Death of Cleaner Shrimp

[JoshOooooo]

I bought a cleaner shrimp that died after 2 days- Tank is cycled, in balance, 1 Damsel, 1 Maroon Clown, 12 Gallon Tank. Did NOT have heater, but temp stayed steady for several weeks at 80F, LFS said it was due to Temp flucations. Salinity at 24.5. Any Ideas>???

[ChilDawg]

I'd have some method of thermoregulation on a tank, but I'm gonna blame this one on the fish. The cleaner shrimp was probably seen as food by one or the other of them. Plus, there's not enough territorial room for two Damsels (Clowns are specialized Damsels) in a 12g tank.

When you say that it's cycled and in balance, can you give us some numbers, especially levels of copper? (As well as the standard NitrItes, NitrAtes, Ammonia, etc.)

[JoshOooooo]

As for Death By Fish, The clown is very non aggressive, even for a clown, and the damsel is rather mellow as well, I watched them interact for two days, no problems. Plus the shrimp wasn't damaged in anyway-Woke up in the morning Shrimp was alive and well, came back 5-6 hours later, it was laying on it's back like a dead insect. NHs+NH4 @ less then 0.25mg/l with NO-2 @ less then .03 mg/l. No idea on copper levels, nor nitrates (don't monitor them.) I did take a water sample back to the LFS who did all the tests so I can get a refund and said my water was fine (obviously in their best interests in making sure my water is good.)

Anyway life I said the only interaction I saw the damsel BLUE have with the shrimp was to "shake ya a**" and ask for a cleaning. I am thinking of giving away the Blue Damsel, but it is soo **** pretty and active.

[ChilDawg]

The guess would be that, if they thought your water levels were fine, they probably just sold you a bad cleaner...but get low-level ammonia and nitrate tests b/c that dying cleaner could have raised the levels for a bit...

[OrionGirl]

Invertebrates can be sensitive to sudden changes--how did you acclimate it to your tank?

Very few fish that are not crustacean eaters will go after a cleaner. Triggers and eels are the immediate suspects, but with proper introduction, even this will work--though it is far better to introduce the shrimp first. While damsels are very aggressive, they do not usually go after crustaceans--they usually target fish, especially other grazers. Clowns will seldom harrass non-specific fish, other than to chase them away from their chosen 'host', even if that's just a shell.

[mogurnda]

Since it happened so rapidly after introduction, I'd say it was probably a shrimp that was already stressed at the LFS, that succumbed after introduction to the tank. Although they have survived a lot of mishaps in my hands, shrimp have a reputation for faring poorly with rapid changes.

Just to be sure: it was a dead shrimp and not a shed exoskeleton, right?

[JoshOooooo]

Def. a dead shrimp. I wondering how important it is to have similar salinity. Also what is the best way to introduce a shrimp into my mini reef?

[mogurnda]

Although some go for the drip method, I just do the "in the bag" system. Never a problem with dozens of corals, arthropods and a clam. Let the bag float for 20-30 min, closed. That's especially important if they have been in a bag for a prolonged period. Open, add about 1/3 of the bag volume of your tank water, wait 15 min. If you turn the mouth of the bag down several times, it will hold air and float. Repeat a few times. You may have to empty some water from the bag to the sink if it is filling too much. After the final change, remove animal from bag and place in tank.

I have seen people describe rather heroic, multi-hour drip procedures, but this is the procedure I have used, and always seems to be recommended by the online suppliers I have used.

But, you know, I have trouble believing that a shrimp would wait a few days to keel over from poor acclimation.

Another possibility that is often mentioned is copper. If the fish have ever been treated with copper in the tank, it will affect any inverts you put in. By the way, what else is in there besides the fish?

[BrianH]

I use the bag method, as described above by morgunda, for most critters(fish, corals, clams, snails). But I drip acclimate both shrimp & starfish. While starfish are one of the most sensitive creatures to acclimate(usually between 2 - 5 hrs. drip), IMHO shrimp can also be pretty sensitive. I usually drip acclimate shrimp for 30-60 minutes and I haven't lost any to poor acclimation yet.

Brian

[JoshOooooo]

Besides the fish, 10 pounds live rock, mushroom coral and brown button polyps. I guess I will go with Temp as there has never been any copper in my tank and it def. wasn't eaten or killed by the damsel and my readings are clear.. Oh well now I have ANOTHER problem, the clown I bought four days ago seems to have white spots, maybe ick? Won't eat that much, but still looks healthy, isn't gasping for air, swims around ok. Here is a pic.

[mogurnda]

Yep, you have Cryptocaryon. Have you got a bare tank you can treat in? Hard to cure in a reef tank.

[kreblak]

Oh yeah, you have something all right. Good picture, you really got a close up of the fish and it's affliction. As far as what that is, it could definitely be Ich, but the "flecked" nature of the white spots bothers me. That MIGHT be Velvet (aka Oodinium and Coral reef Disease). I emphasize might because you really don't see velvet as much as you do Ich.

Both are treated the same way, however. If you have a QT, use it now. Treat that fish soon. An outbreak of Ich that profound can kill if not treated. Copper works very well, as does NO-ICH marine from www.drsfostersmith.com I have used NO-ICH with great success in my show tank, as it is reef safe. Obviously, don't use copper in your show tank.

[kreblak]

Oh, one other thing I should mention. Your clown has some fin damage on his right pectoral fin. This may be due to agression from the damsel. This may also be the reason the clown has fallen ill. Harassement form other fish is a huge source of stress in fish, and can cause them to become sick.

[JoshOooooo]

I just got sold some GREENEX which claims to kill Ick and is invert safe and will not affect biolofical filter. Is this true. I do NOT have acess to a hospital tank right now, so my option is to use GREENEX, or fresh water dip with 20% water change every day (I use real Seawater shipped in from Catalina.) Ideas?

[kreblak]

I've never heard of Greenex. What is the active ingredient? If it is formulin based, I wouldn't use it in a reef tank. A FW dip will help unattach white spots on your fish, but can be very stressful on them. Water changes aren't going to help much against Ich. You are dealing with a parasite that reproduces rapidly, has a complex four stage life cycle, and is vulnerable to treatment only during the first 18 hours of it's life.

I would recommend getting a 5 or 10 gallon tank (readily available and cheap), putting seawater only in it, and quarantining the clown there. Treat with whatever you believe works best, and perform daily water changes. Once the fish recovers, you may add him back to you main tank.

[JoshOooooo]

Hmmm the ing. are Malachite Green and Quinine Hydrochloride. I have been closely montoring the damsel, and they don't really bother eachother at all, infact they bed down together at night (strange right???) I am more then ready to ship the damsel back to the store but I'm not so sure the fin damage wasn't already there. I see no nipping by either fish. As for the QT tank, I really can't afford even a ten gallon- as I will still have to get at least a PH, Heater and others- How about a fresh water dip with NO-ICH or the Greenex with a 20% water change?

[kreblak]

The problem with using medication is that it is only effective during a brief part of Ich's life cycle.

Ich begins it's life as a free swimming, ciliated, protozoan. From the time it hatches it has about 18 hours to find a host fish or die trying. This is the only time during it's life cycle when it is vulnerable to medication.

Once the protozoan finds a host, it attaches and begins leeching nutrients from the fish. Once it has sufficiently fed, it encysts, forming the characteristic white spot. It will remain this way for several days, maturing. Once it has matured, it drops off the fish and begins dividing into 400-600 new protozoans. The cyst then ruptures, releasing the free swimmers into the water, who then have 18 hours to find a host... etc.

Because of this life cycle, you must treat for Ich over an extended period of time. It is a pain in the a$$, but to wipe out Ich, not even one protozoa may survive. If one of those little buggers gets through, you have 600 more in a week. The good news is that if you can even the odds, you fish's immune systems will cope with the parasite and fight it off. If a QT isn't an option, try NO-ICH marine. It is $17.99 plus S&H, and one liter was enough to treat my 46 gallon tank for a month. I continued treating for another month, just to be sure that the Ich was gone 100%. Another option is to feed your fish frozen food which has been soaked in garlic juice. Garlic seems to boost the fishes' immune systems, and will also ward off vampires.

[JoshOooooo]

Sweet-well thanks for the advice-About.com had decent things to say about Greenex

"Greenex by Aquatronics is a combination of malachite green and quinine hydrochloride, and has given us excellent results in a couple of days. We generally treat for a five to six day period, following the product dosage instructions. Greenex is invert (meaning crustacean) safe and does not weaken or kill your biological filter base. When we have used Greenex in our invert tank, with some live rock in it, it does not seem to harm the live rock. However, we have had reports from some people that malachite green may harm certain corals, so it may not be completely reef safe. If you decide to treat your main tank, the down side of Greenex is that it will turn any silicone, air tubes or anything that it touches blue, except the fish. Once again, using a QT is a good idea. It is suggested to remove any delicate inverts or corals from the tank and place them in a separate aquarium. "

At the same time this dude had THIS to say

"I purchased this product in 8/01 to cure marine ich on my purple tang. The manufacturer states that this product is invertebrate- and coral-safe, and will not harm the biological filter, when used as directed. I used the product as directed. The next day, my longnose hawkfish was dead, two other fish were acting "twitchy", and a red-legged hermit had died. My mushrooms were also curling up at the edges. Prompt addition of a container of activated carbon probably saved my tank from complete devastation. I do NOT recommend this product for control of ich in a reef tank.
As a side note, this product DID seem to eliminate a flatworm infestation that had been a nuisance."

So at this time I am wary of introducing this to my tank- I will give my clown a fresh water dip, and see about setting up a QT (maybe a 5 gallon. ANy other adivce

[kreblak]

Sounds like a good plan. If Greenex killed half someone's tank, then I wouldn't use it in yours!