Euthanasia-discussion thread

[jpappy789]

Euthanasia-discussion thread
Article found here:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums...d.php?t=148361 (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148361)

Very well written! Of course there will be controversy but its nice for someone to put out the actual methods out there to be used, hopefully never though...thanks ct!

[kimbo3311]

OK, this was well written, and I do agree that there are ethically good ways and ethically bad ways to kill a fish. I also agree with the listing here. clove oil is very effective, and you can easily overdose them to kill them. My only problem with this article is the statement that it is a myth that fish do not feel pain. Yes they have stress responses, but so do many invertebrates. Fish do not have the necissary part of their brain to interpret pain. they do have sensory cells, and yes, they can be "trained" but they are physiologically unable to "feel" pain.

This of course does NOT mean that fish are not worthy of proper, ethical treatment. They should be taken care of just like any other animal, and cruel treatment is never justified.

[ct-death]

First off thank you for your time to comment and offer your thoughts. I certainly encourage an open dialog as I know this is a "touchy" subject.

However, as to the idea of pain I would like to offer this for discussion --

"Definition of Pain

Pain: An unpleasant sensation that can range from mild, localized discomfort to agony. Pain has both physical and emotional components. The physical part of pain results from nerve stimulation. Pain may be contained to a discrete area, as in an injury, or it can be more diffuse, as in disorders like fibromyalgia (http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=363). Pain is mediated by specific nerve fibers that carry the pain impulses to the brain where their conscious appreciation may be modified by many factors. "
- MedicineNet.com

I tried very hard to see if this "Myth" was credible, but based on science,
Pain is literally the conscious reaction of the brain to firing nerve endings as a result of
some undesirable (or even potentially unwanted) environmental stimuli

Simply, Pain is experienced by the brain in a process termed nociception. This is the detection of a stimulus by a pain receptor, and transmission of the information to the brain via nerves.

Traditionally, Pain may be experienced in response to ...

- Stimulation of a Pain receptor (nociceptor), which can be caused by any number of stimuli such as: chemical, heat or from some physical effect beyond a tolerance level.- Actual damage to a pain nerve
- Brain Damage interupting this pathway


I'll end with this, and I think this is what defines your point Kimbo (please correct em if I'm wrong!)...

It's the idea that in order for Pain to exist, you must have a sentient life with a consciousness vs the simple presence of the nervous pathways and physiological responses associated with pain.

As a result, I often ran into this:

"In order to show that a fish experiences pain, it is necessary to show that a fish has consciousness.
Without consciousness, there is no pain."
- Dr. James D. Rose, Ph.D., Univ. of Wyoming (a critic of fish sensations)

Please feel free to share your information.

Thanks

[bigedv3]

EUTHANASIA


First, I did not plan on having this Topic become my first article; however, I have seen many posts ask about, ‘How do you humanely euthanize a fish?’ Many of those same threads provide differing opinions on not only the methods to employ but also to its necessity…

Myths: “Fish can’t feel pain right?”
This is a very common question, and myth, but more often than not I have found that most are simply looking for some sense of reassurance that what they are proposing to do is ethically/morally okay. The truth is, however, that of course they feel pain. Fish have an intricate nervous-system, but we often don't readily see the signs of distress because fish lack the facial responses and expressions we readily associate with pain and fear typical in most animals. The reality is, if you're observant to the signs, many fish noticeably exhibit either behavioral or physical signs of affliction when they're distressed or in pain (ie. vigorous and often violent movements; color-shifts, often fading or paling in nature; and changes in normal social and other behavioral activities are all clues to their distress). Many of these same symptoms we actively use in our hobby to discover wounds, diseases or other ailments earlier than we perhaps would otherwise.

What is it, and Why do it?
euthanasia (yū'thə-nā'zhə, -zhē-ə) n.
Greek, meaning “Good Death”.
“Euthanasia is the practice of ending the life of a human or animal who is incurably ill in a painless or minimally painful way, for the purpose of limiting suffering. Laws around the world vary greatly with regard to euthanasia, and are constantly subject to change as cultural values shift and better palliative care, or treatments become available.”


- Reference: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_euthanasia)

How do I know if my fish needs to be Euthanized?
Reasons for Euthanizing a Fish –

Irreversible Disease - Cannot be treated, such as Cancer
Major Injury - Fish cannot survive on own
Suffering – Non-treatable ailment (i.e. In some cases; old age)
CullingNOT Reasons for Euthanizing your Fish -

Fish outgrows it’s environment, or is inappropriate for your setup
Fish becomes aggressive towards other tank-mates
Lose interest
Moving, or desire to change your tank
Any other reason given that is correctable or the cause of the ownerMethods Commonly Approved:
I would like to preface this section simply by saying that many methods are in use and that most are controversial (as is the very notion of Euthanizing), but I have only tried to list those methods deem ‘acceptable’ by most and would be considered common practices. Certainly others exist…

Freezing –
Correct Approach is to place a bowl of water into a freezer and let stand until a thin crust of ice has formed. The ice should be sufficiently formed to require one to break threw the surface. The goal is to ideally reach a Fahrenheit temperature of 29 degrees (or less). Once achieved, a fish may be placed in the bowl. Nearly instant, it is a very quick and efficient method by most accounts.



so is one supposed to set the doomed fish on the unbroken "ice surface" or break through and try to get the fish into the water under the top layer of ice?

[TKOS]

I would also add that while your reasons for "not euthanizing" a fish are admirable they are not always the case. Often people mistakenly buy the wrong fish (balas, ID Sharks, pacus) simply because they are misinformed. It can be very difficult to find a new home for extremely large fish. Ideally the person would not buy a wrong fish but it surely does happen. And there are just as well other times where a fish can't be given away. Just because I can't care for my fish I wouldn't just give it away to anyone who asked for it.

I would suggest this is the only controversial part of the article. The choice of euthanasia is up to the ethical beliefs of the owner.

[ct-death]

so is one supposed to set the doomed fish on the unbroken "ice surface" or break through and try to get the fish into the water under the top layer of ice?
In the water, as the ice is broken up. Essentially, the ice is only used as a visual to determine if the water itself is ready for this purpose.

[ct-death]

I would also add that while your reasons for "not euthanizing" a fish are admirable they are not always the case. Often people mistakenly buy the wrong fish (balas, ID Sharks, pacus) simply because they are misinformed. It can be very difficult to find a new home for extremely large fish. Ideally the person would not buy a wrong fish but it surely does happen. And there are just as well other times where a fish can't be given away. Just because I can't care for my fish I wouldn't just give it away to anyone who asked for it.
Although I may wish it were not the case, but you are very correct. I did not include this purposefully, however, becaue I did not want to introduce anymore "gray-areas" than necessary.

I would like to think that as one makes a poorly informed decision - albiet from "expert" guidance from your LFS - that you will soon realize the mistake and the LFS should feel an obligation to correct the issue. I know that here locally this is often (but not always) the case.

Secondly, I did not want to offer an easy "out", and I realize that this was not your point; But I feel strongly that every effort should be made to find a suitable home for any unwanted pet - As a last resort...yes.

Just to muddy the waters and stimulate conversation:
If I bought a St. Bernard and lived in a small Studio, later realized my mistake, I do not think anyone would condone any method of Euthanization...

[msjinkzd]

Lets not turn this into a debate. Please keep comments so that they are relevant and helpful to the article or they will be removed. This is supposed to provide information that is helpful and relevant to fishkeepers, not turn into a moral or ethical debate. Ideally one would research any fish before purchase.

[dent20]

The ethical ways you mention are a bit complicated and in my opinion have more potential for things to go wrong. I had to put down a female rainbow cichlid today after a few weeks of watching her sore grow to an enormous size. It was big and deep. I hated doing it, but I wrapped her in a paper towel and used the smash method. One quick blow and it was over. Was it fun for me? No, and I dread the thought of ever having to do it again! But I would contend that it makes more sense than putting a frightened fish through even more turmoil by moving it around a bunch. I decided if I'm going to keep fish it's something I have to be willing to do when the situation warrants it.

[anaerobe]

Fish are conscious creatures. There is no question about it. They are living, breathing just like you and me.

My bettas and plecos recognize me. My other fish (platies, danios) don't, but it's probably because they don't care to (and that's quite alright). I had 2 fiddle crabs - completely different personalities. I had 2 tiny ADF frogs, they both flinch at pain (I had to move them around between tanks).

All in all, I believe there is no question that fish (and other aquatics) are conscious, whether true or not. Leave the scientifically proven alone, because it is pretty much impossible to PROVE that even you and me are conscious. In my opinion, just knowing that they have a nervous system is enough to say they do feel pain.

I was also thinking back to my Human Physiology labs, one of which we were poking earthworms to measure muscle movements. They flinch at the smallest poke. Poor guys. Yes, even earthworms feel pain. You need to be able to feel pain to survive in this world.

[anaerobe]

Another thing, when we wonder about things that we can't prove, we should just think - of the possibility that is of benefit to us and the other side.

So it is to our benefit to think that fish can feel pain - as much as we do. Because it benefits the fish that they will get treated well, and it benefits us that we are not hurting them.
It is detrimental to think fish don't have pain because we end up hurting the fish if they really do feel it.

Anyway, the only thing I'm wondering about this whole Euthanasia thing... How can you tell whichever method is "humane"? I mean, no one's coming back from the dead to tell you how it feels... I think it is possible to appear peaceful and yet feel pain. Any thoughts on this?

[msjinkzd]

I would suggest making a thread in general freshwater if you want to have a discussion.

[kimmisc]

The last time I euthanized a fish was when her right gill, side of her face, and eye appeared to be rotting off quickly (popped up in 1 day). She was suffering and flashing every few seconds, swimming upside down half the time and twirling. In a rush, I dumped a tray of ice in a bowl of water, and when it was very cold, I dropped her in. It didn't kill her! In a panic to put her out of her misery, I put her on the counter, grabbed a knife, and chopped her head off. When I did this, I saw her heart beating for about 15 seconds afterwards. It seems impossible that her heart was beating after her head was chopped off.

This sounds awful, and it was. I was depressed for days and still depressed to recall it.

So when thinking about euthanizing, think ahead and prepare so that it works quickly and correctly. She would have been better off flashing for another 45 minutes or so than go through an agonizing death. :( Don't make a stupid mistake like I did.

[Intelekt]

Fish are conscious creatures. There is no question about it. They are living, breathing just like you and me.

My bettas and plecos recognize me. My other fish (platies, danios) don't, but it's probably because they don't care to (and that's quite alright). I had 2 fiddle crabs - completely different personalities. I had 2 tiny ADF frogs, they both flinch at pain (I had to move them around between tanks).

All in all, I believe there is no question that fish (and other aquatics) are conscious, whether true or not. Leave the scientifically proven alone, because it is pretty much impossible to PROVE that even you and me are conscious. In my opinion, just knowing that they have a nervous system is enough to say they do feel pain.

this is the same half researched reasoning for the evangelical explination for man living with dinosaurs, very bad information, and science is EXACTLY that, only the things wich can be PROVEN.

you say your fish have a memory of you however for the most part they cant see you, depending on the thickness of your aquarium glass they cant see out of it at all.

another main point about pain is that without a memory pain is inconsequential, this is easily explained using the metaphor of a human male having a circumcision, while the act is phisically painful and the baby will cry, shortly after there is no memory of the event, this is due to an undeveloped brain at this point, however fish do not develop memories in the same sense that humans do because most memories rely on spoken language to describe said memory. fish do not comprehend language therefore have no refrence for pain. the reason an earthworm moves when you poke it is the basic fundamental of any living thing, INSTINCT, animals lives are completely dependant on instinct and our CONCIOUSNESS is what seperates us from them. I love my fish but I also understand that animals are subservant to humans, we are more developed and posess a level of intelligence that no animal could ever obtain.

just thought this discussion should have the real root discussed which is the fact that any form of euthinisation is simply that, killing the creature for its own benefit, this is to make us "the human owner" feel better about the situation, becasue when you think about the idea of keeping fish as pets, that alone is taking them out of their natural environment and placing them on display for asthetic quality, so the whiole humane portion of the discussion is kind of redundant, the humanity of keeping fish in a glass box is on par with that of smashing it with a mallet...

i do however agree that you should not flush a live fish down the toilet, and that is just a respect thing for me, in my climate the fish would die extremely quickly, however it seems just evil to simply flush it for no reason.

[Que]

If we go by this definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humane

hu·mane Pronunciation: \hyü-ˈmān, yü-\ Function:adjective Etymology:Middle English humainDate:circa 1500 1 : marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humans) or animalsThen putting a fish down when there is no reasonable hope of a cure is humane. It's ethics which dictates the right or wrong of how we do it. There are several methods described in this thread where some are considered wrong and some are considered right. In the best interest of the animal I have always considered the fastest method of putting a fish down to be the most ethical. Quickly severing the spine at the base of the head has always been the fastest method I have used and is practically instantaneous. I realize this method is not for everyone but is the most ethical in my estimation. I'm surprised it hasn't been listed as one of the "approved" methods.

Q

[TwoHeadedPig]

I appreciated this article. There's enough gray area in the hobby as it is (such as, is it even ethical to support an industry that removes live animals from their natural habitat, etc, etc). so thanks.

Can these methods be safely used with other tank dwellers like larger frogs, newts, inverts, etc?

[Tongue33]

I like the article as a whole..

I do however diagree with the useage of the word Barbaric.

Personally I believe Blunt trauma to be more humane than Clove oil. Though That is simply my opinion.

[jm1212]

If we go by this definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humane

Then putting a fish down when there is no reasonable hope of a cure is humane. It's ethics which dictates the right or wrong of how we do it. There are several methods described in this thread where some are considered wrong and some are considered right. In the best interest of the animal I have always considered the fastest method of putting a fish down to be the most ethical. Quickly severing the spine at the base of the head has always been the fastest method I have used and is practically instantaneous. I realize this method is not for everyone but is the most ethical in my estimation. I'm surprised it hasn't been listed as one of the "approved" methods.

Q exactly.

When I did this, I saw her heart beating for about 15 seconds afterwards. It seems impossible that her heart was beating after her head was chopped off.


excess electrical impulses can cause the fish to move, the mouth to open and close, etc. for a few seconds after the fish is dead. if the spinal cord was cut and the head was cut off, the fish was dead. the body cannot survive without the information source that tells everything what to do. all that you saw were just leftover impulses from the brain.

[PsyKick]

It seems to me that ethics and morality aside, using clove oil to sedate the fish before proceeding with ANY of these other forms of death is preferable to not.

It just seems nicer to put a fish to sleep before you kill it...