mouthbreeders

[josh131]

I am getting some mbuna mouthbreeders from africa that live in Lake Malawi. How should I set up my tank? I want to have java fern. How many males and females should I have in a 20 gallon tank. Thanks.

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

well id go for e.yellows and e.blues both quiet peaceful fish

id go 1 male 4 females for both but you will still need a bigger tank no matter what

[josh131]

What does e. mean and what if I dont get a bigger tank?

[PumaWard]

I believe that the e stands for electric. If you don't want to get another tank, then you should think about smaller fish, or the ones you want to get might not be happy.

[Oscar_Wild]

In my experience, you can use controlled overstocking with mbuna, as long as you have adequate filtration.

[jimbo]

Unless you consider a larger tank like a 55 minimum, I would stay away from Mbunas.
However, even with a 55, more than 3 or 4 males with 2 females would be the absolute maximum.
Those creatures use up a lot of space while creating there territory and some of them will defend it pretty fiercely
"Controlled overstocking,” as Oscar_Wild said, will be reached with 2 males and 2 females in a 20. (IMO even with 1 male and 2 females).
My advise; Look for a 55 or bigger if you want Malawi cichlids.
If you stay with the 20 gal. read upon some "Shellies" from Lake Tanganyika. They are just as colorful (if not more), and display some interesting behavior too.

Jimmy

[JSchmidt]

Controlled overstocking works, but only to a point. In a 20, there just isn't enough swimming space for overstocking to work. Overstocking only works when there's enough room for a fish to get distracted as it's chasing a target fish. A 20 isn't big enough and the aggressor will never lose sight of the target, who then gets run ragged or beat up. A 55 is minimum for overstocking, and even that has too narrow a footprint for overstocking to work really well.

A 20 is simply too small for keep any sort of mbuna. Sorry.

Jim

[valerie]

I also agree that a 20g is too small for any mbuna. I just recently got some shell dwellers(n.ocellatus"blue") and can tell you they are really cool and have nice colors.

[josh131]

The mbuna I'm getting is Pseudotropheus Demasoni and It grows to 7 to 8 centimeters. The person Im getting them from succesfully overstocks them in a 30 gallon tank. I dont know if this info makes a difference but is a 20 gallon still to small? Thanks.

[valerie]

Ps. demasoni would not be a good choice

[josh131]

I think I will research a 50 gallon tank or bigger. Is 50 or so good?

[JSchmidt]

You could keep a nice colony of demasoni in a 55.

Jim

[Verse914]

are we talking about a 20 long, or a 20 high?

Either way, demasoni and S. fryeri(electic blues) are out.

Id go with shelldwellers.

[josh131]

The 20 is long and high.

[scholar]

20g is 20g. it is either tall or long. the africaaners need long tank for swimming.

Even in 50G tank, you are limited to smaller mbunas and only like 8-10.

The tank choice for any fish goes like this.

Get the biggest tank you have space and money for. Then research hard and add the minimum numkber of fish you would be happy with. That should be good set up.

I started with a 50G. i now only recommend 6 foot long tanks as minimum for africaaners. :)

[JSchmidt]

Hard to argue with the scholar (I mean, he IS a scholar, after all! ;) ) but I disagree about need a 6 foot tank for africans. That's not bad advice for larger Haps, but mbuna will do fine in 75, which is only 4' long. A 55 is OK, but the extra footprint of a 75 really helps.

The concensus, it seems, is that a 20 (or even a 30) is too small.

Best,
Jim

[Verse914]

I agree. A 4 footer would be the minimum. There are plenty of 55 gallon mbuna and Aulonocara setups that work great.

[josh131]

I found a 55 gallon tank at walmart for $160.00. How many Pseudotropheus demasoni can I have in a 55 gallon if I get a really nice bio wheel filter? Thanks.

[rdmpe]

I have 11 mbuna in a 55g including two demasoni, plus a slowly building stock of babies...

My tank has a very extensive rock network and I have not had any aggression problems. You'll need to choose the right substrate and rock too. Aragonite or coral sand substrates will help keep your ph and hardness in the right range. And limestone based rock will also do the same. They like to dig caves under the rock so make sure the rocks are sitting solidly on the bottom (on egg crate) so it doesn't topple over on them. Also the sand brings this interesting behaviour out. It is very interesting watching them suck up sand, swim somewhere else and spit it out. I regularly have sand up on top of soem of the high rocks, but can't figure out which one is putting it up there. I'm not sure if I'd see this behaviour with crushed coral substrate.

As for filters, I have two eheim 2213 canisters on it. I'd recommend them over the emperors (which I've also had several of). I have to do lots of water changes to try to keep a handle on the nitrAtes. I have a decent colony of Malaysian trumpet snails that help with the algae. They are a great addition to just about any tank IMO. I have a couple of sword plants in there that are doing pretty well. The water is too hard for most plants though AFAIK.

For contrast, I think I'd go with maybe a male and 4 fem demasoni and maybe the same with yellow labs. I think read somewhere that demasoni are difficult/impossible to sex though - not sure...

Good luck!

[JSchmidt]

Mbuna are diggers, and you'll see digging behavior whether you use gravel, crushed coral or aragonite sand. That makes it very important to avoid placing rockwork on top of the substrate. The chances of a rockslide are too great if you do that.

I've never had any luck keeping demasoni in small numbers. They always pick off each other, one at a time. I've had much better luck, and few losses, keeping them in numbers of at least 9-12. Demasoni can be sexed - by venting - but you have to know what you're doing. Also, the females are as aggressive as the males, so the normal male-female ratio suggestions don't hold up with demasoni, IME.

I agree that yellow labs are good tankmates. They seem to get along fine with demasoni and the colors contrast nicely.

HTH,
Jim

[josh131]

I am geeting the fish from my aunt and she has yellow labs with them. I was wondering what other things could go with them. Things like frogs and other cool things. I will get a 55 gallon tank. Also what kind of gravel should I get and how much? Thanks.

[scholar]

In small set ups,55G, or bigger set up too. I prefer Saulosi's to Demasoni's. Because the female is tangerine color, male is black and blue. SO You get three colors rather one. ALso they are relatively mild like e. yellow. :) Theya re rambunctus like demasoni's. though not killers like them.

One could say that I am a Salusi man. :):)

PS: get a six footer and you will not be sorry. The height of the tank is immaterial. The length is most important. That's why i am quoting in feet rather gallons.

[Verse914]

Originally posted by josh131
I am geeting the fish from my aunt and she has yellow labs with them. I was wondering what other things could go with them. Things like frogs and other cool things. I will get a 55 gallon tank. Also what kind of gravel should I get and how much? Thanks. A 55 gallon will do great. You can use crushed coral or play sand. Either one will work fine. If you need the extra buffer then you can go with the crushed coral. I wouldnt put frogs in with them either...the cichlids will just tear them up. Ive seen people put clown loaches in with their cichlids and theyve done fine.

[josh131]

What is play sand? If I want to use cotrolled overstocking then will I need a nice filter like a bio wheel? For extra efficiency should I use a filter made for a bigger tank in there? Also could I get some of those big snails or is that a bad idea. Thanks.

Please anwer.