Discus Questions

[marl_nyc]

Hello! I am planning on purchasing around 5 discus for my 55 gal planted tank soon...as of know I am doing some research and asking for help on this forum on the questions that I have. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Ok so here goes please feel free to correct any mistakes that I make..
What I want to do is to purchase 5 juvenile discus(read and heard a lot of good stuff about kenny's discus ) and grow them out in a 29 gal tank (its not barebottom but has a thin layer of pebbles, sponge filter, hob tetra filter and a heater) Tank has been cycled with media from my planted tank and water as well. I have peat granules in the bio bag in the filter and Indian almond tea leaves 3 pcs inside the tank.
As for the water parameters as of today:
pH:7.2
temp: 84 F
ammonia: 0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate: 5
dKH:2
Now my question is can I grow out 5 discus juvies in this 29 gal tank? If so for how long should they be in there before I can transfer them to my planted tank.
re: i know that i should do at least 40% to 50% wc everyday
and feed them at least 5 times a day to get their optimum growth potential
and my other question is: Will 5 discus grown out be good in a 55 gal planted tank? and how many wc should I do by then? Currently I am doing the EI fertilizing regime and I do 1 50% weekly wc. will this be ok for the discus?
Well this are my main questions for now. I am looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you for looking!
Marl

[reptileguy2727]

I would just start them in the 55. No need to stick them in a smaller unplanted tank (both of those will make water quality harder to maintain). The 55 has a larger volume (anything bad will be more diluted). It has plants (nitrate concentration stays down, less worry about ammonia spikes from overfeeding). With a small cleanup crew like some sterbai cories there will not be any extra food sitting around to rot. In addition, bowl feeding is great and will help you monitor how well you are feeding them as well as whether or not they are all eating. I also highly recommend using sand as a substrate. It is cleaner, better for the plants than gravel is, and great for discus. A well-maintained 55 is great for a small school of discus (6).

[lilim10]

Since the 55 is planted already I presume, so there's no chance of going barebottom with it. Just go ahead and put them in the 55, but watch the nitrates and do large WCs. If you are putting them in the 29, they could probably live in there until they reach 4-5 inches.

One 50% water change a week in the 55 for juvie discus is not enough. It'll work for adults, but not juvies. Five juvie discus grown out in a planted 55 will probably not reach their full potential, but they will still look great (probably only 1/2in or so off max size depending on WCs).

[marl_nyc]

I would just start them in the 55. No need to stick them in a smaller unplanted tank (both of those will make water quality harder to maintain). The 55 has a larger volume (anything bad will be more diluted). It has plants (nitrate concentration stays down, less worry about ammonia spikes from overfeeding). With a small cleanup crew like some sterbai cories there will not be any extra food sitting around to rot. In addition, bowl feeding is great and will help you monitor how well you are feeding them as well as whether or not they are all eating. I also highly recommend using sand as a substrate. It is cleaner, better for the plants than gravel is, and great for discus. A well-maintained 55 is great for a small school of discus (6).

What does this mean? First time I came over this term. The way I understand it you put a small glass bowl in the tank and put their food there? Is this correct? :idea: GENIUS...

My 55 is heavily planted and I use Eco-complete as my substrate. I have 6 panda cories but they will be rehomed because as I understand it they will not thrive inthe higher temps in a discus tank. Wiil get me some sterbai cories instead. Here is a link to my tank details and pics that I poisted several weeks ago:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164187

[marl_nyc]

Since the 55 is planted already I presume, so there's no chance of going barebottom with it. Just go ahead and put them in the 55, but watch the nitrates and do large WCs. If you are putting them in the 29, they could probably live in there until they reach 4-5 inches.

One 50% water change a week in the 55 for juvie discus is not enough. It'll work for adults, but not juvies. Five juvie discus grown out in a planted 55 will probably not reach their full potential, but they will still look great (probably only 1/2in or so off max size depending on WCs).

Thanks for the reply lilim! Just wondering what is their max potential in size and why does it all depend on their water changes?

[reptileguy2727]

Growth is inhibited by a number of things and some are chemicals in the water. Nitrate can slow down growth, so can growth-inhibiting hormones (angels give them off, can't say for sure if discus do but I would assume so). General low water quality will impede growth as well. To counteract all of these you need to do frequent water changes.

Why would they grow out better in a 29 than in a 55? With adequate water changes they should do even better in the 55. And how can you possibly predict it so accurately that they will not fulfill maximum growth by 1/2"?

[Star_Rider]

note, historically young discus are better kept in a bare bottom tank.
the general concensus is they do not reach full 'potential' size unless the tank is kept very clean. which is easier to do in a bare bottom tank with several large water changes during the week. plants are usually kept in pots. discus are fed severa

that said.. they can be kept and raised in a planted tank however keep in mind that it is more difficult to keep 'pristine' conditions in a planted tank which may/may not hinder growth a bit.

[pinkertd]

First, Why are you using peat granules and indian almond leaves???

I don't know what your experience level is in keeping any kind of tropical fish successfully, so I'll start there. All growing baby/juvie fish need frequent feedings and clean water in order to grow and develop properly. Simple concept, but "frequent feedings and clean water" means different things to different levels of fishkeepers. You need to figure out just how much food they are going to consume and determine if you're over or underfeeding them. Young discus are pigs. They should have a nicely bulged tummy after you feed them. I have two young discus in with my adults and they steal the bloodworm clumps right out of the adults mouths. The adults don't get themselves in a feeding frenzy like the younger ones, they take their time, I hand feed them the frozen bloodworms, and they leisurely peck them apart....much to the delight of my faster younger greedy discus. If you feed beefheart, leftover pieces of fat and uneaten beefheart will rot and foul the water very quickly. So you are correct, partial water changes every day will be necessary in the 29G to ensure no decomposing food and to keep nitrate levels to an acceptable limit. Lots of food = lots of fish waste = lots of ammonia = higher nitrate levels. If you had some prior discus experience I would say put them right in the 55G. But these are your first, put them in the 29G for a month or two. Monitor your water parameters, monitor the consumed food/uneaten food, get a feel for what works for your discus, check their growth, then move them over. In the meantime, will you have any other fish in the planted 55G? I would definitely encourage a few bottom feeders to help get food particles out from between the plants. Cories work real well for this. And as star_rider says....they can be raised in a planted tank, it is just more difficult to keep the uneaten food from being trapped in the plants. All my discus was raised in planted tanks and their growth has not suffered, but I've got a few years of discus keeping under my belt.

And I disagree with: "Five juvie discus grown out in a planted 55 will probably not reach their full potential, but they will still look great (probably only 1/2in or so off max size depending on WCs)."
And I agree with: "Growth is inhibited by a number of things"

It's proper tank, proper filtration, proper stable temperature, limited stress, no exposure to internal and external parasites, lots of clean water, clean substrate, proper food, proper quantity of food and proper frequency of feeding, proper nutritious food, genetics......all of this things combined are necessary for reaching full potential. Leave some or any of these type of things out and they probably won't reach full potential. You should generally expect your young discus to grow close to or better than an inch the first 4-6 weeks with proper care. When you move them over to the 55G, you can probably cut back on the frequency of water changes as long as you don't have leftover food decomposing in there. At a minumum at that point I would suggest three water changes weekly of at least 40%. As your feedings go down and they mature, two would then be suggested. And those water change suggestions are based on everything running pretty much near perfect for the discus. The moment anything goes wrong, you may have to adjust your tank housekeeping. One 50% water change a week in a planted tank with mature discus is certainly doable if the nitrates don't get too high and you're not stocked heavily with other tank occupants.

[pinkertd]

Ijust took a look at your planted 55G. I meant to look at it before, but forgot. It's beautiful! Nice job. As far as keeping the discus in there, you have a lot of thick plants, very close together, and short plants close to the substrate. It will be difficult for the discus to forage under the short plants (although they will just about lay down on their side in order to try to get a trapped bloodworm! LOL) as well as in between the plants. There's really no open spot for them to forage, and they are foragers. I would suggest you rearrange a bit to accomodate the discus. Perhaps even remove one of the driftwood pieces and open an area up for them.

[reptileguy2727]

I would use a bowl to keep the food within easy access of the discus and use a small school of sterbai cories ot get whatever makes it out of the bowl and out of reach of the discus.

[marl_nyc]

First, Why are you using peat granules and indian almond leaves???

In the meantime, will you have any other fish in the planted 55G?

And I disagree with: "Five juvie discus grown out in a planted 55 will probably not reach their full potential, but they will still look great (probably only 1/2in or so off max size depending on WCs)."
And I agree with: "Growth is inhibited by a number of things"

It's proper tank, proper filtration, proper stable temperature, limited stress, no exposure to internal and external parasites, lots of clean water, clean substrate, proper food, proper quantity of food and proper frequency of feeding, proper nutritious food, genetics......all of this things combined are necessary for reaching full potential.

Leave some or any of these type of things out and they probably won't reach full potential. You should generally expect your young discus to grow close to or better than an inch the first 4-6 weeks with proper care. When you move them over to the 55G, you can probably cut back on the frequency of water changes as long as you don't have leftover food decomposing in there.

At a minumum at that point I would suggest three water changes weekly of at least 40%. As your feedings go down and they mature, two would then be suggested. And those water change suggestions are based on everything running pretty much near perfect for the discus. The moment anything goes wrong, you may have to adjust your tank housekeeping. One 50% water change a week in a planted tank with mature discus is certainly doable if the nitrates don't get too high and you're not stocked heavily with other tank occupants.


Hi Deb!
Thank you very taking the time out to help me plan for my ongoing project. :)

To answer your questions:
I am using the peat granules and Indian Almond leaves inthe growout to tank to replicate the blackwater found in the discus' natural habitat. Also it may have been me just being OC (obsessive compulsive) in setting up my growout tank in anticipation of keeping the discus as close to thier natural habitat as possible. I have read that it does help in maintaing the pH at a lower level and softens the tank water as well. And I do like the tea colored water and makes the tank more natural.

On my previous thread is my current stock list:
I will be replacing the following..
6 panda cories with 6 sterbai cories
6 neon tetras with 6 rummynose tetras
I will be rehomeing the dwarf rainbows (2)
The harlequin rasboras (12) i can keep with the discus
As for the cleanup crew I have 6 amano shrimp and 4 RCS plus 20 olive nerites and God knows how many hitchiker snails I have that have reproduced over and over again.
I will be adding 1 bolivina ram and 3 oto cats to the tank

I agree with the statement that

"Growth is inhibited by a number of things"

Everything i needed to know in a nutshell... Thanks again DEB! :)

So 2 months for the 5 juvies in the 29g growout tank sound good? Or until they grow more than inch or so?

For the grow out tank: i should go barebottom right? can i leave the indian tea leaves in there or just take em out including the peat nuggets in the filter? how about if I leave floating plants in the grow out tank? Is that ok or not?

Juvies need a temp of 84 to 86 F correct? And not too much current i beleive.

And thanks for the advise on the waterchange schedule in growing out the discus.

Again I thank you for taking the time to answer my flood of questions Deb!

Marl:headbang2:

[marl_nyc]

Ijust took a look at your planted 55G. I meant to look at it before, but forgot. It's beautiful! Nice job. As far as keeping the discus in there, you have a lot of thick plants, very close together, and short plants close to the substrate. It will be difficult for the discus to forage under the short plants (although they will just about lay down on their side in order to try to get a trapped bloodworm! LOL) as well as in between the plants. There's really no open spot for them to forage, and they are foragers. I would suggest you rearrange a bit to accomodate the discus. Perhaps even remove one of the driftwood pieces and open an area up for them.

Thank you for your kind words Debbi! Can you believe it's only been 4 months since I put up that tank. Thanks to this forum and to the people here I was able to pull it off. The information available on this site is mind boggling! You literally learn something new everytime you click on that button..."Today's Post" :)

I will most definitely be doing a rescape on the planted tank to accomodate the discus' foraging habits, before I put them in there of course.

Is the invitation to view your beautiful fish still open Debbi? No buckets I promise!......tupperware ok? :grinyes: LOL


I would use a bowl to keep the food within easy access of the discus and use a small school of sterbai cories ot get whatever makes it out of the bowl and out of reach of the discus.
ahh ok ....now i get it Thanks reptile guy

[pinkertd]

Hi Marl,
Sorry, but I have been busy busy lately and not here much.

It is not necessary to replicate black water unless you are purchasing wild discus. The discus you get will be raised in plain old water where you'll find the ph doesn't differ much from your ph. You can certainly do it, but the fish will not be used to that when they arrive to you. It's some steps you could eliminate. Your driftwood will provide some tannins for you for a while. The one thing that worries me about using peat and the indian almond leaves is that you're reducing the ph from what it is when it comes out of the tap. How are you going to do that many water changes and match the tap to existing tank conditions? Unless you're using several heated water storage barrels to do water changes......But I say keep it as simple as possible. Why add to your work. What's your tap ph? Mine's 7.6 and it is not a problem!

Sterbai cories is good, rummynose tetras is good, cleanup crew is good....however, I do not think the h. rasboras will really like the warm temperatures of a discus tank. And I've read they are active top level fish that may bother larger fish like angels with all their activitiy. I've never kept them. Discus don't like dashing fish like danios. Have you looked at the black neon tetra? Cool tetra that stays a bit smaller than the rummies and the h. rasbora. Mine quite often shoal with the rummies and the black neons are beautiful and hardy too.

I would plan on giving them 2 months in the 29G. They'll grow beautifully for you and you'll get a good handle on how to feed and maintain them properly.

Of course it's easier to siphon off leftover food from a bare-bottom tank. My own personal opinion is that my discus seemed to settle in better with the bottom covered. When I have kept groups of discus in smaller numbers than what the breeders keep them in in a barebottom tank, they seem to be leery of the tank bottom more so than one covered thinly with gravel. So personally, I prefer a thin layer of gravel to cover over the glass. I'd lose the tea leaves and peat nuggets, floating plants are fine. I like to use a potted plant or two. The discus seem to feel more secure with a potted plant in there. You could even put a piece of driftwood in there, it can easily be lifted for siphoning. They will be a little easier spooked when they are in your house. Remember, a lot of these breeders/sellers have dedicated fish rooms that are not part of the main house. People are not always walking thru them. Those same discus when put in a tank in a kitchen or a dining room or a living room will need to adjust to the increased activity outside of their tank. It'll take a little time. I do 86F juvies and adults. I've tried lower and observed them, and feel mine are happiest at 86F.

[pinkertd]

The information available on this site is mind boggling! You literally learn something new everytime you click on that button..."Today's Post" :)

I too learn something every day that I'm on here!

Is the invitation to view your beautiful fish still open Debbi? No buckets I promise!......tupperware ok? :grinyes: LOL

Absolutely! And tupperware is fine as long as it's under 2" x 2" x 2"!


ahh ok ....now i get it Thanks reptile guy

LOL! Took me a while to figure that one out too, at least I think I have it figured out!