View Full Version : hippo tang sick??
i think my hippo tang has ICK..:1zhelp:....i think...:1zhelp:..still new to salt fish....he/she has lil white dots or his/her body.....
any way to diagnois for sure? he/she still eating and swimming around and the cleaner shrimp is still tryin to latch onto him/her to clean but he/she is only 3/4in long.....
if it is ICK is there a ICK med for salt fish?:huh:
guess i need to setup a QT tank and take her outa the rearing tank....
BToast
08-19-2008, 1:22 AM
Sounds like ich to me. Get your qt up as soon as possible. Hippo tangs are ich magnets.
brackeeper75
08-19-2008, 3:37 PM
I being a newbie at the time tried a lot of stuff . I will try to explain my course of treatment as exact as I can remember.
Hippo tang was showing classic signs of ich just days after getting him home after further research discovered this was a trait of the hippo tang. The advice that people had to give was varied and not real clear it varied from do nothing to take everything out of the tank let it run empty for 6 weeks while treating all of my fish with something that could kill them too.
The first thing I tried was getting their appetite up feeding well with food soaked in garlic. The idea here was that if you feed the fish food soaked with garlic not only would it stimulate the fishes appetite but it would change the scent that the fish has in the water and make it difficult for the free swimming ich to find the fish. After 2 weeks nothing had changed and I couldn't stand the garlic smell in the house (and I am full blooded italian to illustate how bad this really was) anymore so I decided to try something else.
I went to Epcot to talk with some of the marine biologists at the living seas. They showed me that some of their new Hippo's had the same problem as well. They said to just feed them well and It will eventually go away on its own. They told me I could also try buying a couple of cleaner shrimp to help.
I then stopped by the pet store to talk with the manager who is a friend of mine and asked him what he would do if it were his tank. He said he would try ruby kick-ich. He did not have it but he called around and found it for me.
I got home turned of my skimmer(instructions on the bottle) and started the aggressive treatment on the bottle. I went to the pet store and bought 2 cleaner shrimp, after being acclimated for 1.5 hours went right to work on any fish that would swim by. Biggest problem 2 weeks with no skimmer and really high nitrates as a result. I decided I was going to do a large water change and start a second treatment. I bought a second bottle of kick-ich and it is still sitting in my cabinet. I decided before I was going to start the second treatment that I was going to get my nitrates back into check. So I started doing 20 gallon water changes ever other day and vacuuming the sand. I also ordered a uv sterilizer to help kill off any of the free swimming parasites. After 1 week of every other day vac & waterchange plus feeding , the uv, and the shrimp there were no signs of ich anywhere in my tank. Every once and a while the hippo gets stressed and gets a few little spots but they are usually gone within a day.
So I guess the moral of the story is dont try all that crap on the store shelves. keep your water pristine, you temp stable, add a couple cleaner shrimp, and have a good and varied diet and they will over come it on their own.
50% of people say there is ich in every marine system and there is no way to completely eradicate it. It is usually always dormant but only surfaces when the fishes immune system is lowered due to stress or sickness.
50% of people say it is not there unless we introduce it on an infected fish. We should quarantine any new fish that we get for 6-8 weeks to make sure it does not show any signs of sickness or disease before adding it to our system.
mcsassy
08-20-2008, 2:11 AM
Brack is right. Higher temperatures, good feeding and cleaners are the best things. The ocean doesn't sell kick ich either.
i have one cleaner in there right now....a skunk shrimp..so named JOC..he tries to get on DORI...so named by the kids....but she is only 3/4 in long and the shrimp is 3-4in long......so he doesnt get to cling very long without pinning her to the sand....
she stays close to him and he tries to pick at her the best he can.....
ive been trying to find more but no one has them in stock....
what about those lil neon blue cleaner gobies.....think they could do anything....
brackeeper75
08-20-2008, 6:32 PM
I would really just work on getting your water perfect../Temp @ 82 and get a good quality food. How long have you had him?
From what I read...
The hippo tangs get ich when stressed. Something is causing him to break out in ich. Did you just add him to the tank recently. How do his eyes look? Is he eating well? Honestly I would wait it out a little bit. Reasons... If you were to catch him to put him in qt it will just stress him out more= more ich, if you were able to get him out and into qt, he will just stress out again when you put him back in your display.
Just my 2 cents. I dont know who was stressed out more me or the tang...
ive only had him/her for 3 weeks. she is just now starting to venture around in the tank, right now i have her in a 30g which i guess is my main QT right now since she and the shrimp and some hermits are all that is in that tank.
right now she is dartin around in the tank in and out of the caves and all. seems to be healthy,eyes are a nice black no cloudiness or anything on them.
she eats fine, pecks at the algea on the rocks and glass, eats the flakes i put in and i also feed her formula two pellets with garlic and she really loves those. i also add some sea algea leafs on a clip for her twice a week.
water parms are fine in the tank, the temp is around 80f steady.
brackeeper75
08-21-2008, 5:16 PM
water parms are fine in the tank, the temp is around 80f steady.
I will stress very highly, that you keep your water parameters Perfect. Fine will not do it when you have an ill fish. Can you do a test and give us some numbers as to what "fine" is? I would always have some algae on the clip for her, or as often as you can. Also if you don't have any coral i would take my temp to 82
Jay.B.
08-21-2008, 5:22 PM
if it persists, and what you're trying now doesn't work, drop the Qtank in to hypo
ive only had him/her for 3 weeks. she is just now starting to venture around in the tank, right now i have her in a 30g which i guess is my main QT right now since she and the shrimp and some hermits are all that is in that tank.
right now she is dartin around in the tank in and out of the caves and all. seems to be healthy,eyes are a nice black no cloudiness or anything on them.
she eats fine, pecks at the algea on the rocks and glass, eats the flakes i put in and i also feed her formula two pellets with garlic and she really loves those. i also add some sea algea leafs on a clip for her twice a week.
water parms are fine in the tank, the temp is around 80f steady.
A couple of questions. Is the 30g your main tank? Is this the tank the tang was going to live in? If so it is way way to small for regal (hippo) tang.
Garlic is not a good thing to feed marine fish as it can cause long term damage such as heart and liver lesions due to the fish not being able to process the lipids found in the oil.
if it persists, and what you're trying now doesn't work, drop the Qtank in to hypo
If this is your only tank and you have inverts in there I wouldn't advise this as this will most likely kill them. Hypo should only be used a hospital tank environment.
no this is not my only tank.......the 30 was my first starter tank.....i have it and a 75...once the hippo is done with all this QT time it will be moving into the 75....
yes this tank has inverts in it........shrimp,crabs,snails,baby feather dusters
Jay.B.
08-22-2008, 2:40 AM
If this is your only tank and you have inverts in there I wouldn't advise this as this will most likely kill them. Hypo should only be used a hospital tank environment.
I did say in my post to drop the Qtank not the main tank
upon inspection today i think she has made it thru this bout of ich....there are no visable dots any where on here.....last night the shrimp worked her over for about 15min.....and then again when the lights went out for about another 10min......
but this really makes me scared to put her into my show tank with the other fish......wouldnt they contract it?
Yes. Chances are the white spot (not ich, ich is a freshwater parasite) has released itself from the fish during the night (it's favourite time to do this) and is now in the substrate of the tank encysting into the theront stage. Next is for the cyst to realease around 200 to 300 infecting theronts which move towards light looking for a fish to host and when they find the fish the whole cycle starts again.
Do not put this fish in the display, it will still be infected the parasite is under the skin you won't see it until it starts to make its way back out again.
You need to get rid of the substrate, any inverts and anything else porous that will home the white spot in its theront stage and treat the tank with copper.
ive been told that once you ad copper to a tank it is pretty much useless after that as far as a show tank....i dont want to crap my 30g out unless i just absolutely have to have...
can i use a 10g tank a QT? i have a few of them just lying around.....if a 10 will work for a QT since my hippo is only 3/4in long how long does she need to be in the copper treatment?
i also read a lil on it.....says that if i raise the temp and leave the tank empty for at least a month that the parasite will die...any truth in that?
10 - 12 weeks fallow is best after a white spot outbreak
so she would have to stay in the copper water for 2-3 months????
so she would have to stay in the copper water for 2-3 months????
No, you would need to treat the fish for about a week with copper at a level of 0.2-0.3ppm. After a week you would then do a water change and add carbon to the tank to remove the copper.
The fish would still have to stay in QT for the remainder of the display tank fallow period to avoid re infection and to give time for the cysts in the display tank to die off due to the lack of a host.
brackeeper75
08-23-2008, 7:59 PM
I personally would not treat with copper. Especially the tang! They are really sensitive to copper. If you decide to use copper though No more than two weeks or you will damage the fish! If I was to go the treatment route I would remove everything from the tank except the fish of course. Go to home depot and get some pvc pipe/couplings for the fish to swim and hide in. Then I would slowly lower the salt level in the tank to 1.009 HYPO-SALINITY Just like JayB Said. These fish survive ich situations in the wild on their own. You may actually kill he fish with kindness if you try too much. There is no copper treatment in the ocean and I don't think that I would want to use a chemical that is poisonous to the fish to try and cure it.
There is no copper treatment in the ocean
That is because the ocean is not an enclosed environment like our tanks. Once the white spot leaves the fish in the ocean the chances of that same fish being re infected are slim as the fish will swin off else where so I think this comment is irrelavant.
Here is an interesting quote oh hyposalinity:
"Hyposalinity treatment can be a useful strategy in systems where it is impossible to get the fish out and treat them by a chemical method. You drop the SG in the tank to below 1.017 (some say as low as 1.009 but IMHE 1.015 is about as far as I would take it) in small steps around 0.002-0.003 units per day. The infectious stages of marine white spot, the tomites, can't survive the low salinity and die off. It can take a long time to cure a tank like this, at least 4 to 6 weeks often 12-16. In addition this treatment is very stressful for shrimps and urchins/starfish/brittlestars and some fish species that are sternihaline and do not osmoregulate well at low salinities.
It also plays havoc with your water chemistry and we make no apologies for repeating a comment Simon Garratt made concerning hyposalinity and the changes it causes to dKH and pH in a post on UltimateReef some time ago.
“Hyposalinity treatment is not a good idea in a modern reef tank using the Berlin method. It has drastic effects on dKH and pH stability.
SG dKH
1.025 7.04
1.020 5.36
1.015 4.16
1.010 2.96
1.005 1.44
At a dKH of 4, your pH becomes very unstable over a 24hr period with large dips at night, even more so in immature systems that commonly has higher degrees of algae present than older more mature and heavily grazed systems. Whilst severely detrimental to corals (especially hard corals) these levels can also cause a multitude of other problems as well.
Low pH levels are dangerous to all crustaceans especially during moulting which usually happens at night, this isn’t just your shrimps, it’s also your entire population of critter life in the tank that comes under this group, including copepods etc.
It also plays havoc with sand layers and the LR, causing big shifts in boundary layer function, possible dissolution of bound phosphates, and an overall destabilising of the entire nutrient cycling abilities of the tank.”
brackeeper75
08-23-2008, 8:20 PM
I also think that I would go to wetwebmedia.com and search tangs with ich. Bob Fenner, one of the worlds renowned salt water aquarium people has posted a lot of information there about tang...especially blue tangs with ich. I had the same problem, took his advice and everything worked out. Copper kills the fauna in the tangs digestive track!
But if copper is the way you want to go...it can work. You must test daily and keep the copper levels between .10-.15 to be effective to low it wont work too high your fish dies. Not worth the risk IMO. Use HYPO
I trust Bob!
My info is from a leading published academic who specialises in fish disease and treatment.
And marine fish don't get ICH. ICH is a freshwater disease (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis). Marine fish get marine white spot (Cryptocaryon irritans).
It's actually 'prolonged' copper treatment that harms microfauna present in its digestive system.
The emphasis here being 'prolonged'. A week is not classed as 'prolonged' imo as I know many people who have successfully treated tangs with a week long dose of copper at the correct ppm.
0.10 to 0.15 is too low for copper treatment, it needs to be in the 0.2 to 0.3 range to have the desired effect.
brackeeper75
08-23-2008, 8:43 PM
I am done. I am trying to give other options and share things that worked for me. If you know it all by all means have at it. We are here to help and share new experiences not to put other people, their ideas, and techniques down. What works for some people may not work for others. It does people good to hear other people experiences and what works for them. But you seem to be so closed minded about other peoples ideas that only yours can be right and if anyone challenges that you get harsh, mean and rude. Goodnight
I fail to see how any of my comments on this thread have been harsh, mean or rude. I have provided ample information on marine whitespot and its treatment and the downside to hypo.
Yes hypo works as does copper, both have its pros and cons but out of the 2 the vast majority seem to use copper treatment over hypo as it has been tried and tested for years.
Depending on the strain of Cryptocaryon irritans there is scientific evidence that some can with stand salinity as low as 1.004.
I think some people need to get thicker skin and not take all comments to heart
Catpicklesdog
08-24-2008, 4:44 AM
What we have to remember in this hobby is that everyone has their own way. Doesn't mean to say one is right, the other is wrong.
It's up to the OP to read through all the advice given and make their own informed choice.
What we have to remember in this hobby is that everyone has their own way. Doesn't mean to say one is right, the other is wrong.
It's up to the OP to read through all the advice given and make their own informed choice.
:iagree: Well said, Ali.:D
Reefscape
08-24-2008, 5:08 AM
Lets please remember that we are not scientists here, we just want a route which works to cure a parasite, infection or disease. We are all free to state our own routes to deal with an issue, however, we should not be arguing our own specific route..Simply state it, and answer questions posed on that route by the thread OP.
If its like me, i would use hypo to deal with MARINE ich...and yes, being part of Bob Fenners crew, i have never had him question why i recomended hypo and not copper when a person emails us and asks for help on Ich. Why? because both routes work, that is a fact. So, lets just listen to what people say and not try push other idea's aside. Many routes to achieve an aim is what makes us a community, and not a golden rule book..
So, lets keep this thread constructive and not argumentative.
Thanks..
i myself am scared of droppin the salinty in any of tanks regardless of how well it works.....due to the crabs,hermits,corals,anenomes,shrimp and all i would have to remove from the SHOW tank to do that. and the fish that are in there.....be my luck i would just kill the tank and then im out hundreds of dollars..
thanks for that info thou on doing that....im also kinda on the iffy side of the copper treatment as well since thats not how it happens in real life and im not up to adding stuff to my tanks that doesnt occur in real life....but i guess im just a scaredy cat since im still new to salt tanks....
the hippo is in a rearing tank that i have setup which i could use as a QT since there is nothing in it but her and a shrimp which i can easily remove to the show tank.....
its now been 2 days with no sign of anything and her dorsal fin has now perked up and is at full sail. and she is ALOT more active now.
ive read that tangs keep the MWS with them their whole lifespan....whats the truth behind that? if thats the case since she has no signs of it now and if none show after another week or so im gona attempt to ad her to the show tank along with the cleaner shrimp and a few others that im waitin to show up.
but we will have to wait and see how things go.....
Reefscape
08-24-2008, 11:49 AM
A word of note on hypo...this is used in a hospital or QT tank, not the main display tank. I, personaly, would never recommend running hypo on a main tank.
I FREAKING GIVE UP.....guess i gota break down and setup a QT....the lil fella got dots all over again this afternoon....
begining to wish id never bought her.....but oh well.....when i set the QT up can i just suck water outa the tank she is in so its alil less stress full on her since she wont be going into new water and then treat her? or do i have to mix up water....wait weeks for it to be right...then soak her?
Reefscape
08-25-2008, 4:35 PM
Yes, you can use the water from the display tank.....
i have another question.........
im reading an article on line that has a series of "baths" to treat the fish....
am i supposed to do it that way and risk stressing the lil fella out to death or just treat the water in the tank?
heres the article im reading
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/ht/treatbrooklynel.htm
severum mama
08-25-2008, 6:03 PM
Remember if you are QTing your fish, you will have to QT all of them during treatment. Let the main display run fallow for 8+ weeks.
brackeeper75
08-25-2008, 7:15 PM
Remember if you are QTing your fish, you will have to QT all of them during treatment. Let the main display run fallow for 8+ weeks.
She has not been added to the main tank yet...Right, still in QT? If she has not been in the main tank, you will not have to let it go fallow.
no she is not in the show tank......she is currently in a 30g holding tank that i have setup(which was actually my first salt tank).....the only thing in there with her is a skunk shrimp and a few cortez hermits.....
Jay.B.
08-27-2008, 7:58 AM
Is there any live rock or sand in there with the fish?
anything that needs marine salt levels to survive should be separated.
it would probably be easier to set up a completely empty Qtank with an internal filter (no rock or sand) with water from the tank she is in at the moment, the do a 25% water change daily until the SG drops to 1.009, best to do it slowly so as not to shock the fish too much, keep the fish in hypo for at least 6 weeks, preferably the full 8 to 9.
You will need to keep a close eye on the pH as it will undoubtedly need buffering.
Your fish will survive at that low SG but the parasite won't.
I haven't done hypo myself yet, but a good friend on another forum has done it a couple of times on her puffers (porcupine and start & stripes) if they can get through it then you shouldn't have a problem.
If I've got anything wrong or missed anything here then I'm sure reef will put it right
from what I can tell from viewing threads on other forums, this does appear IMO to be the best way of treating marine white spot
I hope which ever way you decide to go you eradicate the problem, best of luck
:cry::cry:UPDATE>>>>>
thanks for all the help guys but DORI passed away sometime today.....
i only have 2 stores here that sell the copper stuff and neither had it and wasnt gettin it in till fri was the soonest and petco next tues with their order.....both hut for over a week....
she was doing good this morning swam out of her lil cave to grab some food when i fed her and then i went to work to come home to find that she died....
this really T-S me off but considering this is the first fish i have lost in the 8 months that ive been saltwater i guess i cant really complain to much...
i will get another HIPPO TANG but gona wait untill i have everything i need to fight ICH or WHITE SPOT which ever it is.......
again.........thank you to all of you that gave the information on what to do.......
snailrider
08-27-2008, 10:35 PM
Sorry to hear about your loss.
BToast
08-28-2008, 1:55 AM
Sorry to hear about this. I have had more difficulty with these fish than all others combined. Glad to hear it never hit your display tank, good for you not making that mistake. I agree and disagree with some of the previous info. Adding any meds to a display is just a bad idea. Running the display fallow for 8 weeks will rid white spot 99.8 % of the time. I have done so and it worked for me several times. I agree copper and hypo both work, but after reading, and my own experience, hypo is the less stressful method for the fish. Anyway, I hope you have better luck with the next one.
i need to run the tank empty now for a month or so i guess to make sure its all dead and gone but i have a question.
in the tank is a cleaner shrimp.....do i need to pull it out of there? and if so the only tank i have to put it in is the 75 display and there is a 3in dwarf fuzz lion in there.....the shrimp is about 3in....would it become dinner right away or would it be safe?
BToast
08-28-2008, 7:46 PM
If the lion is big enough to fit it into it's mouth don't be suprised if he eats it. As far as the fallow tank, are you referring to the qt or a display? I only ask because to rid the system it will take between 6-8 weeks minimum. I got the impression the fish never hit the display.
yeah im refering to my QT/rearing tank the 30g.......thats what the shrimp and chocolate chip starfish are in.....
i know i cant add the star to my 75 display cuz he'll eat my feather dusters and anenome's.....and wold hate the cleaner become dinner as well...
just wondering if the whitespot will affect them or live off them being in the tank
BToast
08-28-2008, 10:07 PM
Inverts don't host ich. Also don't put in hypo.
" Marine invertebrates have the same osmotic concentration as the surrounding water (Schmidt-Nielsen, 1975) and if left in the aquarium during hyposalinity treatment are most likely to die due to osmotic shock."