Need help with my fishy cycle

[Karlsbad]

Today is day 28 in my 20 high with a 3" Oscar and a 4" catfish.

We had columnaris on about day 7, a local vet told us to use Maracyn which we did but lost the other Oscar which was the only one that showed symptoms, though we completed the treatment of course. At the time the water got slightly cloudy but cleared up pretty much by itself. The Maracyn literature says it doesn't harm biological fliltration. Since then the water got noticably noxious smelling for like a week but that subsided and I assumed we were past the ammonia spike.

During this time I was only doing water changes weekly when I cleaned the gravel I would do approx 25% with Aqua Plus "tap water conditioner with stress reducing herbal extracts" chlorine and chloramine remover added to the new water before I put it in the tank. I also get the new water to the tank temperature (80 F)before putting it in by filling the sink with hot water and placing the bowl full of the new water in the hot water, but it took me a while to think of this, I was originally just letting the tap water run for a minute or so and then letting it sit for maybe 10 minutes before adding it though this seems like a bad plan now..

For about the last week they've been acting pretty happy, then on this last Monday, day 25, I noticed that the Oscar had a new white outline on his dorsal and tail fin and was acting just a little sluggish and not wanting to eat as much. The white outline got bigger the next day. After re reading the Maracyn literature I remembered that it said I could do a second treament to prevent reinfection, combined with my suspicion that this was early fin and tail rot I decided to do that. I gave them their first dose late Wednesday night and Thursday morning the water was really cloudy and the ammonia was like 8ppm. I'm such a dumbass for not testing the water earlier, but this is when I saw that the hardness of the water was the 2nd highest on my test strips (it definitely doesn't taste hard at all). Everything else is low on the scale except PH is high normal.

The catfish always seems unaffected by anything except the removal of his hiding place, which I had to do when we got a hair algae problem for which I scraped the tank and netted out as much as possible(for like an hour and a half) a lot of it got into the gravel so I cleaned the gravel and did 25% changes 3 days apart(it was my original understanding that water changes should be minimized during cycling), but I had to replace the filter the very next day it was clogged with the same pink material that was on the algae scraper when you clumped enough of the hair together.

The Penguin 125(up to 30 gallons) power filter is working fine and not expelling water out the intake like it does when its clogged.

I did another 25% change and gave them their next dose of Maracyn and 2 hours later it was like maybe 7.5 ppm, though they weren't really acting any differently, definitely not gasping for air at the top of the tank. Then I found a website http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/do-and-dont.shtml that says that erythromycin, the active ingredient in Maracyn, is safe on the bio filter only in lower than therapeutic levels for controlling red and hair algae. Of course I suspected the Maracyn all along but didn't want to quit after giving them one dose, and again the literature said it was safe, but I decided to take out the remainder of the second dose(I have the pills that take like 6 hours to disolve). Today I did another 25% change(with distilled water this time) and the ammonia is what looks like 6 ppm it's somewhat less cloudy though definitely still cloudy, the gravel is clean its not debris thats clouding the water.

My questions are: Did I ruin my cycle with the Maracyn? Is Maracyn in the filter and biowheel killing the biological filtration and if so should I change the filter cartridge prematurely and god forbid do something to the bio wheel? its a bad thing to change the filter during the cycle isn't it? If the filter backs up you obviously have to change it, what would that do to the cycle? I have a 20 gallon power filter I'm thinking of adding, should I do that now? What about my tap water hardness? What's the deal with bio spira, is it the only product that should be used? I know its too late and if I can ride it out I will but, you know, is there anything I can or should add? I'm definitely not going to try any chemicals without knowing its the right thing to do. I'm thinking I'll set my 10 gallon up so that in case they start to look bad I can move them there.

Anything else you want to add?

Hope this isn't too many questions or too incoherent to get answers, I really don't want to lose my little guys especially after all they've been through.

20 high
penguin 125 power filter
1 - 3" Oscar
1 - 3" catfish

[Karlsbad]

Should I use ammo lock or Amquel? I've seen recommendations for and against it.

[JSchmidt]

Hmmm... several things going on here... first of all, it seems likely that Maracyn hosed your biofilter. Your priority now should be keeping ammonia under control, preferably via water changes. I'd be doing enough to keep ammonia below 1.5 ppm.

You can use Amquel, but there are a couple of potential problems. First, even if you are able to detox the ammonia, you're still going to have a nitrite spike. You'll have to monitor for that and do sufficient water changes to keep nitrites below 1 ppm. Second, in water with low KH (i.e., poor buffering) using Amquel can precipitate a pH crash. This is particularly likely if you're using enough Amquel to detox 8 ppm ammonia.

I'd discontinue them meds and become fastidious about testing (for ammonia and nitrites) and changing water.

Another concern, although it's admittedly to late to do anything about, is the possibility of gill damage from exposure to ammonia that's already occured. I'd consider the fish weakened, and take cares to make it's environment pristine, especially until the tank is cycled and established.

Good luck,
Jim

[anonapersona]

First, please post the actual test values you get, like 2.0 ppm, or 123 ppm, or 12 degrees general hardness (GH), or even "between 2.5 and 3.5 ppm". I have no idea what "high normal pH" means! I have 8.2 pH and 10 dGH, so that seems normal to me!

It is OK to use tap water for water changes, if you use a bucket, you can draw water from the tap mixing hot and cold to what feels to your hand like the tank temp. Then, if you are not sure, use a thermometer. If you move the tank thermometer to the bucket, if the temp doens't move pretty quick you are close to the same temp, it will be OK; that is, a degree or two off is fine as most water changes of 25 to 50% won't affect the total tank temperature much if the new water is off by a degree or two. You will be able to do this by feel pretty quickly. You can add the Aquasafe while it is in the bucket. If you use a Python to change water, you add the Aquasafe to the tank before or during the refill.

You should not be using distilled water for fish, unless you need to to reduce pH or something, but Oscars and catfish should be grat inhard water, I'd guess (I dont keep Oscars but they are big here in TX, due to the water). The tap water treated for chlorine is probably fine, if you think there is a problem with the tap water, tell us what the values are that have you concerned. Most tap water is fine.

Test every day for ammonia and nitrite, the nitrite spike will be worse than the ammonia spike was, higher and longer. Change water to keep the values low, even if that means more than one water change in a day. Test for pH and KH now (and report that here) and retest every so often to be sure the values are not dropping much. If the KH of the tap is very low, 2 or 3 degrees, you might get unstable pH values.

The Penguin filter has carbon that probably messed up the first treatment, absorbed some of it. I actually have cut open the cartridge to shake out as much of the carbon as possible. You shouldn't have carbon while using medication.

If the treatment destroyed the filter, Biospira might be a good thing to try to get the whole thing established ASAP. If you can find it, go for it.

Later, when this is all better, when changing water, you will swish the old filter in old tank water, that will clean it of a lot of gunk. When it seems to no longer work well, when you start up the filter and a cloud of crud blows into the tank and the tank is never really clear, then you will want a new cartridge (I used mine for months). Cut a big chunk off the old cartridge and put it before the new cartridge, this allows the bacteria to populate the new cartridge. Also, best for the bacteria to not clean intake tubes and switch cartridges on the same week.

The bacteria you need are not in the water, so water changes are fine, but the are in the filter floss, the tubes and the gravel, but so is a lot of nasty junk, so while the cycle is still on, go easy on the feeding; less in, less out. Those are big fish, and the food they eat will pass through and pollute the tank rapidly.

[Karlsbad]

OK I did another 25% change with tap water after the last one and the ammonia is down to 4 ppm and the water looks a LOT clearer and my fishies look happy(phew). I used distilled water because of the 250 ppm result I saw when I first tested, which my color chart described as "very hard".

How do you get an exact test results like 223 , I have these color cards that go in increments, so the best I can do is guestimate a reading between two colors
Here are the rest of my current results:

nitrite and nitrate both 0
Hardness 120 ppm
Alkalinity 180 ppm
ph 7.8

I'll do another 25% in about 8 hours which will be 12 hours after the last one, and I'm hoping the ammonia will be 2 ppm, if that's the case, I'm thinking I'll test it again in 12 hours and if it's hasn't gone down to 1.5 or less then I'll do another change, otherwise I'll wait 12 hours and change it at 24 hours.

I haven't done any ammo lock or amquel, and I'd really prefer not to.

Is it harmful to use distilled or purified water? I thought the very hard water could be pushing up my ph. I just bought another 5 gallons of r/o(not distilled) drinking water for my midnight CST change
:) , are you saying I should drink that?

What about my pH? I think posts I've seen imply that its over rated, should I worry about it?

With a biowheel, isn't most of the bio culture on the wheel?

I've been using the thermometer to get the water to within 1 degree of the tank before I add it always.

Is KH alkalinity?

If you see somebody at petco buying fish and a fishtank, do you talk to them, sneer at the salesperson, or maybe trip them while they're walking with the new fishtank to go pick out their fish?

Thanks a lot you guys. That was some scary stuff there for a while.

[JSchmidt]

Sounds like things are getting better. I'd be less worried about the cloudiness of the water than the toxins... 4 ppm of ammonia is still pretty high. Is there any reason you don't just change enough of the water to get ammonia down to 1.5 or 1 ppm?

No one, outside of a chem lab, can get values more precise than the hobby tests provide. For KH and GH, being within 10 or 20 or 30 ppm is OK. For pH, you probably want to be within .2 or so. For ammonia and nitrite, you should be able to distinguish differences at least to the .5 ppm level. Beyond that is probably unnecessary for most FW fishkeeping purposes.

I didn't see GH, KH and pH for your tap water (you mention 250...is that KH or GH?), but those would be helpful. Usually, you're much better off not trying to mess with pH, because things get much more complicated when you do. (If your water parameters are really extreme, it may limit the fish you can keep, but generaly, stable water parameters are more important than 'perfect' water.)

KH = alkalinity = buffering.

With a biowheel, there is a substantial biocolony on the wheel; there are other sites for bacteria to populate as well, but the wheel is a preferential site.

You're doing the right things... just get that ammonia down. 4 ppm is definitely too high.

Best,
Jim

[MrGoodbytes]

I might have missed this, but what are you planning to do with the oscar once it gets too big?

[Karlsbad]

Right now after my last 25% water change my ammonia is 3 ppm and nothing else has changed except the ph seems like it went to 7.5.

nitrite 0
nitrate 0
Hardness 120 ppm
Alkalinity 180 ppm
ph 7.5

I'm definitely more concerned about the ammonia than the cloudiness, I just was worried I had another problem but hoping that it was the ammonia clouding the water which seems to be the case.

I'm planning another 25% change in 8.5 hours, but you ask why I don't just change enough of the water to get it down to 1.5 or 1, do you mean like do a 50% or more change? I just thought that much more than 25% in one shot was too much and more often that twice a day was too often and I'd end up restarting my cycle(again?) and putting them through this torture or worse again. So lay it out for me, how much can I change how often? What about using RO drinking water, is it bad, is it worthwhile?

I think I need to verify my results and buy another ammonia test kit, the one that I have is a test tube with 2 different bottles of stuff from each of which you put 8 drops in the test tube full of tank water and shake and wait 5 minutes. It's a Dr Wellfish Aquarium Pharmaceuticals(that dr wellfish thing is a little more jovial than I'd like)

You say you don't see KH, GH, or PH for my tap water, you mean do a test of the water straight out of the tap before it hits the tank? My kit has Nitrate, Nitrite, Total Hardness, Total Alkalinity/Buffering(which I know from your post is KH :D ), and PH.


I'm shopping for a 75 right now, and I'm thinking maybe a 100, I want to get him a buddy as soon as things are stable, but I live in a 3rd floor apartment with no elevator:D , I have the landlord's ok for a 75, and pretty much anything else.

Thanks again

[JSchmidt]

Karlsbad, ammonia won't cloud your water... cloudy water is usually either caused by dust from new substrate or by a bloom in the population of one or more of the normal microorganisms that inhabit the tank. Don't worry about the cloudiness... it likely will be gone by the time the other problems are passed.

I think 3 ppm of ammonia is much worse for your fish than about anything else. Changing water won't prolong your cycle; as long as there is food in abundance (i.e., ammonia > 0 ppm) the bacteria that oxidize ammonia/nitrite will increase in number. Lowering the ammonia will only make your fish more comfortable.

I was wondering about your tap water parameters because many folks believe (or are lead to believe by LFS workers) that they must provide water that "perfectly" matches the native waters of our fish species. Additionally, they are often quite willing to sell you stuff that is supposed to help you reach this fictionally perfect state of affairs.

Apart from some very specialized circumstances (e.g., keeping fragile fish, trying to breed certain species), most people's tap water is fine for a majority of hobby fish. That's why I was wondering what your water's parameters are out of the tap.

As I said before, I'd be changing enough water to keep ammonia below 1.5 ppm. Your fish will appreciate it.

Keep up the good work.

Jim

[Cearbhaill]

"Scuse me for butting in here- I may be very off base.

But it seems that I have heard that adding salt to this equation might provide some relief to the gills of the fish involved?

[anonapersona]

Originally posted by Karlsbad
[B]OK I did another 25% change with tap water after the last one and the ammonia is down to 4 ppm and the water looks a LOT clearer and my fishies look happy(phew). I used distilled water because of the 250 ppm result I saw when I first tested, which my color chart described as "very hard".

Down to 4 ppm isn't far enough, it is OK to do 50% or more water changes if the ammonia is above 1ppm. I know someone told you that 25% at a time was a good thing, but the high ammonia overrides that suggestion.


How do you get an exact test results like 223 , I have these color cards that go in increments, so the best I can do is guestimate a reading between two colors
Here are the rest of my current results:

nitrite and nitrate both 0
Hardness 120 ppm
Alkalinity 180 ppm
ph 7.8

I don't, my test kit measures in drops of reagent and yields degrees of hardness. I know some give ppm values, some give ranges, I just made that number up!


I'll do another 25% in about 8 hours which will be 12 hours after the last one, and I'm hoping the ammonia will be 2 ppm, if that's the case, I'm thinking I'll test it again in 12 hours and if it's hasn't gone down to 1.5 or less then I'll do another change, otherwise I'll wait 12 hours and change it at 24 hours.

I haven't done any ammo lock or amquel, and I'd really prefer not to.

Ammonia is a BAD THING. Better to get it down to 1.0 ppm now and quit putzing around. If it is 4.0 now, a 75% water change will get it to 1.0. Then it may go up or it may go down, probably it will go up as you have no nitrites yet, you are probably still on the upside of the curve. Using amquel or similar might keep the fish from having permanent damage from the cycle. I lost a super goldfish to cycling damage a year later, or at least I think that's what was the problem.


Is it harmful to use distilled or purified water? I thought the very hard water could be pushing up my ph. I just bought another 5 gallons of r/o(not distilled) drinking water for my midnight CST change
:) , are you saying I should drink that?

You need to know WHY you are concerned about the hardness. What sort of water does the Oscar need? Do you know? It may be that it needs even harder water than you have. 250/17.9 = 14 degrees GH; harder than my water. I think that people here add carbonate rocks to the tank for Oscars here to increase the hardness. I don't keep Oscars, so I don't know for sure. I have mostly tetras and they prefer softer water, but are fine in this water, though they probably won't have viable eggs should they breed -- most fish are adaptable. If the Oscars need hard water, your water is hard, then distilled or RO water is NOT the thing to add.


What about my pH? I think posts I've seen imply that its over rated, should I worry about it?

Mostly pH is over rated, unless you are breeding. (My recent reading seems to say that hardness and Total Dissolved Solids, which is related to hardness, is more important.) What is important is stability. The best way to get that is to do water changes and keep the tank near to the tap parameters.

Now, what you do want to be aware of is a falling pH. When KH (alkalinity, 180/17.9 = 10 degrees KH) is low, like 2 or 3 degrees, normal biological processes can cause the pH to fall rapidly, and a stable pH is a good thing, rapidly falling pH is bad. You probably won't need to watch this too carefully, as you are well above 2.


With a biowheel, isn't most of the bio culture on the wheel?

Right. So, you can change cartridges as needed, no need to chop up the padding part!


I've been using the thermometer to get the water to within 1 degree of the tank before I add it always.Is KH alkalinity?

Great! Yes.


If you see somebody at petco buying fish and a fishtank, do you talk to them, sneer at the salesperson, or maybe trip them while they're walking with the new fishtank to go pick out their fish?

Umm, I try really hard not to speak until spoken to. People tend to think you are a nut. Salespeople... some are awesome, some are just clerks stuck in a department they know nothing about. There's a lot to learn. I try to help when I can.

[Karlsbad]

HAHA thanks you guys. I did a 50% change 8 hours ago and it got down to 2 ppm and I'm going to do another one in an hour. Fish look happy.

On the clouding thing, its gone away consistently with the ammonia, so am I killing my bacteria? Not that I would let that stop me from getting the ammonia down.

You know I'm a smoker in an apartment, I'm wondering if thats something to worry about, the air quality, which I know isn't great. I'm thinking of getting one of those ionic air purifiers and putting it right next to the tank, the tanks in the big living room/dining room/kitchen area though, but I think if I have it exausting directly at the filter that should put clean air into the tank.

My understanding is that Oscars like hard water.

I think the cubs winning the world series is one of the seven signs of the apocalypse.

[Karlsbad]

OK either I'm a moron or I've been staring at these cards too much, but my ammonia was 2 ppm (I thought) right before a 50% water change and immediately after that test it's 1.5(I'm sure) or somewhere about in the middle of the 1.0 and 2.0 shades of green on this card. So I checked the water straight out of the tap with a dash of AquaPlus (the dechlorinator + stress coating)and its 0. So I left some water out for 45 minutes cause I end up leaving it stand before adding it to adjust the temp, and thats 0. So I rechecked the tank water after an hour and its still 1.5. :confused:

A third possibility is I'm a moron who's been staring at these cards too much. :D Apparently my first reading of 2 ppm was off. I'm definitely going to get another kit tomorrow.

Regarding the air quality, I'm leaving a bowl of tap water out overnight and I'll test that in the morning, if it has ammonia in it I'll do that air purifier right away, though I think I'll do it anyway eventually.

I still have 0 nitrates and nitrites.

[anonapersona]

Before you buy a new tester, try going to the window to read the color in the sunlight. I find that the incandescent bulbs at the bath sink mask the colors a lot.

[Gunnie]

I recently screwed up a 100 gal. tank with 2 oscars, 2 jack dempseys, & 1 large pleco. My whole house smelled like a sewer. I think I also killed my bio bugs, but don't know how. I was in your situation, and was doing water changes about every 12 hours. Anyway, I moved my fish, drained the tank, and refilled it. I added the proper amount of bio spira, and immediately added my fish back into the tank. That was about 4 weeks ago, and my water is crystal clear. I did my first water change last week to give the bacteria some time to dig in. I highly recommend the bio spira for situations such as what you are experiencing. It is an "instant cycle". I never had an ammonia or nitrite spike. My nitrates are currently at 20 ppm. I cannot get it locally, and order from Bernie at www.fishstoretn.com (The Fish Store). His store is located in Tennessee, and I live in Florida. I usually get it in 2 days. Here are some more links for you to check out if you are interested.
Bio Spira Experiment (http://fishgeeks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=7372)
Bio Spira/New Improved Cycle Test Results (http://http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/thread.asp?id=20043)

[Karlsbad]

OK well the ammonia seems stable between .75 and 1 ppm on its so I'm only doing 33% changes every 24 hours now. Still no nitrates or nitrites. I'm trying to determine if ammonia is going down on its own, what if it is and I have no nitrites or nitrates?

The other day I was re reading the power filter manual cause of how loud the splashing is, and I couldn't tell if they meant to say the water level should be 1/2 inch below the lip of the filter, or below the lip of the tank, so I called them and they said it should be touching the filter so it doesn't splash at all.:) Duh. The only thing is now I'm concerned that my fishies aren't getting enough air, though they aren't gasping at the surface or anything, the filter doesn't disturb the water very much at all. Should I get an airpump or a powerhead or something? I don't really have a good place for an airpump, so a powerhead would be better if one or the other is necessary. I think for now I'm going to lower the water level 1/4 inch just to be safe until I get an answer.


When I got up this morning my filter was humming but not pumping :eek: Petsmart took it back with no box or receipt or bio wheel or cartridge(which I put in the replacement). It was down for less than 10 hours, fished seemed ok when I noticed and when I put the new one in, but now maybe a bit sluggish. So I know I want redundant filtration now and also in the 75 I'll be getting real soon, I think a fluval 404 and an emperor 400. I think I'm going to get the emperor 400 now and put it in this tank. That's for an up to 80 gallon tank, is there anything wrong with that much filtration for a 20 gallon tank? What about my cycle, would adding a new bio wheel part way into it have any impact?

Should I be worried about them having gone with no filter for that long? Just what they need, more drama.

We were calling the catfish felix, but since we found out its a striped Raphael(is that stupid or what, didn't know what kind of catfish it was) we're thinking about renaming him Raphael.


20 gallon high
penguin 125
1 - 3" Tiger Oscar
1 - 3" Striped Raphael