Taking a big breath and a big step back...

[Jamie]

After putting much thought into my 150 planted set up, thus far, it's turning out to be a failure (for the most part). At first I was very angry because I thought that I did everything right...but oh well. If there is anything that I could change about my tank, it would be the wet/dry flitration. I don't think its bad filtration, it's just bad for CO2 injection. Since my tank more or less revolves around this form of filtration, I've had to be creative with the CO2 addition. I finally got the ppm up to 20 though it has resulted in a wet living room rug twice. I ended up raising the water level way up in my sump and submerged my reactor in it, upstream of the return pump. It works but is dangerous. My war with algea is getting worse. After my tank was completely taken over by thread algea, it now has started to grow the water born single cell algea. The plus is that I can't see the thread algea much anymore...actually I can't see much of anything in my tank anymore. I'm just letting it ride though. I'm not letting it get me down. The tank is a gigantic eye sore as it is in my living room and is quite large. One sort of funny thing is that since the green water problem, at night my tank gives the entire living room a green tint. It's kind of funny to view from my street. God only knows what the neighbors are thinking...it looks like we're running a nuclear waste facility or are in cahoots with martians. Any way, after that long introduction, I've been thinking it might be best to just take a big step back. The miliotary is putting me through fligh school right now and I don't have the time to continuously be working on my tank. I almost decided to redo everything (switch substrate to sand, lots more rocks, cichlids, no CO2) but want to talk to you guys and gals first. Going completely over to a cichlid tank will only cost about an additional $50 then fish. I'd have to cut out the CO2 system which was very expensive, but I definately plan on using it for future planted tanks...with canister filters...OK back on track, My first thing is to accept my wet/dry. My tank is drilled for it, it's a good way to filter a big tank, gotta use it. Second, cut out all injected CO2. I figured..let the bio balls do their thing and oxygenate...yadda yadda... deal with the fact that I'm only gonna have 3 ppm CO2 based on ambient saturation. Fertilize minimally, do regular water changes. I'd be sticking with my 300 watts of ahsupply lighting (2 wpg) and still using the flourite, though it will be vaccumed thoroughly. BTW, do root tabs end up disintegrating under the substrate or do they stay solid more or less? I will keep my current fish load which is quite low, only adding several more algea eating fish (SAE's, ottos, snails, shrimp (though the remaining zebra loaches may eat them so I might not get the shrimp). Is it possible to go no CO2 and have the plants live? I'm not saying grow like mad...just be healthy. Or do I have too much lighting..and will continue to grow algea like mad....which btw, I will be cleaning and doing a black out starting this weekend. I've even thought about adding flourish excell, but figured that it would be way to expensive to keep up with a larger tank. ANy thoughts or comments are always appreciated. Thanks to all for reading and helping.

- Jamie

P.S. One positive thing about my tank so far (the reason why I didn't say "complete failure" at the beggining of this thread) is that most of the plants are doing well. I can't see them too well, but it is aparent that many have new growth. The only plants that aren't doing well are my bronze wendeti and my scarlet temple. Everything else is hanging in there and fighting the algea. Also, a side note, I'll be creating a profile for my current tank set up so I don't have to keep posting it in my threads over and over.

[djlen]

There are, I'm sure, people who have had success with CO2 along with a wet-dry filter. I just don't know any of them, nor have I heard from many. The main problem with them is gas off.
Don't feel as though you've failed with this tank. Tanks, IME, go through these changes until they season up. Everything is so critical, balance wise until a biological system gets established.
Every tank I've ever set up has, in one way or another had algae issues I've had to fight through. In my case the time frame has usually been in the 4 - 6 month area. Balance is still critical after that, but not as critical.
The good news is that with 2 watts/gal. you definitely can have a nicely growing "low tech" tank with probably all the plants you have at present. They will grow slower, but they will grow. It will also require somewhat less time on your part. Also, since the plants will grow slower, the amount of fertilization is cut back accordingly.
The bad news is that when you come out of your blackout you're going to need to keep the plants growing well in order to fend off the return of the algae.
My suggestion would be to come back, post blackout with the CO2 and gradually decrease it as time goes along.

Len

[Jamie]

Thanks Len, I was wondering about how things would work after the blackout. As always, you provide great support.

-Jamie

[johnstires]

Jaime,

I think taking a step back is a good idea. If I was in your situation, I'd start looking at other people's 150 setups and find one that you admire. Once you have these people's setups identified, look to see how you can convert your setup to one similar to thiers. It seems like you have a pretty intricate setup, so your flexibility for the type of tank you setup is up to you. Just because you have a built in W/D filter, doesn't mean you need to use it. I don't know your exact setup, but would assume you could rig it to not act like a W/D if needed. My main point is that there are people with successful 150 gallon setups and those people are a great resource for what is proven to work. check out this link for ideas and specs.

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2002.cgi?&op=showpage&name=view-ag-xl

Good luck and hang in there.

[Timmain42]

W/D can work with your co2, I am living proof. I have a 240g/3.5 WPG with a CO2 reactor right near the return. Yes, I gas off a bit, but it CAN be done. Just remember to slowly take your biomedia out of the sump, as most of the co2 actually dissapates with the water runs over the bioballs (a HUGE area of oxgen/water contact).

[The Gipper]

Don't feel too bad jamie, you have company. I just switched my 120 from wet-dry to canister. My tank had been running great (no algae) for 2 months except I couldn't keep CO2 up without opening the floodgates on my CO2 tank. But I had no algae, all plants peraling like crazy, etc.

Within 3 days of switching to canister, my water started to take on a faint green tint!!!! Now 7 days later I've got green water for the second time (first time was when I first set up the tank in May with the wet-dry)!!!!

Of course I'm starting over with my filtration media (I did put a wad of filter floss from the prefilter ino the new canister as a "seed", but otherwise the rest of the canister media is virgin).

I guess I'll be facing a break in period all over again, throwing the blanket over the tank for a few days, etc.

[Jamie]

I haven't had time to touch my tank for the past week. The water went green and I just let it ride. Well, over the past two days the tank went from an opaque green to quite clear. Odd thing is that there is a bunch of crap on the substrate...brownish loose algea...the thread algea is a lot less, maybe it is the dead algea? Also the thread algea used to be covering my tank with fine brownish/green strands everywhere. Now it is in thick ugly brown clumps...still pretty long though. Most excitingly, two clumps of plants drastically grew from the time the green water set in and disappeared. My tropical suset hygro and rotalla indica seem to have grown 3-5 inches!!!! The both got quite bushy as well. I can still see new growth on the bacopa and wisteria, just not nearly as much. My foreground plants are pretty much the same and the bronze wedeti still isn't doing well. Another weird thing is that the plants aren't pearling like when I first bumped up the CO2. Maybe they're just growing more instead? I've read that dead plant debris on the substrate creates humic acid and releases chemicals which will prevent algea...if this is true, maybe I should hold of for another week before I clean the substrate of this debris.....any comments suggestions are always appreciated. BTW thanks for the support Gipp. Also, timmain, you have no bio-balls and that works for you? Where is the water level in your sump in relation to the filter media? Also, how many bbubles per second to you run...that's a pretty big tank...and what kind of reactor do you use? Thanks - Jamie

[djlen]

The mind boggles at this hobby and the crazy things that happen.
You have done practically nothing and from what you say the algae is clearing!!??!!
My inclination is to tell you to clean up the brown and dead algae and keep cleaning it. Algae, in all my experience, thrives on dirt and in dirty water. Cleaning it up as it accumulates would seem to be the way to go, but you seem to be working through it by doing nothing.
What have you been fertilizing during the last week? Also, what is your CO2 ppm?
Possibly since you pumped up the CO2 the plants are now starting to take over.

On other thing......on your other thread on this topic, GhoriG made a suggestion that would also be beneficial. Get some algae eaters. I use Otos, and Black Mollies. They would help out quite a bit.
BTW, GhoriG is new to this forum, but not to this hobby. Very knowledgeable. He knows his stuff!!

Len

[Jamie]

Phew! I just spent about 6 hrs cleaning all the crap out of my tank. I ended up taking my three large pieces of driftwood out as there was so much crud to vacuum and I wanted to remove as much as possible. I'd say after this cleaning, about 85-90% of the algea is gone and the water is clear. That is saying something considering the condition my tank was in a week or two ago. I ended up needing to remove about half the water to sufficiently clean the tank. While the driftwood was out I attached several of my java ferns to them, as well as my 3 anubias nanas and a nice sized clump of java moss. Well, my fingers are crossed...I am hoping the plants have a good hold on the competition with the algea. The only thing I have added to the water thus far is some baking soda to bring my hardness back up between 3 and 4. I guess I'll see what tomorrow brings, I really hope this stays relatively clean (algea free). I'm gonna be pretty bummed if my cleaning actually promoted the growth of algea again. I plan on taking the ferts very slow at this point. I may add some K and Mg. I will probably add half of what is recommended for the flourish and see what happens. I'm thinking I will stay away from the nitrates for now...they should be around 5-10 right now any way. I'm too tired now to test everything about my water...so long as the pH and kH are fine, I'm fine.

[Jamie]

also, FYI, I'm developing other forms of algea, though at much much slower rates. One kind I'm assuming is Blue Green Algea (based on color) and the other is hair algea maybe....it is very thin and sort of course to the touch..looks and feels like balled up fishing line.

[125gJoe]

One huge/giant problem is that living room window. If the neighbors can clearly see the tank, and from what you said, they can.. This means it's way too close to the window. Sunlight and planted tanks are hard to control... It's best and easiest to rely on store bought aquarium lights of the proper wattage and Kelvin rating.
I recommend getting and using a Vortex XL diatom filter to get the free floating algae filtered out quickly. A UV Sterilizer helps a great deal with this too. Those 2 devices simplifies keeping that large water column clean and crystal clear.

I'm wondering if you planted very heavily when you first started the tank. If not, this could be just one part of the algae problem..
Too much and uncontrolled direct sunlight is not good.

....Just a couple of my opinions.. I wish you success!!

[Jamie]

one of the short sides of my tank is near a window, but doesn't get direct sunlight through it. The neighbors can't see the tank, they would only be able to see the green glow coming from my livingroom windows...as a result of 300 watts of light shining through very green water....it gave the entire room a green glow. This could only be seen at night, but it was pretty interesting. But this doesn't happen anymore as I don't have green water now. Like I said before, my fingers are crossed at this point, I hope the algea is still losing the battle after my thorough cleaning last night. This whole experience has been quite educational, I have experience about 4 different forms of algea thus far that I had never dealt with before...though I hope to never deal with them in such a severe way again.

[GulfCstAquarian]

Originally posted by Jamie
This whole experience has been quite educational, I have experience about 4 different forms of algea thus far that I had never dealt with before...though I hope to never deal with them in such a severe way again.

It's funny, some of the most knowledgeable hobbyists are the ones who have had the most problems. Every time you overcome a problem, you become experienced and reduce the risk of running into the problem ever again.

It sounds like you're learning a great deal and winning the overall war.

One suggestion - if you really want to go into a low-CO2 environment with just 3-4ppm ambient CO2 levels from atmospheric absorption, look into plants capable of biogenic decalcification. They strip Carbon from Calcium Carbonate (found in hard water, aragonite, baking soda, etc.). Before I had pressurized CO2, my Jungle Vals would have a field day consuming nutrients when CO2 levels would drop and the stem plants were unable to utilize them.

[DIYMatt]

Sounds like you are on the right track Jamie. Isn't this hobby fun!;) I went through somewhat the same thing on my 75g when I set it up originally. i think most new tanks go through some sort of algae mess. I beat almost everything by letting the tank balance out, monitoring my nutreints, and buying lots of Algae eaters!. The only thing that survived was the hair algae at first. But, luckily I found some SAE's and I haven't visually seen any since. I knows its in there beacuse I have given plants to freinds who prevoisly did not have it, and now they do. I recommend SAE's as almost a requirement for a plant tank because I haven't found anything else that does as good a job. Mollies in my very soft slightly acidic water don't really thrive. The other algae eaters I use and love in my tanks are Ottocinclus, Ancistrus cats(no plecos for me please), Amano Shrimp, and snails. I would only buy Malaysian trumpet snails. You will probably get many other types attached to plants. All of these together should eat all types of algae, and IMO add their own personalities to the tank. If you want some MTS snails I would send you some if you pay the postage, and if someone tells me the best way to send them to keep them alive.

BTW- Before I moved my plant tank was right in front of a large window and I kept the algae at bay. I think by close monitoring of nutrients and by generally running a nutreint limited tank. So, I don't think a little ambient light is the main issue. Also, IME the extensive testing is only necessary at first, after the tank gets going and I have found a system, I only test for PH unless something is visually wrong.

[Jamie]

After a day, the algea is still pretty much at bay...I can see some forming on the plants again, though it is not as fast as before. I need some more algea eaters in a bad way...all I have right now are 2 farlowellas for the entire 150 gallons. And they don't seem to touch the bulk of this stuff. BTW, I PM'ed you Matt. Let me know if you got it. Your generosity is greatly appreciated. I used to have MTS's in a 55 african cichlid tank with a sand bottom. They were awesome. They came with the tank when I bought it and they went with the tank when I sold it before I moved. Hmmmm, I was just thinking, how do the MTS's do with flourite as the substrate?

I passed a personal plant mile marker today....I trimmed my hygro and rotalla for the first time and planted the clippings :D I am excited that the tank vaguely resembles what I want it to. I need to learn how to properly sculpt the plants. right now the rotalla indica and tropical suset hygro are sort of pushing everything else out of the way. And the hygro is too lanky for my likings. I think the first thing I will dose is K....seems to be one of the most important and most harmless.

[djlen]

Give it some Traces as well.
You mean your LFS doesn't have any Mollies? Shocker!!
If you can find them, Otos at the rate of 1 per 10 gallons will help a lot.

Len

[Jamie]

I dosed some ferts...though I think I should've waited a bit longer. Algae is starting to rear its ugly head again. I dosed K and Mg, thinking that they don't really promoted algae yet are important nutrients. I dosed the slightest bit of flourish, about 2-3 ml. I tested my nitrates and after 3 water changes they are still about 10-12 ppm. I'm hoping after my next water change they will be lower. The algae still isn't nearly as bad as before...but it's coming back. I'd just like to keep it under control from the get go. Though I don't think that black mollies will contribute to the aesthetic value of my tank, I think I'm going to get a few. I'd really like to get some SAE's and ottos if the LFS has them. But mollies will probably be cheaper anyway and just as good. Maybe they'll have a lyretail variety that makes them look a little bit fancier. One thing I've noticed about this go around with the algae is that it is growing on the substrate a lot quicker than before. It is still all in the plants, but has stayed away from the driftwood for the most part. Keeping the driftwood free of the algae is the biggest thing for me. Once it starts growing on it, it seems that the whole tank goes to h*ll. Not to mention that once the would is covered, the tank just looks ugly.

[djlen]

Have you got any floaters in the tank? Salvinia, Water Sprite, or Egeria(floating or planted) will suck up a bunch of excess nutrients for you. Salvinia(which I keep around for just these occasions) has saved my butt more than once.
Don't forget your balance.....adding one element without a corresponding amount of another can cause continued issues.
K and Traces along with P and N IF NEEDED in small amounts til you see what works to get the plants moving and still keep the algae at a minimum. How is you CO2ppm? 25 - 30?

BTW, I consider my mollies 'pets'. They're just so different and more friendly than anything else I've got in the tank, I've learned to really like them.

Len