Newbie with Cichlids in 55gal cycling question??

[rossman901]

Alright first here are the specifics of my tank. It is about 10 years old or so and I purchased it from a co-worker. The gravel is also old and came with the tank but i thoroughly rinsed it in a cauldron with tap water. It is a 55 gallon with a Penguin Marineland Biowheel 350 which I just bought and Tetra Tech ap200 air pump which also came with the tank.. It has a few plastic decorations like a building and buddha, and a few fake plants all of which i rinsed well with fresh tapwater only before I placed them in the tank. I had it up and and running for about a week and then took my water to the local fish store. They tested it and said it was fine and I bought 3 cichlids. 1 Electric Blue Ahli, 1 Bumble Bee Cichlid, and 1 African Cichlid all of which were from the assorted african cichlid tank. I am feeding them Extreme Aquatic Foods Cichlid Diet pellets. They told me to put them in there and then do a water change within a week. Up until today I changed the water only once. My friend who is also on this forum (BigDylan420) came over today and tested my water. This is what it read:
pH - 7.4
Ammonia - 2.0ppm
Nitrate - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm

He said that the tank wasn't cycled and I may need to do several water changes. So we did 1 50% water change. I am using API stress Coat to treat the water. The LFS suggested I also add Seachem Stability New Tank Stabalization System fluid. My friend also suggested I add some aquarium salt but he only added enough for half the tank because he didnt wanna over do it. He added that because he said one of the cichlids had a bit of fin rot developing. So that is all I can think of for now. My main question is how often should I test and change the water and what are the ideal readings for a properly "cycled" tank??

[Rbishop]

Your tank is not cycled.

Do daily 50% water changes...when ever ammonia or nitrites are not below .25 ppm.

You need a good liquid test ki of your own.

You do not need the salt.

[msjinkzd]

I would test your water at least 2x a day right now and change as much water as needed to keep the ammonia and nitrite as close to 0 as possible. AMmonia and nitrite are very very toxic to your fish. I wouldn't go crazy with the chemicals, a good quality water conditioner (most recommend Prime) will do it. Best of luck and keep up on those water changes!

edit: here is the sticky on cycling, a good read for a new tank owner : http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84598

Also, its likely keeping your water quality perfect will be of more help to the fin rot than the salt.

[Lupin]

Test daily and do water changes until ammonia and nitrites remain at zero considering you have fish in your tank. Your friend is correct in saying your tank is not cycled. You really have to add fish only when ammonia and nitrites are zero whereas nitrates do not exceed 40 ppm as ammonia and nitrites are toxic to the fish.

The only chemical I'd put in the tank is dechlorinator, nothing else.

:welcome: to AC!

[Hooked Newbie]

:iagree: and 75% water changes would probably be better IMO.

[rossman901]

Thanks guys. The **** fish store told me the water was ready and I didn't test on my own. Will keep you posted on results.

[msjinkzd]

Best of luck, when in doubt, change more water. It can only help your fish in a cycling tank.

[DAVIDFBT]

They said the water was fine because the water had no ammonia source, therefore, no way to start a cycle. Don't blame the fish store.

[robbob2112]

If your friend has a freshwater tank, ask him for some of his filter media or a double handful of gravel from his tank. You can safely remove about half the media from a filter and replace it with new and not impact his tank.

Put either or both near the intake to your filter, or in your filter if you have the same type as he has, and you can shorten your cycle time by several weeks and make your fish a lot happier. If you don't want to mix his gravel in, put it in a net like you use inside a canister filter (costs $3 at the petsmart).

[CaitxSith]

If you want, you can try some Biospira or bacterial additive to make the process go by slightly faster...


however, it's arguable on whether they actually help or not. I don't think you have anything to lose, so you might as well try.

[DAVIDFBT]

You have money to lose. :)

[CaitxSith]

You have money to lose. :)

Well, minus that...

It seems like you can't get anything for free in today's world :headshake2:

What happened to candy stores selling gum for a penny? It actually made finding coins on the sidewalk worth something!

...but I digress.

[nikkilugi]

If you want, you can try some Biospira or bacterial additive to make the process go by slightly faster...


however, it's arguable on whether they actually help or not. I don't think you have anything to lose, so you might as well try.

We have had great luck with Bio-Spira and also Super Bac both. It is hard to find either in the LFS stores around here though. The products can be a bit expensive but we lost absolutely no fish when we used either of these products in our 55 gallon and our 20 gallon.

[BigDylan420]

Whats up guys I was wondering about the salt but I knew it couldnt really hurt. I have an aquaclear filter in my tank. I was wondering about giving him some of the bio -rocks or whatever they are properly called out of my filter. I guess I could give him some of those and some of my rocks. I have also helped another one of my friends set up a 25gal freshwater tank. I gave him a handfull of gravel and it really seemed to help his tank. I have had lots of fry so I gave him some of those too. So thanks to you all on this forum I have now helped 2 of my friends properly get thyre tanks going.

[robbob2112]

Whats up guys I was wondering about the salt but I knew it couldnt really hurt.

Giving your friend part of your media and rocks is giving him a seed culture of the various kinds of niter bactieria. Makes things much quicker than waiting on them to develop naturally and is what is supposed to be in the bottles of stuff to cycle a tank. It needs oxygen to live, so most of the time those bottles have nothing useful by the time they sit on the shelf. The downside to sharing filter media (make sure you transport it in a ziplock with your tank water in it to keep it alive) is you are also sharing bad stuff in your tank if you have any.


The only reason to add cichlid salt to this tank would be to buffer the water. Meaning to stabilize the PH and make the water harder. I'm not a cichlid expert (yet) as I just started my own first cichlid tank, but my reading and research indicates that the african cichlids like very hard water. And I know from several years of keeping planted tanks that PH fluctuation are bad juju. In my tank I am using a crushed coral substrate that took my PH from 7.6 out of the tap to 8.0 and raised my KH way up. Haven't gotten out the liquid test kit to see exactly how much, but the test strips show it just about doubled.

If you do decide to use salt, this is a mix I found when researching that is similiar to what you buy in the store, but much cheaper made at home. I don't recall where I got it, or I would give credit.

A common Rift Valley salt mix is as follows. Per 5 gallons/20 litres:
1 teaspoon baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)
1 tablespoon Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate)
1 teaspoon marine salt mix (sodium chloride + trace elements)

Robert

[robbob2112]

And apparently the last half of my previous post is invisible and I can't edit it anymore... TinyMCE (the message editor being used) is such fun sometimes...


The only reason to add cichlid salt to this tank would be to buffer the water. Meaning to stabilize the PH and make the water harder. I'm not a cichlid expert (yet) as I just started my own first cichlid tank, but my reading and research indicates that the african cichlids like very hard water. And I know from several years of keeping planted tanks that PH fluctuation are bad juju. In my tank I am using a crushed coral substrate that took my PH from 7.6 out of the tap to 8.0 and raised my KH way up. Haven't gotten out the liquid test kit to see exactly how much, but the test strips show it just about doubled.

If you do decide to use salt, this is a mix I found when researching that is similiar to what you buy in the store, but much cheaper made at home. I don't recall where I got it, or I would give credit.

A common Rift Valley salt mix is as follows. Per 5 gallons/20 litres:
1 teaspoon baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)
1 tablespoon Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate)
1 teaspoon marine salt mix (sodium chloride + trace elements)

Robert

[BigDylan420]

I just suggested he add the salt to help with the fin rot that was developing on two of his cichlids. One didnt have any spots on it just the beginnings of fin rot as there were a few spines missing the flesh in between. The other however had a couple of small spots at the base of its fin. I didnt even add enough to treat the whole tank as suggested just enough for half. Plus if you all suggest he doesnt need it he doesnt have to add it next time he changes the water. So maybe I was wrong I just know that in my tank I add it rarely whenever I see any stressed out fish with the beginnings of fin rot and it really seems to help it almost instantly eliminates it.

[robbob2112]

Salt promotes the slime coat to develop which helps prevent bacteria from getting into any sores or other injuries. Na ions irritate the skin and cause a slime coate to form, CL ions bond with the receptors in the gills more readily than NH4 does, which is why "salt" is listed as being beneficial to fish.

Finrot is almost always a sign of bad water quality, in his case uncycled tank.

I'd test the GH and KH in the tank and if the GH/KH is to low either add crushed coral to the substrate, or do something like the salt mix above. GH should be 7 or higher and KH should be 10 or higher for most African cichlids. The baking soda raises the KH, the Epsom salt raises the GH, the marine salt raises both a little bit along with adding Na and CL ions to the water.

Downsides when doing water changes:

Crushed coral, a large water change causes the PH to drop and come back up gradual. So requires smaller, but more frequent changes.

Salt mix, you have to have it on hand and mix it OUTSIDE the tank in proportionate amounts to what you remove.

Robert

[rossman901]

i did another water change last night and the ammonia levels went down between .5 and .25. im going to do another today when i get home from work..........after i test whats in the as we speak. ill post the results after i get done testing. and to clarify things, the salt wasnt specified for cichlids, it was just api aquarium salt. one question that i still have is.....can doing too many water changes hurt my fish??? and should i stilil be using the stresscoat, salt, or the bottle of stability that i bought??? sorry for being such a newb, just dont want my kids to die. :headbang2:

[rossman901]

call me stupid, but what is gh and kh???

[Star_Rider]

call me stupid, but what is gh and kh???

gh=general hardness
kh = carbonate hardness

[rossman901]

ah hah, thank you very much.

[robbob2112]

GH - General Hardness (measure of dissolved minerals)
KH - Carbonated hardness (generally a measure of calcium carbonate dissolved)
NH4 - Ammonia (fish waste/rotted food from overfeeding)
NO2 - Nitrite (second stage of cycling)
NO3 - Nitrate (end result of cycling)
NaCl - salt (you prolly knew this one)

From here... I'd recommend:
1. Get filter media/gravel from your friend in there... this gets your bacteria going good.

2. Continue the water changes and use something to neutralize chlorine in tap water... I use 'Prime', but there are other products out there that work just as well.
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Prime.html

Frequent water changes will slow down the cycle, but prevent damage to your babies... so with what you have now I'd say they are a must.

Here is a really good article explaining what you are going for with "cycling" a tank.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwestcycling.htm

The cycle is:
NH4 + NH3 + bacteria => NO2 + bacteria => NO3

Once you get to NO3 you have to remove that with water changes or lots of plants.


3. Skip the salt unless you have tested you GH/KH and want to add it for buffering...Then use a cichlid salt of some sort... But later.. The generic API Aquarium salt is just straight NaCl and pretty useless unless you are trying to treat ICH with salt and heat method.

4. Stability is bacteria in a bottle, I have never used, prolly won't hurt, but I doubt it will help a lot.

5. Stress coat is a few different things... some people like it, some people don't... I'd have to come down on the side of the less stuff you add to your water, the simpler it is and the less that can go wrong.


Robert

[KarlTh]

Can't quite see the wisdom of using NaCl in an African Cichlid salt mix. It's hard water they want, not brine. Epsom salts, yes, but you need some calcium salts in there as well. Most tap water already has enough sodium and especially chloride.

[Rbishop]

Can't quite see the wisdom of using NaCl in an African Cichlid salt mix. It's hard water they want, not brine. Epsom salts, yes, but you need some calcium salts in there as well. Most tap water already has enough sodium and especially chloride.

:iagree:

[rossman901]

ive noticed a signifiant drop in ammonia since the first water change my friend and i did. i will call him tomorrow to get some of his media and some of his rock as this will speed the process up. i did one 75% water change today, went to ride my motorcycle and came back, and the ammonia was still around 0.25 on the api test kit. im going to continue the water changes until it drops to 0, at the rate of two water changes per day. ph seems a lil low, round 7.2 but maybe thats from the constant changes??? i dont know. the fins look to be ok on my fish, but not perfect. i will try something new if the salt isnt helping. i just want my babies to be happy, as i paid a lot for them and i feel bad. never, and i mean never take advice from some stupid pet store(in this case, someone i thought would steer me in the right direction). i learned my lesson, and i thought it was their fault, when it was really mine. so if anyone has any tips for me, keep them coming. thanks for all your help.

[rossman901]

Can't quite see the wisdom of using NaCl in an African Cichlid salt mix. It's hard water they want, not brine. Epsom salts, yes, but you need some calcium salts in there as well. Most tap water already has enough sodium and especially chloride.

so, what your suggesting is i use this on my next worter change??? if so, what ammount???

[Coler]

I'd say don't bother with any additives of this nature (yes I do keep africans)...more trouble than they're worth, and unnecessary for healthy fish.

[rossman901]

well, im getting mixed reactions, but i take it dont use anything but stress coat when doing the water changes from now on. thanks guys

[rossman901]

by the way, the fish seemed much happier and alot more active. i thought i was gonna lose my electric blue for a second. gonna keep going down the water change path.

[robbob2112]

Since stress coat is what you are using to nutralize the chlorine that is all I would put in at this point.

[KarlTh]

so, what your suggesting is i use this on my next worter change??? if so, what ammount???

What is your current GH?

[rossman901]

i have no idea. how do you measure that???

[robbob2112]

With a test kit... You can use the 5 test strips and they usually have GH/KH tests on them... this gives you a rough estimate. In general liquid test kits are more accurate, but things like prime or stress coat can cause them to be off when testing for nitrates/nitrites/ammonia...

My test strips indicate my water at 300ppm GH and between 150 and 300ppm KH... but there are no graduations in between, so it is just a guess. The two different test strips indicate my nitrate at 20ppm, but the liquid kit indicates off the scale because of the prime.

[KarlTh]

i have no idea. how do you measure that???

With a GH test kit. After the nitrogen compounds, it's the most important thing to know about your water.

[DAVIDFBT]

API GH/KH test kits are about 6 dollars if you price-match them. API test kits are the preffered test kits for many aquarists.

[fresh_fish]

you can get the API master and GH/KH kits on drsfostersmith.com for $20 before shipping, best current deal i could find.

[rossman901]

i have a question. should i be vaccuming my gravel when i do changes or not????? ive read all around, some say yes and some say no.

[rossman901]

ne1????

[noodles62]

I do, although I have sand in my tank, so the fish waste stays on top. If you do not overfeed you should not have to do a deep vac very often, but I would still suggest to do a weekly vac w/ your water changes......any leftover food decaying in the gravel can cause an ammonia spike.....

[DrNo]

I would do a superficial vacuuming of the substrate each time you do your water change. This will help keep the amount of decaying matter down and help reduce your ammonia levels. By the way, not sure if it has been mentioned in the thread yet but you should significantly decrease your feeding volume for the time being until your tank is cycled. When your ammonia and nitrite readings are at 0.00, you can start full feedings again.

[rossman901]

everything but my ammonia is fine, as we speak. what do you mean by superficial vacuuming??? the ammonia is around .25-.50ppm every time i do a water change(done everyday), it still reads .25.-.50 consistently. thanks guys

[DrNo]

everything but my ammonia is fine, as we speak. what do you mean by superficial vacuuming???

Sounds like you're using a python (suction tube with hose) for water changes. Use the end of the tube to disturb the top layer of the substrate when you vacuum but you don't need to push it deep into the layer of substrate.

[rossman901]

this is correct, about the device im using. thank you very much. hopefully ill see a drop in ammonia. ive just been doing straight water changes up until now, no substrate disturbance. if you cant tell, im a novice at this kind of stuff. but im learning to love it alot, even with the daily water changes. my fish are beautiful and i would do anything for them. once again, thanks for the help.

[DrNo]

No worries. There are some extremely well-infomed people here. We all have stories of great success and profound failure. Check out the articles posted on the site as well as they have some great general info. on water chemistry and general maintenance.