff are sitting in the living room, garnering nasty looks from my wife. Hopefully by Wednesday I'll have everyone back where they belong!

Right now I am totally exhausted... this was an overwhelming project! (and it's only half over!)

--Mike

[macphoto]

An update...

The good news is that the tank is (mostly) set back up now. I still have to finish re-installing the refugium and auto top-off, but the main tank and sump are up and running. I'm relatively satisfied with the rock layout, and I ended up with THREE nice fanworms from the overflow box (they're in the main tank now, but I haven't seen them in a day or two).

Now the bad news. First, I lost the Royal Gramma. He died the day after moving him (and the two clowns) to the 10g. The clowns appear to be ok (they were moved back to the main tank a few days ago). They had worried me a bit too, because they refused to eat the whole time they were in the 10g (hunger strike over their downgraded accomodations perhaps?). But the seem to be eating fine now.

Second piece of bad news... I chipped the glass. If it had happened during the tearing down, loading, moving, unloading, etc., I wouldn't have felt so bad. But no. Yesterday, I was holding a pyrex container, getting ready to go fill it with RO/DI water for evaporation top-off (have to do it manually since the auto top-off isn't hooked up yet), and I somehow tagged the front right corner of the aquarium, taking a nice sized chunk out of it.

Though the chip does extend a bit into the the silicone between the front panel and side panel, I'm thinking that it will be ok... there appears to be enough silicone to maintain watertightness, and because it's not a "crack" (which is supposedly much worse than a chip), hopefully the structural integrity was not compromised.

I'll post a photo in the next few days.

--Mike

[Xteme From HeLL]

im new to this, so i might be asking some dumb questions but if you need to make a water change you can do it from the tank at the bottom? and why did you put sand and the rock in there? also i want to set up my 29 gallon tank as a salt water.. would i need to do all that like you did?

[macphoto]

im new to this, so i might be asking some dumb questions but if you need to make a water change you can do it from the tank at the bottom? and why did you put sand and the rock in there? also i want to set up my 29 gallon tank as a salt water.. would i need to do all that like you did?
Actually, there are two tanks in the stand... a sump on the left, and a refugium on the right. The sump's purpose is to have a convenient place to hide the skimmer, heaters, etc., and to increase water volume. The refugium (with sand and rock) provides additional denitrification, water volume, a place for 'pods and other little critters to reproduce, and with macroalgea growing in there, it can reduce nutrients in the water.

And yes, usually I do water changes by draining 5 or 10 gallons from the sump instead of from the main tank.

I'm not experienced enough to tell you whether or not a sump and/or refugium is needed (or even practical) for a 29 gallon.

--Mike

[Reefscape]

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