confused with ammonia testing

[mrmagic2713]

hi guys, i recently tested for ammonia in my 90g heavily stock tank. i used the api liquid test kit,( multiple times) and it gave me a reading of 8.0! now with those numbers i would expect to see some dead, or very distressed fish. however, all the fish look and act fine. so then i brought the ammonia alert (from seachem) it sticks inside of the tank. the ammonia reading it gave is 0.5! i went to seachems website, and they explained that most of the tests on the market actually test for 2 types of ammonia! one is harmfull, and the other is not. what the hell gives here? are all the other tests on the market forcing people into panic mode by testing for a form of ammonia that is not relevant? nothing for nothing, but 0.5 to 8.0 is one hell of a difference! and just for refference we are talking about an established tank, ph is 7.2 water is clear as a bell. i tested the ammonia alert by letting vapors from a windex bottle blow onto the face of the reader (as per seachems instructions) the indicator immediatly shot into the toxic zone! but when i put it back in my tank it gives me a mild alert, with a reading of 0.5! how on earth am i suppose to accuratly determine my water parameters?

[DAVIDFBT]

API tests the bad kind of ammonia, are you sure that you were in a well-lit room when matching the colors? 8ppm of ammonia will kill any fish in that tank. You should have 0 ammonia in a cycled tank.

[mrmagic2713]

yes i just did the 8th test with the api kit and once again, i am getting a dark green color indicating 8.0 or higher! meanwhile the seachem ammonia alert is holding steady at about 0.5! and trust me, my fish are all very much alive AND well! what gives?

[DrNo]

8 or 0.5... it really doesn't matter. Any ammonia is deadly. You need to do immediate water changes to bring the levels down and keep doing them to keep the levels as low as possible. Any idea why your levels spiked? How did you cycle the tank? If its heavily stocked then you're asking for this kind of trouble though...

[Draal5]

sounds like you have a contaminated bottle of reagent.There are other ways to tell if your water is bad one is smell the water it should smell like water with an earthy smell, if it smells like cat P then do a water change.The other is dip you finger and swirl the water do the bubbles pop quickly 1-3 seconds if they do your water is fine If they don't then there is pollutants in the water and change water.

If over time you pay attention to these two things as you are doing your testing you will learn to tell when your water is bad before you test it.

That is the old school way that has been forgotten by most with these cheap chemicals that us old timers rarely use.

[DominionDesign]

It could be bad reagents or contamination in the test vial. How old is the test kit? If it were anywhere near 8ppm you would have massive die off. I would be concerned about reading even .5ppm in an established tank as that is a sign you are on the verge of major issues. It sounds like time for some water changes and thinning out the population. I would get some new reagents and try testing again.

[mrmagic2713]

i totally concur with the fact that ALL amonia is bad, so on that note, the water change is in progress, the feeding will be kept at bare minimum, and i will probably be giving about 5 fish away. but i still gotta ask how can there be such a large disparity between these tests. i have to assume that the api test was inacurrate. the fact that none of the fish died tends to support that reasoning.

[DominionDesign]

We are all assuming that also, that's why we've said it is probably bad/ contaminated reagents. Replace the reagents and re-test and let us know how it turns out.

[brentling]

Many water conditioners such as Amquel provide false positive or off the scale readings. What sort of dechlor/chloramine are you using? Don't Panic. This is exactly what it sounds like. I bet you are using a Nessler's Reagent type test. There are other types (Salicylate?) hat work with Amquel, atc.

[mrmagic2713]

hey draal5, i just did the finger test, and it came out fine! the smell of the water is maybe a bit stronger than normal, so i am changing some of the water now. why take chances? by the way, there is nothing wrong with the old school way of doing things! i am not a big fan of chemicals in aquarium water.

[brentling]

Ditto on the earthy smell. Once you know what it smells like, a healthy tank has an unmistakable pleasant smell of earth. You can take a big whiff...and it smells right. Glad to know I'm not the only relic on the board.



sounds like you have a contaminated bottle of reagent.There are other ways to tell if your water is bad one is smell the water it should smell like water with an earthy smell, if it smells like cat P then do a water change.The other is dip you finger and swirl the water do the bubbles pop quickly 1-3 seconds if they do your water is fine If they don't then there is pollutants in the water and change water.

If over time you pay attention to these two things as you are doing your testing you will learn to tell when your water is bad before you test it.

That is the old school way that has been forgotten by most with these cheap chemicals that us old timers rarely use.

[mrmagic2713]

i did my regular weekly water change 2 days ago. i use tetra aquasafe for the chlorine, and i usually add some aquarium salt. the api test claims to be a salicylate based ammonia test kit.

[brentling]

Is the test kit new? Or the use of the Aquasafe new? This sounds exactly like a Nessler's reagent issue with a false off-the-scale reading. The conditioner I use provides a false reading for at least 48 hours...

[Draal5]

Ditto on the earthy smell. Once you know what it smells like, a healthy tank has an unmistakable pleasant smell of earth. You can take a big whiff...and it smells right. Glad to know I'm not the only relic on the board.

who are you calling a relic!:jaw: I said old timer :hitting::rofl:

I too am glad I am not the only one left doing it that way

[mrmagic2713]

this is one of the reasons why the use of chemicals sometimes suck when it comes to aquaria. i just bought the test kit yesterday, and i have had the tetra stuff for about 2 months. but who knows how long this stuff was sitting around in some warehouse? LOL, anyway i fell a bit relieved, becuase that initial 8.0 reading almost had me drinking again!

[Arakkis]

Probably a bad batch of reagent. The seachem intank testers are usually off by a bit. Other things that can throw off a test are liquuid ammonia absorbing chemicals like Ammo-Lock

[brentling]

Probably a bad batch of reagent. The seachem intank testers are usually off by a bit. Other things that can throw off a test are liquuid ammonia absorbing chemicals like Ammo-Lock

The Ammonia Test Kits:

The Nessler method test kit is designed to test the total combined ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+) levels. The color chart measures in shades of amber or brown. If you are treating your tank with AmQuel+ or a similar ammonia fighting water conditioner then you aren't interested in the total ammonia level, you are only interested in any toxic ammonia that may be present. If you test with a Nessler test kit you may get a false positive. Technically it isn't "false" but it is telling you more then you need to know. More recently, Salicylate based test kits have been the norm on store shelves. They measure ammonia in shades of green and only warn you of dangerous (NH3) ammonia levels. These are safe to use with water conditioners like AmQuel+ or Ammo Lock.

It's not always obviously marked on the package so you might have to check the fine print or open the box to peek at the color chart. Depending on your water and the conditioners you use you may not need a Salicylate test kit but they are always the safe choice. Anyone can use them where as with the Nessler kit is only accurate under certain conditions.

From http://nippyfish.blogspot.com/2006/08/ammonia-test-kits-nessler-vs.html. Kordon's website is down. Too bad because they have an excellent article about all of this. Your reagent is not old/bad. It is just not compatible with your water conditioner!!

[DAVIDFBT]

Just curious, what's your tank size/stocking?

[mrmagic2713]

brentling, you have explained ALOT! too bad most of the test manufacterers dont take the time out to fully inform the consumer! DAVIDFBT, in answer to your question (i was afraid someone would ask!) i currently have a 90g, stocked with one arowana, one albino catfish, one pleco, one red devil, one tiger oscar, one bala shark, one butta cofi, one jack dempsy, 2 cichlids, and one goumari! definetly time for a bigger tank, or a smaller stock! with the exception of the aro, maybe I can work all these guys in a 210 gallon! (HMMMMMMMMMMMMM!) ................stay tuned! the next sound you will hear is my wife hitting me with the skillet! LOL!

[Draal5]

I have been looking for an article that I read by (Dr. rofon )sp the inventor of amquel and amquel+ where they tested all the testing kits and strips and found that half the half the time they were ALL inaccurate that none tested were 100%

I will post a link as soon as I find it I think its on novalek's site but its down right now

[Squawkbert]

Ammonia toxicity is largely pH dependent. If you have a pH in the 6-6.5 range, you can get away w/ having a lot more NH3 becasue it will be protonated (NH4+) and a lot less toxic. If you increase the pH to >7, you convert most or all NH4+ back to the more toxic NH3 form.

[chunkoblue]

Try your liquid test kit with some bottled water and see if you get an ammonia reading. If it doesn't read any ammonia then your liquid test kit is probably not contaminated. It sounds like you tank may be heavily stocked, and I wouldn't be surprised if ammonia is present. If your pH is low then that could explain why you haven't had massive die offs since the ammonia is in the NH4+ form. Even so, you should do several water changes to eliminate all forms of ammonia.

[DavidZ]

Good idea, test on bottled water
Some chems in the water will give you those readings, do several large(50%plus) water changes and then test.

[mrmagic2713]

you guys are simply the best! the smartest things to do are sometimes the most obvious! in any event, i did a 50 percent water change, retested with the api kit, and the readings are still 8.0 the level on the seachem ammonia alert dropped from 0.05 to 0.02 wich is reasonable safe for dangerous ammonia. however, i also tested clear tapwater with the api kit, and it reflects 0ppm! it looks like i will be doing continuous water changes for awhile because it seems that the only thing keeping my fishies alive, is the fact that my ph is low enough to keep the obviously high presence of nh4 from converting into the deadly form.

[chunkoblue]

If the tap tested 0, then I would trust the liquid test kit. Though I don't have experience with the ammonia alert system, I have read that they are not as reliable as the liquid test kits.

[SchizotypalVamp]

Umm..guys...the API Master isn't nessler based..and a nessler based would only give a false reading if he was using prime or amquel...and he hasn't added anything to lock up ammonia to give a false reading....

[jrwarren]

If his pH is low enough it will be converted to non-toxic NH4. When i had a tank running around 6.0 my ammonia was reading off scale on my API test kit, but it was obvious it was not toxic because nothing was dead. The only time i ever saw an issue was the one time i forgot to correct the pH of the water change water and it caused some of the NH4 to convert back to NH3.

[KarlTh]

As an aside, the biggest killer in a pH crash is usually bringing the pH up too quickly. Not because of so called "pH shock", which is largely mythological, but because in a low pH situation the bacteria are inhibited and ammonium rises. The panicking aquarist raises the pH quickly (mistakenly thinking that the low pH is in itself a threat to the fish), the accumulated ammonium turns to ammonia and the fish croak.

[robbob2112]

I have an API test kit and 2 different brands of strips. In one aquarium I use prime and in the other I don't. I am on well water so there the no chlorine to nutralize, I use the prime because it is a fairly new tank and wanted to make sure the filter was established. I transfered media from the old tank and then added a full bioload right away. But the old tank is a 46 gallon heavy planted and the new tank is a 75 gallon cichlid tank with just crushed coral and rocks. So, much higher bioload. The prime also claims to lock up some heavy metals so I figured if the new rocks leach any into the water better safe than sorry.

That said, the test strips (both brands) indicate in the 10~40PPM range on nitrates for both tanks. The API liquid kit reads 10~40 PPM on the non-prime tank and off the scale on the prime tank. It reads off the scale if I test right after a water change, or a week later.

The Red Sea test kit that uses powder and liquid reagent reacts the same way. I bought several different kits at different points so I can verify my results and rule out bad tests.

The indicator card goes from yellow to red, red being higher. If that help tell which reagents were used. I recall reading that one type test used shades of green and the other used shades of red, but I don't recall which was which.

I bought the API kit at petsmart almost a year ago, perhaps API has changed their kit in that time frame and people have to different types?

My PH is 8.0 btw due to the hard well water and the crushed coral. GH 300+, KH 240~300. Out of the tap the PH is 7.6.

[DavidZ]

You must have added some treatment/chem to your water, some will effect the test readings. The Seachem Alert's do work and I have seen them used in some LFS, but wouldn't trust them.
I have also heard that the ammonia chips in the filter, will prevent beneficial bacteria to establish to the peak, don't know if that is true, I am not using them.

[mrmagic2713]

man this forum is really informative! its like having access to guys with a phd in fisholigy! now as the student, i must ask, why is it that NH3, and NH4, both come from fish waste, yet you could have a MUCH higher level of one over the other? i did a 50 percent water change last night, and now the seachem alert reads 0.02 for the (free) ammonia, and the api kit reads at about 2.0 which is much better than the 8.0 reading i had yesterday! about to do another water change to see if the numbers drop further

[DavidZ]

I find that 20-30% water changes don't do much, on a weekly WC

[mrmagic2713]

i think you are right david! ESPECIALLY on a heavily stocked tank! my new program will include 2 w/c per week minimum. its really a breeze using the python! and the little bit of extra effort is well worth it!