OMG!!!

[Neervana]

hey all....

have not been on for a while, only for 5 mins each day i guess because my aunty and uncle came to stay round, so i've been busy cooking, cleaning etc. anyway, yesterday night i went to my friend's house because it's ages since me and him have had a chat. so we were talking and drinking tea and stuff then i look at the corner table because the phone starts ringing and guess what i see....a FIVE gallon clear seal tank with a big oranda swimming around in it. my friend sees me staring and he's like "yeah, did you see our fish? he's massive, called the incredible hulk!!! had him for years now..." but i'm not thinking about that, what i'm thinking is what the hell is an oranda, especially an oranda doing in such a small tank?!!! i walked up to him to save me some time to think about what to say, and i can see that he is healthy and very active...can't exactly turn around, but he looks ok. so i say "hmmm...yeah, he is big...don't you think he needs a new tank? like a bigger one?" and my friend says, "no...he's fine...we've had him for years..." they feed him only aquarian flakes and he is in such a tiny tank i feel so sorry for him, but they are a strict hindu family with an extremely strict mother so i'm not sure how to tell them they need to upgrade.

anyway, enough of my ranting! what do you guys think? i'm meeting them all (family) next week for dinner, and i'm wondering what i should say to them? i can't say "you need to upgrade, that's unacceptable" but i can't offer to buy them a new tank either because they would find that insulting. should i just keep quiet? i feel sorry for Hulk, he seems...so...unhappy in such a small tank. before replying keep in mind that they are exremely sensitive people, so if i must talk about moving this fish into a bigger place, i will need to say it in such a way that will not cause offence.

[faun]

you could always look for a free tank then say you got given it but have no room and would they like it for their fish or give it too them as a birthday/xmas ,etc pressie. If its free or a gift it can't really be seen as offensive.

[Reefscape]

Sensitive family or not, simply telling them that, "in your opinion", that fish would be better suited in an aquarium of "X" ammount of gallons, is not going to hurt their feelings or offend them...Really dont see how it can personally...

If it was me, i would simply convey my point of view, then leave the rest to them...Ultimatly, its their fish / tank to do as they choose, whether we agree with them or not...

[Neervana]

i did want to tell them about the size of the tank, but they are soooooo sensitive, they would get offended really quickly, and i also don't know why i never noticed they had a tak before, yesterday was the first time i saw it...weird...is there any other way to do this?

[Draal5]

I am thinking you could print off a couple of articles that would emphasize the size of tank etc. and give it to them saying I found these informative thought you would also. some thing like that of if you know of a good book give them that saying I had this and thought you might like it etc.

Then you have done all you can do for with out being to foward.

good luck

[Neervana]

thats good! a book doesn't sound too dangerous does it? - hmmm....or maybe i could just say i had these at home, and when i saw your fish, i thought you would like to read it through....?

[Star_Rider]

that would be my suggestion.. maybe an article or a book on keeping Oranda/goldfish etc.
I saw an article on keeping a fish pond for urban living. use large barrels, wooden framed ponds etc as ponds on decks and patios.
it we interesting as it addressed moving the fish in winter to aquariums. and respective sizes.

[Coler]

If you know these people well enough to advise them on how they should look after their pets, you probably know better than anyone else how best (whether ?) to broach the subject with them.

[petluvr]

OOOHHHH You are treading on thin ice... I understand your problem I once insulted an ENTIRE Hindu family when I said that I didn't care that much for Curry.....Needless to say I was asked to leave the table:) i think the book idea would be great. Just say saomething like "I never noticed your fish before and i had this book laying around and thought you would enjoy it, I know I did". Good luck :)

[Neervana]

to be honest, i don't really want to talk about the oranda with them because i'm worried i may offend them, but then if i don't do it, i won't be able to stop feeling guilty about it, so i'm not sure what to do. i think maybe i should just give them an article, not a book because then they might think i'm trying to educate them...

[jm1212]

OOOHHHH You are treading on thin ice... I understand your problem I once insulted an ENTIRE Hindu family when I said that I didn't care that much for Curry.....Needless to say I was asked to leave the table:) i think the book idea would be great. Just say saomething like "I never noticed your fish before and i had this book laying around and thought you would enjoy it, I know I did". Good luck :)
i think that is a little different...

[petluvr]

to be honest, i don't really want to talk about the oranda with them because i'm worried i may offend them, but then if i don't do it, i won't be able to stop feeling guilty about it, so i'm not sure what to do. i think maybe i should just give them an article, not a book because then they might think i'm trying to educate them...
Maybe you could "accidentally" leave a book at their house when you go for dinner?

[petluvr]

i think that is a little different...
Not really the Hindu are a very proud people.

[faun]

You could say you found a really cool website about fish they might be interested in and send them here to AC then they might realise that the fish needs more space.

[Neervana]

Maybe you could "accidentally" leave a book at their house when you go for dinner?

the thing is, that would not work because my friend always comes to pick me up when i go to his house...so...i can't bring the book with me...he would ask me why i'm taking it...i'm hindu, and if i go out, it's not usually by myself...so i dont think that would work... :(

[petluvr]

Do they have a computer? Maybe you could just put a bug in their ear by leaving a site about oranda care up on their monitor?

[Neervana]

You could say you found a really cool website about fish they might be interested in and send them here to AC then they might realise that the fish needs more space.

i was also thinking of that, but they aren't interested in fish, i think it's only because they probably got the oranda as a present or something that they still have him - and they would not take time out to go on a website to research about fish (as much as we all do, there are just some people who don't find that idea appealing i guess)

[Reefscape]

I may be just miss-understanding a few issues here, but, in this day and age, why is it so hard / wrong to just simply state your opinion to them and move on? How can someone, as you say are not interested in fish, get so offended by you just dropping into conversation that you think that fish would look more attractive in a larger tank?

Sorry Neervana, but i am failing to see what or how a person can be offended by that, regardless of what religeon they are. What size of fish is acceptable in what size aquarium is not a religeous aspect here..

Hence why i am struggling to understand why this is an issue....

[Neervana]

I may be just miss-understanding a few issues here, but, in this day and age, why is it so hard / wrong to just simply state your opinion to them and move on? How can someone, as you say are not interested in fish, get so offended by you just dropping into conversation that you think that fish would look more attractive in a larger tank?

Sorry Neervana, but i am failing to see what or how a person can be offended by that, regardless of what religeon they are. What size of fish is acceptable in what size aquarium is not a religeous aspect here..

Hence why i am struggling to understand why this is an issue....

i understand where you're coming from, but they might think i'm trying to insult them by accusing them of not looking after their pet properly and then there might be an argument. i am just looking for a way to say maybe he needs a better home without sounding like i'm trying to tell them what to do because they are so sensitive - that is why i'm thinking that to give them an article maybe a better idea...i just want to tell them to give him more space to swim around but i don't want to fall out with anyone :(

[Coler]

i understand where you're coming from, but they might think i'm trying to insult them by accusing them of not looking after their pet properly and then there might be an argument. i am just looking for a way to say maybe he needs a better home without sounding like i'm trying to tell them what to do because they are so sensitive - that is why i'm thinking that to give them an article maybe a better idea...i just want to tell them to give him more space to swim around but i don't want to fall out with anyone :(

a) tell them
b) unless they're the sort of people who will fall out with you over you telling them in which case, don't tell them.

[Neervana]

maybe i will just give them an article and then not say anything about it?

[Coler]

Well...if they were both proud and pretty stupid they might not realise what you were doing and therefore wouldn't take offence.

Honestly, you either have a good enough relationship with these people to give them advice concerning their pets, without them throwing you off their property, or ya don't...only you know.

[Neervana]

i have known them for over 10 years now - but i don't want to hurt their feelings (or risk hurting them)

[The Zigman]

Can you explain to your friend and maybe he can explain to his parents? Maybe suggest getting a second fish nad then obviouslt the 2 of them would need a bigger tank, like a 55, or a 72 bowfront or something...

[vanillarum]

The way I see it, it comes down to perhaps infringing on their sensitivities, or letting "Hulk" suffer in silence. What is the worst that could happen ? If you do nothing, Hulk continues to suffer. If you speak out, perhaps he will get some relief. If not, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I would have to say something. Good luck.

[Eupterus]

I'd just explain it in very simple terms.
Adult goldfish are 8-12"
A tank of 16" is too small for a 8-12 inch fish. If it's a standard five gal.

If they seem receptive to the idea of a larger tank or re-homing their goldfish, you can go from there such as referring them to craigslist, if not I'd just let it go.

[Draal5]

Guys its hard for us to understand her predicament. She has a cultural situation to deal with.

There are cultures out there that would be insulted by this not everyone thinks and act like us.

Just plain telling them is not an option for her period.

I know in the asian cultures if it comes for someone they believe to be their equal then there is no insult.

Is it the same way with Hindu's ?

If so is there some one who is more Americanized that you could use to pass on the information?

[Coler]

Hmmmm...perhaps we shall continue in GCC.

[judgemax]

Maybe if you have an extra ten gallon, you could offer it as a house gift, from you to them, for having you to dinner, and being such great friends over the years. You can simply buy a thank you card as well! Tell them, you didn't realize they had fish, and that you love fish, tell them about your tanks, and that you want to set hulk up in a new home as appreciation for all that they have done for you . That way, it is a gift,and you are offering services, to them as a thank you, they will feel obligated to accept it, and you get to do what needs done without having to insult them:)

If you can't afford( or don't have ) an empty tank, buy them a book about Their fish,and express enthusiastically how excited you are that they to like fish, and you just wanted to say thank you , for everything they have done:)

[catnipgal]

I know the 5 gallon tank sounds cruel, but the fish has lived years in it. What is the life span of that fish? If its life span is almost over with, then let it be, dont risk losing a friendship over a fish. Especially if the fish is at the end of its lifespan.

[SchizotypalVamp]

I understand about what you are saying. The day and age are different to different people, and simply having a chat with these people doesn't work like it does in the movies. I would suggest the gift route. If they ever see your house or your tanks, putz around an especially pretty one until they say at least oblagitorly that it is a nice tank. Then buy them a tank(I know, this sucks..), substrate, plastic plants, the works, and say you thought of how much they liked your tank and thought that this would be s wonderful present for them, and that as part of the present you would set it up for them. That would be my closest guess.

[Lady G]

Send him here!! after reading a bit and having a few of us tell him what he should do....well, maybe he will realize the right thing!

Just let him know things you have learned about fish, and tell him it would be so much better for the fish.

[Kashta]

...they might think i'm trying to insult them by accusing them of not looking after their pet properly and then there might be an argument. :(

But that's the point. They are NOT looking after their pet properly.

What would you say if they were putting their child in danger on a regular basis... instead of a fish? How would you approach discussing that or countless other (unrelated) matters with them where a potential for misunderstanding existed? The problem you need to resolve isn't what they need to know (that's obvious), but rather how say it tactfully enough that you won't offend or insult them. Surely, as someone who shares the same culture and beliefs, you can find a way to do this without offense?

If you give them a book or an article about caring for orandas... why would they even read it? As far as they know, they're already doing everything the proper way. And since the fish has survived this long, they'll just discount what the "author" had to say as that person's opinion.

What about this.... Don't point out what they are doing wrong or suggest in that they lack information or expertise on the subject. That would surely offend them. Instead, compliment them for taking such wonderful care of the fish under such adverse conditions. Tell them they have done a great job keeping the water clean enough, since there's so little of it. That sounds polite, honest, and respectful... which it is. It praises them and acknowledges the effort and concern they have shown for the well being of their pet. Maybe they'll ask.. what do you mean by "adverse" conditions?... or by so "little water?" And this gives you the opening that you're looking for.

Now, you're no longer in a position of offering unwanted advice to people who believe they already know it all... now, you're simply answering their questions. That's helpful, honest, and nonjudgemental. Use this as your opportunity to discuss the biological facts about this variety of fish. (And not your assessment of their fish keeping methods.) Compare this fish to others, such as small tropicals, that are kept in much larger containers. Talk about the fact that they expel a higher concentration of protein in their waste because it's not digested the same way other fish do. You could talk about the development of this breed compared to the original form as it exists in nature.... and even compare this to the cultivation of the hybrid tea roses and how different these are from uncultivated (wild/species) roses. That's yet another way to slip in how the digestive tract has evolved... which lets them know "why" the fish needs more water. There are many ways you can find to stimulate a person's interest in a subject if you know them and already share a common ground.

[petluvr]

I believe neervana will make the correct choice, leading her one step closer to nirvana....

[Neervana]

ok well, after reading everything all you lovely people all had to say, i kind of thought of another idea. basically i went into my LFS and got her gift vouchers and then i bought a thankyou card. i'm going over for dinner at my friend's place next week, so i thought if i just wrote the card, and then gave it to his mum, saying that i had no idea what to give her, then i thought since she has fish and she looks after him so well i was thinking she would like to come shopping with me and after we could "pop into" the LFS and she could buy some fish she likes! i already arranged with the owner in the LFS to tell her that because she's a first time customer she's getting a 50 gal tank LOL i have no idea if this is gonna work but it's worth a try. obviously if she thinks its free, she'll take it, right?...or maybe this is too obvious? anyway i said if she refuses, i'll have to take it later on because i've already paid for it. what do you guys think? do you think it will work?

[Reefscape]

I think you should be up front with the people, rather than use miss-direction to achieve your aim...sorry if thats a little harsh, but, thats just my opinion...

[Coler]

Well...its all very well intentioned and indeed generous (to buy a 50 Gallon tank for someone else's goldfish) so much kudos to you.

Did you try talking to your friend who is in this family about it ?

[petluvr]

I think these people whould count themselves lucky to have a friendsuch as yourself. You care enough about them to want to help them but don't want to hurt them in the process. You are a wonderful person who I thin has just moved one step closer to your own personal nirvana.:):):):)

[Que]

This isn't just a cultural issue. Who wants to be told they are not properly caring for a pet when they believe they are? Men in particular are sensitive to being told they are wrong. Men are also easily offended by someone offering help when none is being asked for.

I would not send them here to AC. If your friends see your posts here then you're bound to get some trouble.

Honesty IMO is the only way to go.
If you feel strongly enough about it then you will find an honest way to let them know that, despite it's healthy appearance, their fish is too big for the tank it's in.
If you want their friendship above your concern for the fish then say nothing.

Q

[Neervana]

i would try talking to my friend about it, but he's the type of guy who doesn't really care for animals, and particularly something like a goldfish. i just hope she will accept the tank, if she doesn't accept it, it doesn't matter, it will just be another tank for me to set up! i do care about the goldfish, i really do - but i care about how they feel aswell, that's why i just can't ignore the goldfish or ignore them. i mean i can't just ignore the golfish just because of their feelings, because then i know i won't want to go round his place again because i'll see his fish again if this problem is not solved. i'll try the vouchers and see what happens i guess...i'm getting worried about this...

[SchizotypalVamp]

I don't agree that you should have to choose between the fish and the people. I hope things work out!