Urgent help: sick angel

[abcdefghi]

My wife just called and told me that my largest angelfish is floating all around the tank this morning, acting lethargic, floats to the top, then sinks down again. I had been treating for possible columnaris and he was improving and back to his normal self. He has had 2 white spots on his pectoral fin, not ich, and not fungus either.

Since I treated with Maracyn/Maracyn 2 he had been acting normal, I changed about 50% tank water on Saturday and yesterday he was fine, eating normal etc. This morning when I looked into the tank (although it was dark, I could just about see him and he came to the front of the glass).

Is this possibly swim bladder? is there anything I can do? I am stuck at work until 5:30pm, but if there is anything (don't have any frozen peas) that I can get my wife to do at home I would appreciate it.

thanks.

[Blueiz]

What are your water parameters? Using those antibiotics, it could have detrmentally affected your biological filter causing an ammonia spike? Also, what is the temperature of the tank?

[abcdefghi]

The tank temp is 78F, last time I tested ammonia and nitrite were 0 and nitrate was around 5-10ppm. All other fish in the tank (rummynose tetra, cory cats) are acting fine.

[rich815]

.....last time I tested ammonia and nitrite were 0 and nitrate was around 5-10ppm.

And last time was when?

[abcdefghi]

And last time was when?

Would have been Thursday last week (treatment with Maracyn/Maracyn 2 finished on Tuesday).

[rich815]

Would have been Thursday last week (treatment with Maracyn/Maracyn 2 finished on Tuesday).

I definitely check ammonia again, and a good 50% water change might help stabilize or flush out something in the water that may be bothering him.

[Star_Rider]

Definitely with antibiotics being used.. keep tabs on the parameters.

some have a detrimental effect on the bacteria in the filters.

aside from that.. since the angel was on a treatment course I would suspect that it may still be suffering.

swim bladder problems can be caused by a number of things including internal infection.

I would keep an eye on the water params..and keep the water clean. if you have finished the course of meds wait a few days to see if there is improvement.

[abcdefghi]

Just head that he has improved slightly since this morning, will keep my fingers crossed that its something as simple as constipation.

[abcdefghi]

Got home last night and found the angel acting fine, he came right up to the glass, I opened the top and he pretty much jumped out as usual trying to convince me that he had not eaten in weeks. Swimming around fine, this morning I looked in through the darkness and again he was swimming around fine.

Weird. Going to be keeping a close eye on him.

[noodles62]

Good to hear! I would hate to lose my angel.....

[abcdefghi]

This is getting weird, my wife now tells me he is acting strange again.

[Star_Rider]

possible it was still recovering and may be on the home stretch

[rich815]

Angels are strange. I had one jump out of my tank once, when I found it he was still alive but barely. Held him in front of the filter output and he recovered fine and was swimming about, then 2 hours later: dead. My remaining one has been fine for 9 months now but about a week ago started hiding more (when in the past was very open and out there) and now has chosen a corner to just sit in (not hidden, just in the corner). Now it seems she has not eaten in about 3-4 days, even when bloodworms are right in front of her face. And she seems to be breathing harder lately. All the other fish are fine in the tank. She does seem to move around a bit more when the lights go out, or later in the day, but no eating has me concerned. Angels....go figure.

[Star_Rider]

rich you may want to post the tank parameters.

FYI, angels have been associated with a couple internal parasites. (Camallanus, capillaria)

check this out for more info.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_FA091

[DrNo]

We've talked about watching water parameters with the Maracyns previously. With the water changes required immediately after conclusion of the course (which I'm assuming you did) and by keeping a close eye on ammonia and nitrite, I doubt that your nitrifying bacteria bed is still compromised (especially since the last course treatment was many days ago).

The fact that the angel showed clear improvment while on the antibiotics supports the argument that the angel was definitely fighting a bacterial bug. However, as in humans, one disease can bring out others due to weakened immune system (e.g. parasitic infections). Or, the disease may have been under control while he was on the antibiotic, but has since re-bounded.

IMO, you have a couple of options:

1) If you believe that the symptoms are similar to her earlier odd behavior, consider the fact that the antibiotic infection has still not been adequately treated. You could do anoter treatment round with a wide spectrum antibiotic, but I would NOT use the same combo of Maracyns you've used thus far. I recommend Seachem's Kanaplex (kanamycin) as it has great broad spectrum gram +/- coverage. As an added benefit, kanamycin will NOT harm your biological filter. A tetracycline, etc. is also an option. Either way, turn off your UV (if present) and ditch any carbon in the filter.

2) If you believe this is something new, consider that a parasite may be involved (as star_rider suggests) and start broad coverage treatment using a product like Jungle, etc.

I don't have any personal experience with Angels, so I wish I could be of more direct assistance in identifying exactly what you're fighting here. I'm glad that those posters who do are chiming in. Either way, I would do daily water changes from this point forward and urge you to consider doing a full QT until you figure out what's going on.

Keep us posted!

EDIT: Forgot option 3: Ride it out with "watchful waiting". However, given the streay decline in recent days, I consider this a higher risk option.

[Star_Rider]

if it is either capillaria or camillanus those meds may prove useless.
fenbendazole or levamisole Hcl are the choice drugs.

it could still be an internal bacterial infection ..but the maracyn/maracy2 should have proved effective.

[DrNo]

if it is either capillaria or camillanus those meds may prove useless.
fenbendazole or levamisole Hcl are the choice drugs.

it could still be an internal bacterial infection ..but the maracyn/maracy2 should have proved effective.

Clarirication for subsequent readers.... camillanus and capillaria are nematode parasites. Antihelminth drugs like fenbendazole (Panacur) are ideal for this purpose.

The option for a course of kanamycin, etc. is for treatment of suspected lingering bacterial infection.

Few drugs have efficacy for both classes in humans; metronidazole (Flagyl) is one such drug for humans. Seachem does sell it for aquarium use. Here's a table from the Seachem website that might help you in choosing a treatment course:

http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#metro

http://www.aquatichouse.com/Man%20Logos/seachem.jpg (http://www.seachem.com/products/medications.html)

Medication
Types of Infections Treated


Parasitic
Fungal
Bacterial
Viral
Aquazole (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#aqua)
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif


http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif


Cupramine (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#cupra)
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif




Focus (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#focus)


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http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif


KanaPlex (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#kana)


http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif


Metronidazole (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#metro)
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif


http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif


NeoPlex (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#neo)


http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif


ParaGuard (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#para)
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
PolyGuard (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#poly)
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif


Sulfathiazole (http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/seachemmedications.asp#sulfa)
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http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif
http://www.aquatichouse.com/Medications_Files/small_bullet.gif



Sulfathiazole might be a good choice here, although I have no personal experience with it.

[abcdefghi]

Well this is now officially weird........... I am working from home today, and so can watch the angel all day long. He has been swimming around fine, but then I noticed him laying on his side floating around, I then notice that its right where my rummynose tetras are, almost like he is either playing or hunting them. Its weird, also watching him sink down in the one corner its a very deliberate movement, he then makes his way back up, either lays in the filter flow and then swims off, it really is like he is trying to entertain himself somehow?

[DrNo]

Wow, that is odd. Side floating/swimming sounds suspicious to me though (bladder disease). Any headstanding? I have no experience with Angels... is this kind of behavior possible in these species?

[abcdefghi]

He does sometimes headstand, but has always done this since I first got him. Some of the angels I have seen mine swim at are crazy, especially when they are trying to get food.

I dropped in some algae wafers once for my corys, a part of it went inside a cave that was too short for the angel to fit, somehow he swam in there sideways enough to pull out the wafer and eat it. Right now he is picking at some (I think) brown algae that is on the glass.

[Star_Rider]

Angels are ambush predators. mine hide in tall vegetation and may even swim sideways to get under vegetation and may suspend there.
still keep an eye on it.
contrary to popular belief.. I have a large one that plays in the out put of the pump from the sump.

swims up to the output..turns sideways and shoots out

it's weird
it actually tries to swim into the current from time to time. it also can dart across the 75 in the flash of an eye

[abcdefghi]

Angels are ambush predators. mine hide in tall vegetation and may even swim sideways to get under vegetation and may suspend there.
still keep an eye on it.
contrary to popular belief.. I have a large one that plays in the out put of the pump from the sump.

swims up to the output..turns sideways and shoots out

it's weird
it actually tries to swim into the current from time to time. it also can dart across the 75 in the flash of an eye

I am going to keep a close eye on mine, but I am seriously starting to think he is playing around in the filter flow, chasing tetras, I saw him chase a cory cat just now, I hope he does not think he can eat one! lol

[abcdefghi]

Can't edit.......... I think his personality has changed, I just cleaned some algae with the algae scraper and he came towards it like he thought it was a threat of some kind.

[RedScare]

When my Discus sleep/rest they kinda float around in the tank. Sometimes up to the top then slowly down again. One of them sleeps on her side. This all weirded me out a bit but I know they are healthy cause they are breeding, eating, fighting, and this has been going on for about a year.

[abcdefghi]

Is it possible for a male angel in one tank to recognize a gravid female in another tank? I am noticing this angel acting aggressive towards its tank mates, cory cats and tetras, usually he ignores them completely. I have also seen him appear to be cleaning some leafs on a sword plant I have in there, and I am pretty sure I can see his ovipositur (sp).

In my 29G I have a male and female, and they are getting ready to spawn for the 3rd time (cleaning their amazon sword, female is getting fat).

[DrNo]

Is it possible for a male angel in one tank to recognize a gravid female in another tank? I am noticing this angel acting aggressive towards its tank mates, cory cats and tetras, usually he ignores them completely. I have also seen him appear to be cleaning some leafs on a sword plant I have in there, and I am pretty sure I can see his ovipositur (sp).

In my 29G I have a male and female, and they are getting ready to spawn for the 3rd time (cleaning their amazon sword, female is getting fat).

Wow, wild! I'm really curious to see what the angel experts will say...

[abcdefghi]

Wow, wild! I'm really curious to see what the angel experts will say...

That makes 2 of us, he definitely has his ovipositur visible, and I am 100% sure its a male, pointed vs blunt of females.

[Star_Rider]

Is it possible for a male angel in one tank to recognize a gravid female in another tank? I am noticing this angel acting aggressive towards its tank mates, cory cats and tetras, usually he ignores them completely. I have also seen him appear to be cleaning some leafs on a sword plant I have in there, and I am pretty sure I can see his ovipositur (sp).

In my 29G I have a male and female, and they are getting ready to spawn for the 3rd time (cleaning their amazon sword, female is getting fat).
angel in tanks next to other angel tanks will notice the angles.
I have 3 29's with pairs in my garage.
I have two stands back to back.. the males will face off with males from the other tanks.

they do tend to notice the presence of the other.

[abcdefghi]

Thanks, the tanks are positioned in an L shape from each other, probably about 5 feet apart. It does help to explain some of his behavior lately.