Gradual tank diseases declining my stock - PLEASE HELP!

[msquared]

My fully stocked 20g had four Peppered Corys, four male Guppies, seven Cardinal Tetras, and one female German Blue Ram, and some teeny pond snails (I guess that's what they're called) that probably hitchhiked into the tank on some moss I added. It was happy and healthy for several months, with good water parameters and with 25% water changes at least weekly: ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 20 or less, pH 6.6, GH 75-125, and KH 35; temp is kept at 78*F. It has an Aqueon 20 HOB filter on it, mostly fake plants (one patch of Java Moss) and a sizable chunk of driftwood.

Starting in early July, I've been experiencing gradual illnesses and die-off. It started with one male Guppy developing a very bloated abdomen. He lived that way for 2-3 weeks and then died in July. Then in August, I started losing Cardinal Tetras. I wrote about the beginnings of that here (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162851). At first just the three in question in that thread died, and the rest looked fine. I treated with erythromycin - a full course, as directed. Then a week or so later we lost the rest. I still wasn't too worried, because I know that Cardinals can be weak and no other fish showed problems. But in the last week I've lost two of the four Corys - they each turned very dark all over and became weak and lethargic and eventually went belly-up. There were no spots or other visible symptoms. Now one of my three remaining Guppies is grossly bloated and appears to be going through the same problem that killed the other Guppy, and in both cases there were no spots or obvious other symptoms. I am now down to two Corys, one GBR, and three guppies (one of which is not long for this world).

The symptoms for each species seem different, but it seems hard to believe that there isn't a common cause for all of this. I want to add some stock, but if there's a problem I would like to solve it first. Can anyone identify a common cause for these problems? Otherwise, I have no idea what to fix. All help would be appreciated!

[Star_Rider]

one thing.. consider the species.. cardinals and blue rams mix well with discus and do fine in warm water (78 is a bit on the low side )
what you may have is slow progression of stress induced problems.

both Blue rams and cardinals like pristine water on the warmer end of the spectrum.
personally i would up the temp slowly to 82 and increase water changes to at least 50% weekly.
not sure guppies like the warmer temp but keeping it on the low end may result in issues for warm water species.

see what happens.

[DrNo]

I took a look at the dead fish in your other post, and it looks like the specimen was lost to a bacterial disease. You have some saddle and gill patchiness that suggest it could have been columnaris. The symptoms you're currently describing suggest that there is still a bacterial disease at work (though not necessarily columnaris). There is a good possibility the initial outbreak was brought in with the snails you added to the tank (as the timing is suspicious).

Erythromycin is an OK choice for some gram negatives and many gram positives, but one of the hallmarks of bacterial disease is that in treating for one, you often precipitate the outbreak of another. This is one of the reasons that a course of Maracyn2 (for gram negatives) is strongly suggested to be accompanied by a course of Maracyn (for most gram positives).

The lethargy, darkening, reclusiveness, lack of eating, Hx. of bloating (dropsy like symptoms) and hints of septicemia suggest you have still have an active bacterial process in the tank. You haven't mentioned feces, but I'm guessing they are long and stringy. Quarantine for ill specimens is always a good idea, but you have a small tank and the reality is that most if not all of your specimens are now affected to some degree. I would treat your entire tank with a new round of broad spectrum antibiotic. Erythro is not a good choice at this time. Select another combo for better coverage. Maracyn + Maracyn2 is an option. These are commonly available at most LFS. My personal preference is for Seachem Kanacyn (kanamycin) but it is not easily found. Big Al's sells it online, along with some other good choices by Seachem.

When you use these meds, realize that they can affect the becterial colony in your filter. Daily water changes (50% before adminsitering the antibiotic), 50% water changes after conclusion of the treatment course and close monitoring of the ammonia and nitrite levels are essential. Fresh, clean water will always help accelerate recovery. Remove all filter carbon and turn off UV if present. One of the reasons I like Kanacyn is that it does not have a significant effect on the biological filter. If you use the Maracyns, make sure you watch your water chemistry!

Sorry to hear you're still fighting this; please keep us posted.

[pinkertd]

Erythromycin hits only Gram-positive bacteria. I would have hit them with something for Gram-negative bacteria as well since you don't know precisely what bacteria you're battling. Mardel products are great for working effectively together on gram-positive and gram-negative disease.

[DrNo]

Erythromycin hits only Gram-positive bacteria. I would have hit them with something for Gram-negative bacteria as well since you don't know precisely what bacteria you're battling. Mardel products are great for working effectively together on gram-positive and gram-negative disease.

Echo of my post :iagree: .... It does have effect on certain gram positives and some atypical bugs.

[DrNo]

one thing.. consider the species.. cardinals and blue rams mix well with discus and do fine in warm water (78 is a bit on the low side )
what you may have is slow progression of stress induced problems.


Great point.... however, there is strong suggestion that an active disease process (specifically bacterial) is at work here. My personal preference is to treat if there is suspicion of active disease in order to help save remaining stock.

Raising the temperature will likely accelerate the bacterial growth (as opposed to diseases like Ich where an increase helps accelerate the parasite's life cycle), so proceed with great caution.

[pinkertd]

Raising the temperature will likely accelerate the bacterial growth (as opposed to diseases like Ich where an increase helps accelerate the parasite's life cycle), so proceed with great caution.

And I agree with that! It would not be wise to raise the tank temp until after all disease is gone.

[Star_Rider]

judging from the pics in the other post the bacterial issue could be post mortum
in th Op the sluffing is on the belly(ventral )(Pic 1-3) of the fish not dorsal.

also if stress related to cooler temps the immune system of the fish may be compromised.

while bacteria may do better at a warmer temp the immune system of the fish may not kick in.

we typically do not lower the temp of resident tanks while treating for bacterial infection.

btw DrV good call.

[msquared]

Okay, now I have some info to work with! I had no clue about the gram+/gram- aspects of these meds, so yes I will need to follow up. It makes sense, definitely. I do know the Ram's preference for warmer temps in the literature. I went to 78* primarily to avoid stressing the Corys out too much and also because the LFS where I bought her - which is a cichlid specialist - actually kept their GBR tank at this temp, so I acclimated her at that temp. I think I'll work on the bacteria first, then consider adjusting the temps to 80* for the long-term.

The snails weren't apparent at all in the beginning, so I'm not sure if I imported some eggs or just a couple of small hidden ones. Does anyone think I need to attempt eradicating them entirely? If so, I'll either need to get a new tank started or else get some kind of small Loach that can start dining on them. They're too small for me to pick them all out. Of course, I don't know of any loaches that like 80*F either, but I'm open to suggestions!

Thanks to you all for your input so far. It's very helpful.

[msquared]

judging from the pics in the other post the bacterial issue could be post mortum
in th Op the sluffing is on the belly(ventral )(Pic 1-3) of the fish not dorsal.
Let me clarify: all those pics of the Cardinals were taken while they were still alive. They were sick but still breathing, and one of the two was still swimming right-side up (although nose-down, IIRC). Those first three that eventually died all showed that appearance while they were still pretty active, before they were just laying upside down at the bottom and gasping. So this wasn't post-mortem symptoms in this case. But if I didn't already know any better, I would have thought the same thing!

[KarlTh]

Any spinal deformities or wasting?

[msquared]

Any spinal deformities or wasting?
No wasting of any of the fish. The two guppies with bloated, dropsy-like deformities also developed an upward curvature to their spines when the bloating got severe. However, I assumed this was due to pressure from the bloating - not a separate symptom. None of the other fish had any spine changes at all.

I also forgot to address DrVader's question on the formation of their feces. I haven't noticed this symptom at all for any of the fish in the tank. I've neither seen anything like that hanging from them nor any laying on the bottom.

[msquared]

My personal preference is for Seachem Kanacyn (kanamycin) but it is not easily found.
This is the stuff, right? (http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/KanaPlex.html)

I did find the Mardel products right around the corner, and I'll call around tomorrow on the KanaPlex. If I can find it locally it would be nice to not risk a minicycle. But if I end up using the Mardel combo, I'll just have to keep an eye on things as you suggested.

[DrNo]

This is the stuff, right? (http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/KanaPlex.html)

I did find the Mardel products right around the corner, and I'll call around tomorrow on the KanaPlex. If I can find it locally it would be nice to not risk a minicycle. But if I end up using the Mardel combo, I'll just have to keep an eye on things as you suggested.

Yep, thats the stuff.... good luck and keep us updated!

[DrNo]

Any updates? Hope all is improving.

[msquared]

Well, I found the Kanaplex last night at Malawi Aquatics (great LFS in St. Louis, btw). They sold me the only jar they had - the one they keep in stock in case they need it for their own tanks. I guess that's a good endorsement if they use it themselves. I held out for these because in one week from tomorrow we'll be leaving town for a week, and I didn't want to risk mini-cycling the tank when I wouldn't be there to change the water daily. So I gave the first dose last night by soaking some bloodworms in a very small amount of water with the power in it, and then feeding the bloodworms and distributing the rest through the tank. The Ram gulped the worms and the Corys came out to eat pretty quickly. The Guppies were not so eager, and I don't consider that a good sign. The bloated one, coincidentally, did trail a long, stringy feces behind him last night. He still looks generally active along with one other. As of yesterday, I now have the final Guppy suddenly favoring the very bottom of the tank as if he were a Cory. That's very unusualy behavior, and I gather something is wrong with him now. But he is in all other ways asymptomatic: no bloating or obvious stuff on his scales, normal color, etc. Strange. The two Corys and the Ram so far still look fine in all ways.

So it kind of remains to be seen what will happen. I dose again tomorrow per the instructions, and can (surely will) dose again on Monday, which is then the max treatment they advise. I'll keep updating.

[DrNo]

Glad you were able to find the stuff. When a trusted LFS has to give you their stockpile I suppose it is an encouraging sign :D

It's hard to justify delay in treatment, but with your upcoming trip I think you made a very good choice. Watch your fellas and let us know how they do...

[msquared]

Well, the Guppy who was staying at the bottom died. The bloated one is still swimming pretty normally and mostly stays with his one surviving Guppy tankmate. It may be wishful thinking, but this bloated Guppy may actually be looking a bit better.

So, that leaves me with two Guppies, two Corys, and one Ram, with one Guppy very much questionable. I gave the second dose of Kanaplex today. I'm certainly going to give the third/final dose on Monday. From there I just have to keep the water nice and be hopeful, I guess.

[DrNo]

That's tough... sorry to hear about the loss; obviously too far gone by the initiation of treatment. Guppies are not especially hardy either. Best of luck for improvement and health for the remaining stock.

[msquared]

Sigh...

It's just gotten way worse. I just lost my other two Peppered Corys. They all looked fine yesterday and showed no visual symptoms tonight. They just started swimming erratically - upside down or straight up and down and such - and then just laid at the bottom slowly dying. My Ram is now not acting like herself, either. She's just hiding under the driftwood and not coming over to interact with me like normal. She's not hyperventilating, but she is kind of fluttering her pectoral and dorsal fins. She just doesn't look happy, and I fully expect I'll lose her as well in the next day or two. The Ram was doing well yesterday, coming out to investigate and even nip me during the water change last night. The last two Guppies (one of which is the bloated one) are not as active as normal, but not as obviously sick as the Ram. All of this, and we leave town for eight days on Saturday morning.

Incredibly, all water conditions remain as good as in my first post. I had completed the last antibiotic treatment on Monday. The only thing that changed between yesterday and today is that I did that 25% water change last night. And as I think about it, the last time I lost fish it followed a water change, too. I have not changed this routine for many months: tap water temperature matched to the tank, adding 6 drops/gal of API water conditioner and enough Seachem Acid Regulator to bring the pH to 6.6-6.8 (to match the water in the tank, not to change it). I'm using a plastic bucket that I thoroughly rinse out before filling with new water. I've been doing this at least 6 months, when the tank was thriving. I have always added the extra API drops to ensure against chloramine bonds and prevent whatever heavy metals it controls (I forget what they are). Is there any chance the local water has changed in the last 2-3 months to include something toxic to the fish that the API doesn't eliminate? Any ideas on how to check for this?

Seriously, if I can't find and answer to these issues then I think I will be shutting the tank down for good. I can't keep throwing away time and money, distressing and killing fish, and bumming my kids out like this. To say I'm dissappointed right now would be an understatement.

[DrNo]

I am so sorry to hear about your frustrations. Do you feel like any of the symptoms or the fish's behavior improved during the antibiotic treatment?

I'm glad you have provided some details on the water changes; I do have some comments. I would not use any buffer to attempt to control pH. Fish are very adaptable and will be just fine in most pH's that come out of taps these days. What is the pH of your tapwater? Do you happen to know your KH (carbonate) hardness? This is an important predictor of pH stability. I do think it is odd that the deaths and behavior seem to be occuring with the water changes; it is a distinct possiblity that something is up with the water. API water conditoner does not detoxify heavy metals for example (I believe...) Prime and NovAqua+ water conditioners, etc. do. It is almost impossible to reasonably check for these kind of contaminants in your water. You might consider calling the water company asnd asking them if any changes in water quality may have occurred recently.

Note that any funny water conditions may have stressed the fish and precipitated bacterial illness; that's why I'm curious as to any improvement with the antibiotic and without water changes...

[DrNo]

Just checked the website, and API water conditoner does detoxify metals but does not handle chloramines. This stuff is like chlorine on steroids, and is extremely toxic. Any possibility they changed to using this in our water source? If so, you typically does TWICE the amount of water conditioner or change to a conditioner that does.

[msquared]

I am so sorry to hear about your frustrations. Do you feel like any of the symptoms or the fish's behavior improved during the antibiotic treatment?
Most didn't really show any symptoms. One guppy died in the middle of it, pretty unexpectedly and with no bloating. But otherwise no fish really looked better or worse.


I'm glad you have provided some details on the water changes; I do have some comments. I would not use any buffer to attempt to control pH. Fish are very adaptable and will be just fine in most pH's that come out of taps these days. What is the pH of your tapwater? Do you happen to know your KH (carbonate) hardness? This is an important predictor of pH stability.
The pH of my tap water without treatment is off the chart - it's literally too high to measure. I can't recall the hardness of the straight tap, but it's on the high side, too. My tank has a large (for a 20g tank) piece of driftwood in it that seems to regulate the pH at 6.6-6.8 all the time. Before using the buffer, I would change the water and see a pH spike which would gradually come back down during week. My purpose in using the buffer is not to modify the tank's pH, but rather just to match the new water in the bucket to the water already in the tank. I add it to the water as I fill the bucket from the tap, never to the tank itself. My tank's pH is always stable at 6.6-6.8 and has been since March. I don't think I could manage the tank using this super-basic tap water if I didn't do this, but maybe I'm wrong.

The kH in the tank has been 36ppm since April using the API test, and the GH has been 75-125ppm during that time, all on the low side. I had endeavored to keep the water soft and slightly acidic for both the Ram and the Cardinal Tetras (all now dead). Up 'til recently it seemed to be working well.


API water conditoner does not detoxify heavy metals for example (I believe...) Prime and NovAqua+ water conditioners, etc. do. It is almost impossible to reasonably check for these kind of contaminants in your water. You might consider calling the water company asnd asking them if any changes in water quality may have occurred recently.
I see it doesn't say it on the API site, but the actual bottle of API conditioner does indeed say it breaks chloramine bonds. As you say, you are supposed to use a higher dose. To deal with the metals, you are supposed to go all the way up from 1 drop/gal to 6 drops/gal, which is what I use. I will call the water company as you suggest. You never know.

PS - I really appreciate your willingness to help me troubleshoot here.

[DrNo]

http://www.stcharlescitymo.gov/Departments/PublicWorks/WaterDivision/tabid/445/Default.aspx

I checked out your city's website and couldn't find any indicators one way or the other that they use chloramine treatment. I did discover that te water source originates from a mix of well and river water; well water brings into question the possibility of organic contaminants (common in groundwater for your area due to previous farming). Your source may have changed recently; do you have any idea what your specific water source may be?

Also, any reason to expect another source of contaminant in the tank (heavy metal, new decorations, etc.)?

[msquared]

http://www.stcharlescitymo.gov/Departments/PublicWorks/WaterDivision/tabid/445/Default.aspx

I checked out your city's website and couldn't find any indicators one way or the other that they use chloramine treatment. I did discover that te water source originates from a mix of well and river water; well water brings into question the possibility of organic contaminants (common in groundwater for your area due to previous farming). Your source may have changed recently; do you have any idea what your specific water source may be?

Also, any reason to expect another source of contaminant in the tank (heavy metal, new decorations, etc.)?
I'm not actually in the city limits of St. Charles. I'm unincorporated and we have a separate water district. I don't know the actual source of the water. I haven't added anything else to the tank in many months - no new decorations or any possible source of heavy metals.

[DrNo]

The fact that its a separate district adds an interesting twist... regardless, the pH situation is very odd. If your pH is sky-high off the limits from the tap, I have a hard time believing that driftwood (even a large one) would be enough to drop a pH so high down to 6.6-6.8 I think its more likely that your very low KH is allowing pH swings; with such a dropping pH, a large water change can cause serious stress on fish specimens. Again, this may be the long-term stress we've been looking for. The bacterial infection is likely the result of this (or some other) long term stress. Based on your descripton, I feel that the problem does in fact lie with the water changes.

A better solution than buffering the water added would be to stabilize the KH in the tank itself, and replace KH stabilizing additives as needed when you do a water change. There are many ways of of increasing KH but in your case, I think Sea Chem Buffer, Wonder Shells, or aragonite would be safer than adding baking soda. The Sea Chem Buffer can be used for raising KH (& pH) in freshwater and is preferable in aquariums where baking soda can change the pH too quickly. The calcium and other elements keep a more stable pH and also add minor nutritional elements. This will increase your baseline pH to closer to 7.8 to 8.0, but the important element is that it will be stable. I would not continue to add the buffer to the water that's going with the water changes without first stabilizing that KH in the main tank; that has to be extremely stressful. It may take some tweaking to find the right solution for your tank, but this is sadly the nature of the hobby.

Again, your losses are tough and I know I speak for everyone here in saying that I wish there was more we could do to help you actively. Don't hesitate to PM me and I'll be checking this thread. We're all pullin' for you.

[msquared]

I am really short on time to reply properly right now. I want you to know I've read your latest past, DrVader, and will continue the discussion when I can devote proper time to it. That may be about 12-13 days from now, depending on circumstances. Thanks for everything so far!

[msquared]

I'm finally back in town. The good news is that the Ram and one healthy guppy seem to be happy and healthy. The sort-of-bad news is that the bloated guppy is nowhere to be found. I will have to look in earnest tonight - I'm sure it's dead but I'm just hoping it didn't become fish food for the other two. With only two fish in a 20g tank, the water still looks nice. The Ram is eating and more out front again, so not acting sick like she was when I left. Okay, now for the questions based on your last post, DrVader:

When I first set up the tank, the tap water pH was high but measurable. Over a couple months, the pH gradually came down to 6.8. The very reliable pattern was that with a w/c the pH would climb some and then over the ensuing week the tank pH would lower down back to 6.8. So it appeared that the tank over time was settling there, at 6.8. In an effort to stop the cycle of pH spikes during w/c, I tried the buffer only to match the water in the bucket to that of the tank. I determined the amount of buffer required to do that, and that's what I've been doing ever since. But just to reiterate, I've never added buffer to the tank itself, since as you said I don't want to cause a rapid change in pH or especially hardness (been reading the thread with you and KarlTh's input on lowering tank pH, too). The pH has really always been super-stable for me. I test at least weekly and have never had pH outside of 6.6-6.8. This includes the test at the time of my post #20, right after the last w/c and the death of my last two Corys. My KH and GH also remain very stable all the time. I don’t doubt at all that a low KH could lead to pH swings, but I’m just not seeing it in my own case. Nor did I have any problems following this same procedure for months before July. Is there some way I could be missing this problem?

In the meantime, my tap water seems to have gotten even harder and more basic. So I’m really worried that if I add it to the tank during a w/c it will create big, sudden changes and hurt the fish. And the fish I would like to keep are generally ones that prefer soft, acidic water (like the Ram and Cardinal Tetras). So do you think I should just add the hard, basic tap water and take my chances? If not, do you have any other suggestions? I don’t have an R/O filter at my house, but I could at least try buying several gallons of filtered water from the grocery store and mixing it, I guess. Is that worth trying?

As before, I really appreciate your time and effort in helping me.

[DrNo]

I'm finally back in town. The good news is that the Ram and one healthy guppy seem to be happy and healthy. The sort-of-bad news is that the bloated guppy is nowhere to be found. I will have to look in earnest tonight - I'm sure it's dead but I'm just hoping it didn't become fish food for the other two. With only two fish in a 20g tank, the water still looks nice. The Ram is eating and more out front again, so not acting sick like she was when I left. Okay, now for the questions based on your last post, DrVader:

When I first set up the tank, the tap water pH was high but measurable. Over a couple months, the pH gradually came down to 6.8. The very reliable pattern was that with a w/c the pH would climb some and then over the ensuing week the tank pH would lower down back to 6.8. So it appeared that the tank over time was settling there, at 6.8. In an effort to stop the cycle of pH spikes during w/c, I tried the buffer only to match the water in the bucket to that of the tank. I determined the amount of buffer required to do that, and that's what I've been doing ever since. But just to reiterate, I've never added buffer to the tank itself, since as you said I don't want to cause a rapid change in pH or especially hardness (been reading the thread with you and KarlTh's input on lowering tank pH, too). The pH has really always been super-stable for me. I test at least weekly and have never had pH outside of 6.6-6.8. This includes the test at the time of my post #20, right after the last w/c and the death of my last two Corys. My KH and GH also remain very stable all the time. I don’t doubt at all that a low KH could lead to pH swings, but I’m just not seeing it in my own case. Nor did I have any problems following this same procedure for months before July. Is there some way I could be missing this problem?

In the meantime, my tap water seems to have gotten even harder and more basic. So I’m really worried that if I add it to the tank during a w/c it will create big, sudden changes and hurt the fish. And the fish I would like to keep are generally ones that prefer soft, acidic water (like the Ram and Cardinal Tetras). So do you think I should just add the hard, basic tap water and take my chances? If not, do you have any other suggestions? I don’t have an R/O filter at my house, but I could at least try buying several gallons of filtered water from the grocery store and mixing it, I guess. Is that worth trying?

As before, I really appreciate your time and effort in helping me.

Welcome back! I'm really glad to hear that the Ram made it through due in no small part (I believe) to the care you provided for it prior to your departure. It is a distinct possibility that the dead guppy became chow... so long as you are not experiencing an ammonia spike and you're performing regular water changes, it should not be a huge concern what happened to the carcass. Still, if you have not already, it might be a good time to do a clean out of the mechnical filter in case bits of the carcass were sucked into the filter intake.

Thanks for the clarification re: the tank parameters. It sounds like the pH, GH and KH of the tank water have been stable. I'm assuming you have also been measuring the KH and GH of the tap water and based on those measurements, it is getting more basic and perhaps slightly harder (increasing GH). It might help our understanding if you could post the actual pH, KH and GH of the tapwater for us to compare against the tank's. Remember to let the water from the tap sit out overnight before testing! Otherwise, CO2 concentrations etc. can confound the test results.

At first glance, it seems like you should be OK using the tapwater as-is (and without adding any buffer to the replacement water) assuming its GH is even close to that of the measurement from your tank... but let's see what the measurements are first.

[msquared]

Funny thing about the bloated Guppy is that he kept disappearing (thwarting intense searches on our part) before I left town, but then he'd always show up later the same day acting fairly normal. So I keep expecting him to just show up again, but realistically I guess he won't. I'm very glad about the Ram, too, as I kind of regarded her as my "prize" fish. She's a really nice specimen IMO, and I'd hate to lose her.

Okay, as for the hardness of my tap water, the problem is that I didn't test it all those months back. I only began testing hardness at all starting in May (I think - I don't have my written records in front of me). I'm not sure I've ever tested the hardness of the tap water. I only know that we have a reputation around here for hard tap water. I will get to work testing for that and report back. I will not be able to provide you an accurate pH reading, though, since the high range of the API test is not high enough anymore. I have the old pH test numbers written down at home (I'm still at work) and will include those in the info I post.

[msquared]

Okay, I’m back with interesting test results! First of all, I went back to my records and found that I was wrong: in fact my tap water pH tested off the charts back in February, as well. But – and this turns out to be a big “but” – I had never tested the tap water after letting it sit 24 hours before. Also note that I had never tested the tap water’s hardness before now. So testing this week reveals no apparent changes in the tap water from February at all. The test results are as follows:
Ammonia: 1.0ppm.
Nitrite: 0.
Nitrate: 0.5.
pH: off the chart high right after pouring it, but only 8.2 after 24 hours.
GH: 7* or 125ppm.
KH: 3* or 54ppm.

So DrVader, you were right that certain concentrations in the tap water can confound test results. The tap water is still very basic, but not off the charts. And there is definitely some stuff evaporating out of solution if it sits overnight. So I wonder what these things are and if any of them are harming the fish? It’s kind of a royal pain if I have to let it sit like that before every water change. But if I have to I will. Also, the hardness isn’t high at all. Even the Ram and other soft-water-loving fish should be okay at those parameters.

So I’m left wondering what I should do at this point with water changes? It definitely does not need to be softer. It is pretty basic, and I still have concerns about a 25% water change adding 8.2pH water to a tank of 6.8pH water. That seems that it could still shock the fish. Should I just add that tap water without buffer and let the fish endure the jump in pH? Finally, do I need to let the water to be added stay out overnight before doing the w/c? All help is greatly appreciated, as always.

[msquared]

Well, I went ahead and did a 25% w/c with water I let sit out. However, one thing I hadn't thought about was temperature matching. The water was probably around 74* and the tank temp will be 80* or more. So of course the tank's temp dropped several degrees, which can't be good for the fish. I don't think I'll be able to let the water sit overnight, then. I did not add any buffer this time, so we'll see how my lonely two remaining fish do with this w/c.

[DrNo]

Okay, I’m back with interesting test results! First of all, I went back to my records and found that I was wrong: in fact my tap water pH tested off the charts back in February, as well. But – and this turns out to be a big “but” – I had never tested the tap water after letting it sit 24 hours before. Also note that I had never tested the tap water’s hardness before now. So testing this week reveals no apparent changes in the tap water from February at all. The test results are as follows:
Ammonia: 1.0ppm.
Nitrite: 0.
Nitrate: 0.5.
pH: off the chart high right after pouring it, but only 8.2 after 24 hours.
GH: 7* or 125ppm.
KH: 3* or 54ppm.

So DrVader, you were right that certain concentrations in the tap water can confound test results. The tap water is still very basic, but not off the charts. And there is definitely some stuff evaporating out of solution if it sits overnight. So I wonder what these things are and if any of them are harming the fish? It’s kind of a royal pain if I have to let it sit like that before every water change. But if I have to I will. Also, the hardness isn’t high at all. Even the Ram and other soft-water-loving fish should be okay at those parameters.

So I’m left wondering what I should do at this point with water changes? It definitely does not need to be softer. It is pretty basic, and I still have concerns about a 25% water change adding 8.2pH water to a tank of 6.8pH water. That seems that it could still shock the fish. Should I just add that tap water without buffer and let the fish endure the jump in pH? Finally, do I need to let the water to be added stay out overnight before doing the w/c? All help is greatly appreciated, as always.

Interesting indeed! Good call on having the records to fall back on. Yes, the conc. of dissolved gases can really throw off the results from a pH standpoint. More on this later...

The fact that your tapwater has an ammonia of 1 ppm is really significant... this is very compelling evidence that your water treatment facility uses chloramines. As you know, this stuff is NASTY; make sure you're dosing a quality water conditioner and following the dosing regimen exactly for chloramine neutralization. API makes some great products (e.g. testing kits) but they are not my favorite for water conditioners. Seachem's Prime is great stuff, as is Amquel's NovAqua+ (the product that I use. I have simply found my fish respond better to the latter product). Since your water changes also include an ammonia source, you also need a product that reliably neutralizes toxic ammonia at water change! I would strongly recommend you swap over to Prime as this is a very important stressor of your fish for all water changes.

Regarding the rest of your test numbers, I think you're reading the situation very well; your KH, GH etc. are all looking good and there is very no buffer or other tweaking necessary. Based on your existing stock, I don't see a compelling reason for gross concern re: the pH difference for the water change either; I would not trouble yourself to let the change water out overnight. What I would do is make sure your tank is very well oxygenated (i.e. has an airstone running constantly.... you don't have a planted tank, correct?). The temp. of the water is cetainly different, but IMO you're in the better direction (i.e. lower out of the tap) as your heater can quickly bring the temp of the water up. Make sure you have a very reliable heating unit (I've had great luck with Stealth's). I have the reverse problem (water too hot out of the tap) and it is a constant pain to try to load frozen water bottles into the tank with every water change.

Again, I think you really need to pay more attention to the ammonia and chloramine isssue than the pH at this time as these are known killers of basically every specimen. Let us know how your water change regimen worked this last time! We all have these issues to work through but once you do, you'll find your tank to be far more robust moving forward.

[msquared]

Well 24 hours after the no-buffer w/c, the two fish are doing very well! That's very good news. The pH in the tank remains up somewhat, at 7.0 from 6.6.

Yep, my tap water has always shown that 1ppm ammonia as well, at least after I add the dechlorinator. I called my water company back then and they do use chloramines, and I assume that when I treat with enough dechlorinator it breaks down into byproducts that include the ammonia. My biofiltration has always dealt well with it - I've never been able to measure any ammonia in the tank an hour after a w/c. But I will take your suggestion to use Prime or NavAqua+ if it will detoxify the ammonia - especially now, as with only two fish I'm sure the biofiltration's capacity to deal with ammonia is way lower than it was with 16 fish. Oh yes, and I will add an airstone. My tank is all fake plants except for one patch of java moss that I added sort of on a whim (which is how I think the snails got started in there).

I now suspect that I was using way too much buffer because I was trying to get the pH of the tap water down without letting it sit overnight. So I was probably pouring water into the tank that was actually much softer and more acidic than that in the tank. I might experiment with water that gets left out overnight to see if adding a much smaller amount of buffer could get the pH closer, while still erring on the high side of the pH in the tank, just to minimize the pH swings at w/c. But I'm not sure I'll even try. The main thing is for me to try a few more water changes to make sure I'm not killing any more stock and then start planning a restocking.

Thanks, DrVader, for all your time helping me. If I'm on the right track now, then it was your tip let the tap water sit before measuring it that became the key to my solution. Along the way I learned about KH being a pH stabilizing factor, too.

[DrNo]

Awesome Matt.... can't go wrong with Prime in this configuration. Congrats on figuring what you need to do going forward! PM if you ever need any help or just post up a new thread as there are so many qualified members to assist at the forums. Keep us all updated.

DV

[msquared]

Just a quick update. I got down to only my original blue ram - they apparently aren't as fragile some make them out to be! The last guppy finally got bloated and died after several weeks. But after having figured where I was going wrong with the buffer, I built up confidence to restock the tank. So over the last 1.5 months or so, I've added a second ram (a male this time), six sterbai corys, six marbled hatchetfish, and one clown pleco. Everyone has been doing great. A week ago I swapped all the stock and decor into a new 29g tank that I got from craigslist (killer deal), and they continue to be great. I plan to add one angel and probably call it a complete stocking at that point.

Thanks again for the help!