Help! Birthday party take-home fish out of control!

[kelleyincolorad]

Hello again....some of you may remember my earlier posts about our little take-home birthday party goldfish:) Since then, we've upgraded to a large tank and added two fancy goldfish. The orignal fish is becoming a problem, though! First of all, he's HUGE. This fish has tripled in size. He's almost as big as the fancy goldfish! (I keep saying "he" simply because my kids refer to "him" as Nemo). Anyway, Nemo has become the bully and swims around chasing off the other fish. Anytime a person comes near the tank this fish goes nuts and attempts to "Chew??" on the other fish's fins. If I could reach in the tank and thunk him on the head, I would:) The other fish look fine...no chewed fins and all that...should I worry?? Am I just being an overprotective parent? How darned big can we expect this 12 cent feeder fish to get?!

ps---the Mela-fix worked beautifally in restoring the fins of one fancy goldfish--took about three weeks total--thanks to those who helped me with that problem last month!

Kelley in Colorado

[Harry Tolen]

What size tank are you keeping these fish in now? Also, how often do you change the water and what kind of filtration are you using? All of those factors could be affecting your fish's behavior.

[TKOS]

Well "feeder" cheap goldfish are pretty much the same as Koi. So you can expect that given adequate room and a good environment they can easily get to 12-18 inches in size. Most goldfish kept in tanks never get that big htough as the tank will stunt their growth. That is why people say that goldfish need at least 30 gallons per fish. Plus they create massive amounts of waste. As for the anger of the fish, what else do you keep in the tank for decorations and what not. Often line of sight blocks can help calm down a tank. So a lot of fake plants might help the situation.

Some fish do chase each other around though and unless you see the stress really hurting one fish I would just let it go. IF the fish look really stressed out or injured then you might have to think about either getting a separate tank or else a plastic divider to section off the tank.

[demon_surfer]

I think I remeber trying to help you with the original proble..or reading the post on it..something like that! glad to see it worked out for you.

for the fin nipping, I wouldnt worry about it unless there is visible damage on the fancy goldfish. however it is a fairly common problem that the fancy goldfish get their fins nipped my their more common cousins that can move faster and easier.

And TKOS is correct, all the goldfish will eventually get pretty big. I have seen some fancys that look like softballs with fins glued on!

[kelleyincolorad]

They are in a 10 gallon tank with a Whisper filtration system and air stone. It all came in one tidy package. I have changed the water once a week because we were using the Mela-fix stuff...I'll probably continue that because of water conditions here and the ammonia level. I test the water once a week and so far, so good....

They have plants and one of those colored tunnel deals to play around in.

I guess I just notice the "rude" behavior whenever we stand directly in front of the tank. They all start to go nuts and then Nemo chases them away---I should maybe hide around the corner and make sure he's not being the bully when they don't think they're getting fed?!:D

I'd rather not have to get a larger tank right now...no room for it. I'm hoping that the tank will stunt his growth...sound mean, but he's not paying the bills.

[TKOS]

Stunted growth does also mean a stunted life span. Goldfish can live as long as 20 years or more. In a 10 gallon probably 2 years.

[aquariumfishguy]

I thought when you said you upgraded tanks you was talking about a 30-50 gallon tank...boy was I wrong!! :eek:

A 10 gallon isn't even big enough for ONE goldfish. IME, these fish can grow as large (long) as a 10 gallon tank! They should have a minimum of 20 gallons a piece! :eek:

For more reasons goldfish NEED a large tank, go to: http://www.animalnetwork.com/aquafish/reference/p9.asp

To read up on goldfish at my website, go to: www.care4fish.com

[Harry Tolen]

Well, I doubt that running out and buying a 60 gallon tank to house a birthday-party goldfish is going to happen, at least right away, so let's try and make some other constructive suggestions.

First, keep up with the water changes. 50-60% once per week will help.

Second, think about adding a second filter. It adds extra bio-filtration capacity, the additional water movement can't hurt, and you have a backup if something goes wrong. The on-line retailers (like Drs. Foster and Smith) sell these pretty inexpensively...my personal recommendation would be an Aquaclear 300, because if you ever get a larger tank it will be the perfect size.

And finally, speaking of a larger tank, don't stress about it for now. However, if you see a 29-gallon tank (used) for sale in the paper cheap, you might consider that. You should be able to pick one up for about $30, and it will give your goldfish a decent-sized home for a while.

Finally, unless fins start getting chewed, don't worry about the chasing. It is probably a function of the small tank size and excitement at a possible feeding time, but if no one is getting hurt don't worry about it until you can do something about it.

Good luck and keep us posted on how things go.

[kelleyincolorad]

huh...interesting responses there. I'm sorry if I upset anyone with my mere 10 gallon tank:) but this is why I'm posting on the "newbie" area. The guys at Petsmart don't bother telling you that the itty bitty cute goldfish can become large enough to scare the dog. But...I do believe we'll be keeping the fish as we've become attached to the little boogers.

I have a friend who is giving away a 20 gallon show tank---is this something I should consider taking off his hands? I'm guessing by "show" this means it's not one of those tall tanks? Yep, I'm still new at this...

I keep checking the sale ads-no luck so far, but I will continue searching if the above mentioned tank isn't something I should mess with.

The filtration thing, though...the one we have seems quite forceful--the fish hit a certain spot in the tank and they suddenly swim tilted. I actually thought I was being harsh with the system we have now, but I guess not! How often should I be changing the charcoal filter? I've had several different times quoted by various pet store folk and I'd like to get good advice on this one.

[TKOS]

Yes, take the 20 gallon for now. Take all of the stuff in your current tank and place it in the new tank and it will help you avoid too big of ammonia and nitrite spikes.

As for the filter you may have enough "current" but the problem with smaller filters is that they do not hold a lot of media. The media is what holds all the good bacteria, so the more media the more bacteria, the cleaner the tank will stay. What you can do is buy another small filter (they are really cheap at places like walmart) and then use both at the same time. If the fish are healthy they will do fine. Just give them hiding spots (rocks, driftwood, castles etc..) where they can rest.

I doubt you will be able to get the goldfish up to 18 inches, but it is nice to know about the fish you have. The bigger the tank the healthier your fish will be and this will mean that they will live better lives. Most fish in aquariums don't reach their full potential but it is up to us to give them the greatest chance at survival and a thriving life as possible.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy your fish. There are lots of goldfish resources around the internet. Use them and you will be surprised at all of the great information you can learn. When in doubt about the information check with places liek this where there is bound to be someone who knows what is going on.

[Harry Tolen]

If the 20 is free, and it has a bigger "footprint" than your 10, then take it. What are the dimensions? Otherwise, wait for the 29 or larger, and save yourself yet another tank installation.

Thanks, by the way, to care enough to keep coming back here for advice.

[demon_surfer]

take the free tank and do as TKOS said and move everything over that will help get the new tank going.


does it come with a filter? if it does run it AND the one you have on your current tank.

[aquariumfishguy]

TKOS, I believe this person said this was a "feeder fish"...

...that being the case, this fish most certainly can reach 12-16 inches easily! :D

All of my grown goldfish are at least 12 inches long and these are feeder fish I am refering to. My fancy goldfish reach 8-10 inches easily and are still growing. If you get the 20, thats better than the 10 but you will probably want more than one goldfish in the tank which leads to getting a larger (better) tank.

I hope you keep coming back to get more info, after all...you do better when you know better, right? ;)

[aquariumfishguy]

The stunting of growth depends on (just as you said) how long the fish is in those conditions. If the fish is only 1 year old, he/she may grow to the full potential. Some fish who have lived in a bowl for 5 years can grow afterwards so it just depends. Either the case, I would recommend moving the fish to a larger tank ASAP. You might have already stunted his growth to a degree but if he isn't too old, he will probably be fine.

[kelleyincolorad]

First off, thank you all very much for the wonderful advice you've given me. You all make sense, and are consistent, whereas the pet store folk have confused the crud out of me on more than one occasion.

So, this is what I'm doing thanks to you all...I'm getting that free 20 gallon show tank (still don't know dimensions, just that it's longer instead of higher). I'm getting another filter to run with the current one (you all have taught me the ways of bacteria!) and I'm going to add more rocks and whatnot for the fish to hang out under.

I wish I knew the age of the fish..but the turnover in the fish dept at Pets Mart is crazy and I've yet to find the same person there twice. I will visit them anyway in hopes that someone knows something about the fish, though..but I'm not counting on it.

A larger tank will happen--I realized my biggest problem is actually a wall out of direct sunlight that I can stick the tank on! I'm guessing the advice I've been given on keeping them out of direct sunlight because it speeds up algae growth is accurate?

Okay, so when I move these here fishies to the new 20 gallon tank, I'll be back to find out what sort of SMALL fish can go in the old 10 gallon!

In the meantime, I'll be checking out the care4fish site, along with the other sites recommended..and of course, perusing the posts on all of the boards here..this is truly a great place to learn about fish! Thanks again, Kelley in Colorado (snow already!!!)

[TKOS]

Don't forget that unlike goldfish, most of the other fish available are tropical so make sure to have a heater for the tank (the 10 gallon). And there are any number of options available for smaller fish choices, but you just have to make sure to not overstock. If you want advice on how many fish you can safely add to a 10 gallon tank I would suggest going to the petstore and writting down the names of a few fish that look good to you. Then you can ask here again about how many and what other fish could be added to the mix. Good luck.

[aquariumfishguy]

I would have a heater for the goldfish too because they need a steady temp just as tropical fish do...only they need slightly lower temperatures to allow for better oxygen exchange at the surface.

I am fairly sure you said you have a feeder fish and if thats the case, I would keep the water at 70 degrees...72 max. IF and when you get fancy goldfish, they prefer temps at or around 74 degrees. This helps them better diguest their foods because as you might know, they have a hard time processing their food due to a lack of a true "stomach"...not to mention all the swim bladder problems they get.

ANYWAY-------you dont have to worry about that for a while LOL just thought I would add that! :o

[kelleyincolorad]

I had forgotten to mention that I do have a heater already...but the pet store folks said to keep it at 76 degrees! I do have two fancy goldfish, plus our dear feeder fish (I wish I knew what the heck Nemo really is!) in there. We have kept it at a steady 76 since we brought home the fancy fish. It seems I should knock that down a couple of degrees according to the replies here!?

I'll do just what you all said- regarding the 10 gallon and what sort of fish to stick in it. My husband wants a tank of little colorful fish (he has no idea what they're called but remembers them from childhood), so I'll go get the names of things and come back to ask you all about them.

Again, thanks so much for your patience and great advice!

Kelley in Colorado

[demon_surfer]

instead of a large tank have you considered sending out your faithful ole hubby to dig you a pond for the goldfish? :D

of course thats a whole diffrent kettle of fish but goldfish+ pond just always seems right. You could even make one indoors with some good wood and a liner. (I plan on doing this as soon as I have room)

as to the sunlight. it Does help the algae grow. however if you cant find a wall with out sunlight on it, dont despair. It just means that the tank needs to be kept extra clean. An extra filter and water changes twice a week instead of once a week to keep the water clean. OR pack the tank with good, tough, fast growing plants and the algae should never get a foot hold.

its great to hear you are ready to go that extra mile for your fish. most people who we tell this too whine a bit then stop posting!

HtH

[kelleyincolorad]

Well, I have to admit that I was pretty upset with the birthday party folks who gave us the darned fish in the first place...I mean, how cruel is that? You just know most of those little suckers got flushed! Anyway, since then I've learned a lot and have grown to really enjoy being a fish owner.

Now about this pond idea....I cannot imagine how this would work living in Colorado. Right now the nights get down to 25-30 degrees and we're about to enter days of mid 60's. We're expecting a very cold winter..so they say..lots of snow and bitter cold temps. How the heck does a pond work when you live in a place like this?!

Indoors? As cool as that would be, my kids and dogs would be in it constantly, not to mention there's just no place to put one. We're busily gutting the interior of our house right now, and finding ourselves rapidly running out of space as it is.

but- if you know a way a pond can work in Colorado, then please let me know!

Kelley..in Colorado....

[TKOS]

You would need to make it pretty deep and then run some sort of pump all winter long to make sure it didn't freeze over. For Colorado (as for most of Eastern Canada) outdoor ponds during the winter are pretty much a no go. Most people bring their fish in over the winter, possibly in a kiddy pool or something. But with dogs and kids that might not be a good idea.

[demon_surfer]

Goldfish can do low temperatures pretty well. I am by no means an expert but most people say if you make the pond deep, and use a heater to keep a hole in the ice and have lots of air pumps going the fish should make it. the goldfish sites the others have given you should have some info on them!

[Harry Tolen]

Let's be clear: the goldfish will do just fine in the 20 for this winter. Ponds and aquaparks can wait until spring. An extra HOB filter, however, won't hurt at all, even now.

Regarding the identity of Nemo: I am only aware of two species of fish that are referred to as "feeders". One is the common goldfish, which gets to 12" or so inches under the proper circumstances as mentioned. The other is called a "rosy red", which is a color morph of the fathead minnow, and only gets to be 4" long. It would be interesting to know which you have.

In either of the above cases, to avoid temperature fluctuation, set your heater at the low end of your household thermal range.

[kelleyincolorad]

Nemo seems to be a Common Goldfish, according to pictures of similar fish I have found via the internet. As he gets bigger, he gets more colorful- especially his tail. He's about an inch and a half long, I'm guessing. The two fancy goldfish are closer to two inches long. He's gaining on them quickly.

I found a really good site about outdoor ponds and what the heck to do in the winter, so I'll be checking that out, but in the meantime, the little dudes are going to have to deal with the 20 gallon (to be switched to this coming weekend). I can imagine my border collie would find an indoor pond a little to tempting and those poor fish would become a toy!:(...not good.

I found an actual fish store not too far away! Amazing..I'm off to check them out to see what they're like price-wise, etc...hope it's a good find!

Kelley in Colorado

[demon_surfer]

she has the first symptoms...


we can expect an out break of tanks at her house any time now..




:D :D

[kelleyincolorad]

I think you're right...I spent 45 minutes simply choosing a new rock for them to hang out under.

I'll be back with more questions once I get these guys into their new 20 gallon tank!

Thanks again, Kelley in Colorado