Mixing morays

[MLEgirl]

Any tips on the subject?I searched but found relatively sparse info.

It seems most people view moray communities about the same as they do arowana communities, that they are possible and rewarding but many prefer not to try given the potential problems which can arise.

I was going to try a zebra moray and a snowflake moray.

A guy at my LFS said that he was fairly certain the snowflake moray often falsely listed as FW moray, G.Tile, was not the same species as the one that comes in off the SW order list.......I was hoping somone could maybe confirm this because I saw another snowflake eel in my searches that was definitely not G.Tile (which I don't want).

Any other tips or suggestion on other species to try are welcome.The one I want to try most is the hawain dragon but thats not going to happen so I figured snowflake and zebra were my safest bet.

[Amphiprion]

The snowflake moray is Echidna nebulosa. Though some may disagree/have different experience, in general IME, they do not necessarily get along with each other. One is almost always going to be the "loser," which has the worst hiding spots (or none at all), as well as consistent stress. If you do try to make a "community" of typically solitary animals, then I suggest a large tank (at least 100 gallons). That will minimize any interspecific aggression. You'll also want to provide a lot of hiding places.

[MLEgirl]

Thanks for the speedy reply.

Your post reminded me that I forgot to mention tank size.I plan to start with a 90g and purchase a larger tank within the next year no less than 125g but possibly as large as 180g.

If my finance's aro community ever starts to develop problems than our 250 will be the next step for our SW monsters.

[OldManOfTheSea]

MLEgirl, one of the most things to be concern about, is in the mixer of eels, in which tank size may or not play a huge role in it working out as one might plan. The thing is, you could even as well, have yourself a pair of sfe, and one day after having them for lets say five years, one decides to bite the other. I seen something as this with dwarf golden morays and even goldentail morays.

What you need to know at the start of this is, eels know no friends comes time for feeding, they even can and will turn on their own. Eels, unlike the wolf eel, never care for their young, their on their own from day one.

Now on the idea of a sfe and zebra moray, it can work, and you always will have that small percentage to where it not work. but the percentages will be in your favor. What would make this happen, is if you can afford one other diet requirement, "Crab"

It is just as you said, a potential problems which can or could arise>
But on the idea of both, the zebra and snowflake morays, I wouldn't go with any tank smaller then a 150, and larger would be better. For the smaller the tank, and your corals as well, you automatically limited their free space, and this can cause corals to be knock over.


A guy at my LFS said that he was fairly certain the snowflake moray often falsely listed as FW moray, G.Tile, was not the same species as the one that comes in off the SW order list.......
There do be a difference between the two and the tile as well lives a good part of its life in brackishwaters. Do be careful to what you will listen to from your LFS people.


The one I want to try most is the hawain dragon but thats not going to happen so I figured snowflake and zebra were my safest bet.
You can get away by having as small fish as 4" with the zebra and sfe

On the idea of both the sfe an you would be needing any number of hiding places, and in short order, they would have a spot selected as where their happy lair be, and high water quality must be maintained at all times, with low to untraceable levels in nitrate levels.

Amphiprion, im sorry, but a 100 gal tank for both these eels is in my professional opinion, to tight quarters for if I was to go with the sfe by itself, I go with nothing smaller then a 75, and the zebra grows larger of the two. Also MLEgirled to get the zebra moray a bit larger then the sfe. But in their hiding places, they will do better as well if their giving lairs that block all lights, they should have totally darkness.

So before obtaining these eels, you should have all setup and stock completed, then get both eels as near to the same time as possible. Protect your overflow box for either of these eels while their in their juvenile stages.

Buddy ><{{{{">

[Amphiprion]

Amphiprion, im sorry, but a 100 gal tank for both these eels is in my professional opinion, to tight quarters for if I was to go with the sfe by itself, I go with nothing smaller then a 75, and the zebra grows larger of the two. Also MLEgirled to get the zebra moray a bit larger then the sfe. But in their hiding places, they will do better as well if their giving lairs that block all lights, they should have totally darkness.

Buddy ><{{{{">

I was thinking of the wrong species when I saw "zebra eel." If you are referring to Gymnomuraena zebra, even a 150 is too cramped--that is my professional opinion. A "bit" as far as size difference is nothing short of an understatement, as one species that is potentially 50% larger the other. The specimen I have currently maintained for a few years in a 240 can attest to this at a bit over four feet in length. A snowflake moray will live happily in a 100 gallon.

As far as total darkness, that is a bit exaggerated and overgeneralized. As long as more secretive species, like G. zebra have a space that can accommodate their rather exceptional length, then they will be more than happy. Most species, unlike E. nebulosa, typically only move at night, though can be found moving during the day. In the aquarium, this behavior is even more pronounced, with specimens of some of the most cryptic species becoming bolder. One thing, though, should be carefully considered is the stability of the materials used when constructing their "caves," since these animals have considerable strength (and not to mention they typically dig a bit, as well).

[OldManOfTheSea]

Good, some one wishes to talk eels, but just how much do your truly understand, other then just what you readied up on?

One of the true facts be is that within most of those who will ever keep a zebra, never see its normal maximum growth. The thing here is, it be a combination of their diet and water quality in the long term of keeping such eels. True enough, if a hobbyist was to do all the best for this eel, they could see for themselves that they would be needing a 240 gal tank.

Gymnomuraena zebra can even grow 5', we just never see them in captivity, in home aquariums. Also, from so many others in speaking of this, most not wish to hear of just the largest maximum tank size they must have. Too often hobbyists just listen to the one person who agree with them on their project. I promise you that I seen this all to often in the past years. The same thing goes on the average maximum growth of a zebra eel in a home aquarium. Only a very few handful do grow as large as 4.5'. But if you get those who zebra eel only grown to as large as 3 to 3.5', they im afraid may disagree with your opinion on the matter of growth size.


As far as total darkness, that is a bit exaggerated and overgeneralized.
No, I not overstated anything, and not had made a sweeping statement about something, or to draw too a general conclusion about something on the basis of limited or incomplete evidence, for my understandings in this is from years of researching and personal hands on, to do with a great number of eel species. Water quality and diet in this are two of the main factors of many years of great success. For you surely know as well, that these eels just not live only a few years, but decades.

In saying that, how many hobbyists you know, who a zebra moray for more then 12 years?

If I was to go with a zebra eel, of the one were talking about, im sure that it would grow as near to its normal maximum size. It be just like the same thing as im looking to put together in keeping a pair of ribbons. I will first make sure of what natural part of their diet I will have.

In my first few years in keeping eels, I not done the part in supplying them lair, and the eels had total darkness. For once I began this, eels in the long term not stressed any, as well as not over stocking and feeding.

So, it is really a conclusion of your own, in making an assumption on the matter, rather then personal background.

So understand, eels can not tell you on what their happy or not happy about, we need to do things and see ourselves in how we would feel. Sorry, but within the limits in my abilities to best explain myself, I at most times not get across everything as exactly as I might had liked too. But that in noway deflects on my personal knowledge/background to do with eels.


Yes, unlike years ago when I use to answer any and all questions that is to do with eels, these days in the forums, I respond to a few, and all others I do in a email or on the phone.

The majority of eels feed only after dust, that there be not a mystery, as a good number that will hunt both, night and day. Most of the eels are rarely ever seen.


One thing, though, should be carefully considered is the stability of the materials used when constructing their "caves," since these animals have considerable strength (and not to mention they typically dig a bit, as well).
Yes indeed, you might had viewed my thread on that exact idea, that after some 55 years, the one thing I always known that could happen, did. The male dragon that I sold with the female, after keeping for more then 14 years, sold to a private zoo keeper. I told this I believe to one other who had the idea to use eggcrate, and place a few LR on top. The male dragon which I sold, was able to shift 50 lbs if not more, then its on body weight. As we can both agree on, their bodies are very strong, and I use only LR. As you put it, their considerable strength, this I known many years ago ;)

Much of the things I been telling others, are being proved by others who do field research. On one such detailed facts listed, back in the late 90`s, one thing that I been saying for so long was said by another, and I was mentioning those facts, a number of decades before.

This took me to type, two hours, so answer to only what facts you truly wish to speak of. If this is to go nowhere, I like to see so that I not put in so many hours and it be nothing but time wasted.

Buddy ><{{{{">

[MLEgirl]

Yes, the eel I was planning on mixing with a snowflake eel is "Gymnomuraena zebra".....I figured I would have best luck mixing these two species, and my boyfriend and I have done much research, finding a good many people who have this combo on Monsterfishkeepers.com, some have these two species and a few others.

If not a zebra moray what other eel could I possibly have fair chance of success with?

If zebra/ snowflake is the only combo I would have any decent chance of success with than perhaps I will hold off on the mixing of the morays until I get a larger tank.

thank you both for your time.

[OldManOfTheSea]

MLEgirl, Like i said, you can be quite successful in keeping these two eels, the long term issues in this is what be more in question. I hope that you understand me in the facts that im trying to get across to you. You must have seen so many others who have or had eels, and for most in this, not feed their eels a variety and nutritional foods. For the most I seen from so many in this was, they only viewed this in what they were doing at the moment, not in what the long term health will be of that species.

Those two, even that the zebra can grow all that much larger then the sfe, the sfe in this case is the more aggressive. Do please understand, that eels are aggressive, no matter in what the family species be. But rather, their aggressiveness is rather with limits.

Allow me to cover this in some other way, for eels, they are extremely docile creatures, with a very few in these, that attack other marine species, with the intent to kill, what if it be for territory, or food purposes. The Wolf moray eel, not speaking of the blenny, but rather of its larger cousin who head in size, can match that of a human. This eel, when it moves around, looking for a new lair, and if it comes upon one of its own, that lair will belong too the one that is the largest and strongest.

Now you can have a limited amount of success, if that be what you want? For I stand by my comments on that if so many others truly feed their zebra eels crab, besides all the other things they were feeding, they might had a far better ending to it. I not as yet, witness many in doing this, besides, the eel lives for many years, not just 5,10 or 15 years. Where as some species do only live that long, but the life span from one eel to another will not be as the same, other then as if in the same species range.

Many freshwater eels, has near the same life span, as of marine dwarf morays. most freshwater eels are being farm raised, the numbers today from the last I known, has to be staggering. As well, marine eels in this reproduction matter, has declined in numbers, where as freshwater eels are not.

On any thoughts to your request, on any other you can manage in the same tank, your choices can be many, depending on what other inhabitants your planning on. See, with those two eels, your a wider selection in what type of fish you can mix in, with any other, this range can be shorten quite a bit. But if you really want ideas to some other eel species, I will look to take the time to review what ideas I might suggest. It may also prove to be helpful if you list what other fish you and your husband had planed on.

But eels as I said, be the most hardest of any other marine creatures you might ever keep.

Like i said, you can be quite successful in keeping these two eels, the long term issues in this is what be more in question. I hope that you understand me in the facts that im trying to get across to you. You must have seen so many others who have or had eels, and for most in this, not feed their eels a variety and nutritional foods. For the most I seen from so many in this was, they only viewed this in what they were doing at the moment, not in what the long term health will be of that species.

Those two, even that the zebra can grow all that much larger then the sfe, the sfe in this case is the more aggressive. Do please understand, that eels are aggressive, no matter in what the family species be. But rather, their aggressiveness is rather with limits.

Allow me to cover this in some other way, for eel, they are extremely docile creatures, with a very few in these, that attack other marine species, with the intent to kill, what if it be for territory, or food purposes. The Wolf moray eel, not speaking of the blenny, but rather of its larger cousin who head in size, can match that of a human. This eel, when it moves around, looking for a new lair, and if it comes upon one of its own, that lair will belong too the one that is the largest and strongest.

Now you can have a limited amount of success, if that be what you want? For I stand by my comments on that if so many others truly feed their zebra eels crab, besides all the other things they were feeding, they might had a far better ending to it. I not as yet, witness many in doing this, besides, the eel lives for many years, not 5,10 or 15 years. Where as some species do only live that long, but the life span from one eel to another will not be as the same, other then as if in the same species range.

Many freshwater eels, has near the same life span, as of marine dwarf morays. most freshwater eels are being farm raised, the numbers today from the last I known, has to be staggering. As well, marine eels in this reproduction matter, has declined in numbers, where as freshwater eels are not any.

On any thoughts to your request, on any other you can manage in the same tank, your choices can be many, depending on what other inhabitants you planning on. See, with those two eels, your a wider selection in what type of fish you can mix in, with any other, this range can be shorten quite a bit. But if you really want ideas to some other eel species, I will look to take the time to review what ideas I might suggest. It may also prove to be helpful if you list what other fish you and your husband had planed on.

But eels as I said, be the most are the most hardest of any other marine creature you might ever keep.

I look into some threads at monsterfishkeepers, few where talking about eels, and seen nothing myself of having the same mixer as what you are looking to do, but it can still work. If you can not feed crabs as well, even at fresh sea food market, not go to just any store for this. If you find that your not happy with the odor or color texture, then don't feed it to your eels. Live marine crab may be best, but if you can manage getting the eel to feed on none live (marine) crab, it would still be ok, but do be careful on food poisoning your eel.

I need to close this for now, I will check back to see what fish you listed on planning to have.

Buddy :)

PS. Sorry if I covered the same issue more then once and of my typing grammar.

Im off to order pizza for some little kids

[MLEgirl]

The other fish hoped to go into the tank were a volitan lion and a polleni grouper.If we could find a goldline soapfish we would purchase one but cannot find one anywhere.

When we searched for key words such as "morays" and "eels" in the marine section of MFK we find a number of threads referring to the mixing of morays, this being a nice picture from one borrowed by member "DBjunkie" who has an excellent moray community.

[OldManOfTheSea]

Im not much time to say as much as I would like, but in that photo, I see a sfe, whitemouth, (I think I see a zebra and im not sure at this time, but another looks to be a possibly a juvenile tess moray) And that face on the far right side, looks to be a blackedge moray.

I may be wrong on a tess is in that tank, but a blackedge moray, when growing, will kill the others when hungry, it has the ability to rip chunks of meat of from other fish, as the yellowhead moray can do as well.

If your a link to this person tank, I like to see it better. Now know this, you can make things work out rather well, but the idea of that kind of mix and being juveniles as well, it not will have the same effect when their adults. Like the dragon moray eel, they will house together at first, but once their entering their adult stages, they prefer their own lairs. Eels are intelligent animals, when young juveniles, they find security in their numbers. I need to get back to my grandchildren now, so see if you can provide a link to the person tank in that photo. And do ask any question you would like to, in order for you to make your decision.

I see that photo is like seven years old, he might not even have those eels today

Buddy

[OldManOfTheSea]

Under the name you giving, I had to look through the forum, couldn't run a search, not unless I sign up. But here he mentions only two eels that he has, and he also said in this post, that his doing the saltwater hobby for only two years now. That photo you found, couldn't be his, put maybe he found it from another hobbyist tank and wanted to have the photo.

The only thread I was able to find>


DB junkie 03-04-2008, 1:42 PM
Need help..... Newby to Saltwater Ick

I have kept saltwater for about 2 years. Never had any troubles with any kind of diseases until now.

The tank is a 125. Filter is almost the same size as the tank. Temp home for 5 morays 3 volitans 2 triggers a H.S. crab and a puffer.

The 125 originally had 2 morays 3 volitans and a trigger. Been that way for 3 months...NO troubles. I recently aquired 3 morays another trigger H.S. crab and a puffer.... Way overstocked I know but before splitting up the tank I wanted to get all the plumbing on thier new homes done.

2 days ago I noticed what appeared to be a few spots on the clown trigger. Assuming it was stress related (from the new humu trigger) Last night I noticed it has spread to the puffer and the lions.

I need advice on how to treat. I'm unsure as to whether or not morays can get ick. Should I just hypo the entire tank or do I leave the Morays in it and move the other fish to a qt tank and do the hypo on the qt tank? Maybe treat the qt tank with cupremine? Possible freshwater dip on the way over to qt?

ANY advice would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!!!!!!!


So from reading that thread he post, tells me that he not have that same mixer of eels. If he still do somehow have those eels, their not all in the same tank. But like I said, you can do most anything at the start of what project you do, and if that project is to have a mixer of eel species, do take great caution for what might seem its doing well, is only what your seeing in the short term, while the eels are still a smaller size, in comparison to their adult stages, they all will not accept one another as they once did. It is always easy for one to post a thread with a number of eels together, but then again, I say that people in no way think of the long term consequences in their decision.

Besides, all too often I seen others who posted a thread just like the image you attached here, I no longer seen them having all those eels as well. So please do know, that you can do most anything here, but the main ticket in the idea will be, will it out well? In the long term!

I not remember if I told you this, just like so many in RC, doing crazy things. This one person, he had a 180 with a sfe and zebra, with two tess morays. He wanted that I show him proof that it wouldn't work, and it was only because he had the eels together for a few months at that time. I told him, you want proof, you will have your own proof in this when the tess eels swallow up the other two eels. Shortly after sometime, he never posted about his tess eels again.

So do be aware that it is always easy for anyone to show you a whole load of eels together, you need to always look at it in the long term success in doping such a project. I for many years in the middle of my hobby years, for some 35 years I had , with few fish. I keep at any giving time frame back then, up to seven eels at a time. I sold or traded in, when i wanted to get some other species. I found that it gave me a get deal of knowledge from one eel species to another, for there will always be some differences from one species to the next. I even kept one such eel, that its slime coat is actually with a toxin. I kept it by itself. I was only able to pass that eel to an aquarium zoo, after keeping it for seven years.

Also, the name you said, DB junkies able to find under him, he says in it that his doing the salt hobby for only two years, so that photo couldn't be his. I like to see the link, to where you got it from.


polleni grouper (Cephalopholis polleni) (Harlequin hind) Will grow larger then a foot.

goldline soapfish< I some how not seem to recognize this name, it might not be the correct name for the fish, the name did however make me think of the Goldline Blenny, but I think that you not meant this fish..

Now let me say something else here, you been looking to more or less have the sfe with a zebra moray, I have to say that there be much risk in having either of these eels with a large grouper, for there happens to be two main enemies that the eel has to be on the look out for, a larger eel, and a grouper. So if your to mix groupers with eels, one thing you will first require, is a huge tank, with lots of LR.
Also, in that photo when I look again, that eel I thought might be a tess, could be a yellowhead moray>

Buddy :)

[MLEgirl]

I can not find the thread which you posted, but when I go to the SW forums and search for mixing morays this is one of the first threads I find:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166054&highlight=moray

His camera could have an incorrect date on it as mine often does because I often don't care to correct it if the batteries go out or whatnot.

This is getting a bit off topic though and the original question was simply if I might have success mixing a snowflake and a zebra moray in a 90 gallon for about a year and then on to a 125-180 after that, possibly permanently.

As for the soapfish I was incorrect in the name posted here it is goldribbon soapfish,Aulacocephalus temminckii, there was once one in my doctors office.....now I cannot find one anywhere and he says he got his off of aquabid.

[OldManOfTheSea]

I am confused now, he said in that other thread he done, that his been in the hobby for only two years now, and the date on that photo you found, is dated at 1/15/01. If your a member there, why don't you ask him about that photo? Ask him to ID all five eels and where they are now. Because, the more I look at that photo, im to believe more and more that eel is a yellowhead moray (gymnothorax fimbriatus), and the whitemouth moray is without question. The photo isn't a real great picture, but from what I can tell or feel it is, that eel on the far right in the photo is a blackedge. I could be wrong, being that im not 100% sure of it.

You readied of my idea,to keep myself a pair of ribbon eels, this idea will not go into plan, until after I well started my 180 gal SPS reef tank first, and then, the tank for the ribbons, will first need to be completely setup before the eels ever arrive. But first thing first, im to see what live stock prey I can get for them, and how much. If im happy about the total price, I would first then need to add another 4" of sand bed, with two 3" pvc pipe. Then be fully stock with soft corals, and a limited amount of live food for the eels.

So do ask him about those eels in that photo is as what I think it to be, im sure that something had to happen before he gotten rid of some of them. I still find it strange that he just said that he been in this hobby for two years, and that image is dated back seven years ago.

I hope that your not thinking to go with those same eels yourself??!!

Here is that thread where he admit of his time keeping saltwater tanks>
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127643

I had a hard time in finding it again, LOL


This is getting a bit off topic though and the original question was simply if I might have success mixing a snowflake and a zebra moray in a 90 gallon for about a year and then on to a 125-180 after that, possibly permanently.
When you pasted his thread, or photo, I was very concern if you will try something like that as well. So back on the talk of what if it be ideal or not, and it is an ideal project. You said that you can get a 180 gal tank, that would be great. But are you also in thought to have soft corals? Now know this as well, you will need to have your salinity up there somewhere, 1.024-5.

And in doing this, maintain very low readings on your tank nitrate levels, untraceable levels would be more preferable. Maintain both, the Ph and nitrates, with the other things you would need top do, and you would have yourself some healthy eels, and lets not forget the eels diet program, for everything in keeping these eels, plays a role in the long term. Know this, if you and your husband could maintain the highest in water quality, you would not even require any vitamins. I never in all my years used any vitamins for my eels.

So it is water quality, a variety and nutritional diet program, and you should know the rest. Another thing, I when only keeping four eels in the two tank system, a 70 and 130 gal tanks, with a 40 gal sump. I do a weekly water change of 30 gals, I never had any nitrates traces for many years.

On the snowflake and a zebra moray in a 90 for about a year, first it would depend much on their size when you get them. For, they could grow and already be in each others way, this will not be any helpful. So allow me to suggest to you something. Why not get one the eels, and I might suggest the zebra, and get it no larger then perhaps 2'.

When all is said and done, when you finally get a sfe, you want that the zebra be somewhat larger. Also, when the new 180 is about ready for the eels, you not place the zebra in the 180, until your the sfe, they will both move around to investigate their new home, and remember, have some protective cover over the overflow box, and I will need to ask you of your plans for a full cover, or your planning on a canopy? For the powerheads in your tank for its water currents, I suggest the maxi pumps.

But lets say your right, that he could manage to change the date before taking the picture, he would only then proving me right in what im saying, for he didn't even manage to keep those eels for two years

Buddy

[MLEgirl]

Okay thanks for all your help,

I will do as you suggest,and get the zebra eel.Maybe I will decide later not to get a sfe if the moray is interesting enough on its own, who knows.

If I were to choose only to go with a single moray, is there a more interesting species you would suggest to go with my current planned stocklist, or would you still suggest zebra?

Do you know of the goldribbon soapfish,Aulacocephalus temminckii?

I can not find info on it anywhere, but as I mentioned saw one in my doctors office not too long ago.Should I a make a new thread regarding info on the soapfish?

[OldManOfTheSea]

goldribbon soapfish can or could make a meal out of either the eels you are looking more to have, and besides all that, the Aulacocephalus temminckii will grow faster and larger then both ells, and fishes like this, look to prey on large octopus after their young hatched, they rip off pieces of flesh of the octopus and depending on how large either eel be, it will most likely swallow them whole. Sorry :headshake2:

[OldManOfTheSea]

I will do as you suggest,and get the zebra eel.Maybe I will decide later not to get a sfe if the moray is interesting enough on its own, who knows.

My suggestion on getting the zebra moray first, was only based on that you would later on, get yourself a SFE. It is only my suggestion in what I would do, being that your not the tank space as yet for both eels. It is as I was saying,the SFE will fair far better you and your husband is dead set on a single eel. Remember what I said, you need crab for both eels, but the SFE not as often pull a hunger stike, in comparison to the zebra moray. The both of you, need to select an eel of your choice, not what another suggests only. If I knew of other fish you be likely interested in, I might be able to make to you both, an eel selection. But large fishes as far aggressive species, you will not want to have, that idea is far better for even larger tank systems then a 180 or 240.

That is my opinion for the situation, ideas will differ from one hobbyist to another. Im not in the knowing if you realize just how many eel species there is. A matter a fact, a new species was discovered down in Mexico just early this years. You and your husband, can have yourselves a greater selection in mind to what you might possibly have. But fishes like the larger soap or grouper fishes, will and could become a treat to your eel. I've known groupers to even that the eel they tried to eat, couldn't fit into their jaw and stomachs, and all the do then is to spit them out, and they die.

But groupers and eels are the main treat to other eels, of course, even sharks and rays prey on many eels as well.
The two of you need to make a complete selection of fish that you might get, of course, you won't be able to get every fish you think of. Also, try to keep the fish away from the far aggressive species. Other wise, you will need a 240 or larger, for do keep one thing in mind, your tank inhabitants have no place to go to get away from the other. So as the species grows, their aggression behavior will heighten.

Im hoping that your time as well, for my computer is having some problems, and the time if my computer to be in for repairs, I will have little time on my daughters computer to go through a wide selection of eels, This is something I not done in a long time now, sense the time I was known under another screen name.

So im assuming that you and your husband have the time, the 90 not setup as yet? I know that the 180 isn't up >

Buddy