Lighting a 600G HELP

[Sicklid111]

Ok I have this posted on Monster Fish Keepers but no response. So I'll try here.

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Ok I have an Idea on how to set up the lighting on my 600 for a planted 600! Just thought I'd get some opinions here. Tank Dimensions are 96Lx48Wx30H I only plan on a few types of low maintenance US native plants like Vallisneria gigantea. Since I have such a large tank I know the WPG is out the window, But I was told once that using screw in compact fluorescent bulbs with a bell shaped reflector will work to "spotlight" the areas that you want the plant growth in. I was thinking 5 of these Bulbs (http://www.1000bulbs.com/105-Watt-Compact-Fluorescent/31681/) staggered over the tank like this:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j70/CHBGator/lightlayout.jpg
And then setting up 3 timers as follows:
Bulb 3 on timer 1
Bulbs 1 and 5 on timer 2
bulbs 2 and 4 on timer 3

Then starting at about 7am bulb 3 comes on, followed at 9am or so bulbs 1 and 5 turn on and finally 1pm bulbs 2 and 4 come on. Then as the day goes on reversing the order begining at around 5-6 pm with the lights going off in reverse order trying to simulate the natural sunrise and sunset. This way I hope to get good plant growth and try to limit algae growth.
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The main reason I was looking into those was an article I found here (http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.html) and also a sticky of this post Here (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95287) that was from this site. Now on another site I posted the same thing but was hearing a lot about restrike of the watts due to the shape of the bulb. But If what I'm after is Lumens and PAR and uhhh... :wall:

Like I have in my original post I have 600 gallons and no way am I going to try and put 1200 watts over my tank just to grow Vals. And please don't say Plastic plants or I'll blow chunks all over my keyboard and monitor. Has anyone put the SHO screw in CFL to actual test yet or any other Screw in CFL or any other bulb for that matter to test out different theories on what gets plants to grow? I was also going to replace the bell shaped reflector with nice polished ones from AH Supply. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

[Bk828]

I know screw in cfl are the cheap way out but the bell shape reflectors are really horrible and as you said earlier restrike will decrease the light. You are better off placing the bulbs horizontally. As far as bulbs you can go to homedepot and they sell those huge 12-20" bulbs for somewhat cheaper than online. Tough part is finding one with the right K rating.
Another option is metal halide fixtures. A bit more pricey than the screw in cfl but will give you more efficient light for the plants.

[Bk828]

another suggestion is shop lights!

[Sicklid111]

Isn't the only thing the restrike decrease is the wattage? I was under the assumption that it would not effect the Lumens. Those bulbs have 6500K and 6700 Lumens giving them about 64 lumens per watt. Which is much higher than what the normal household screw in CFL bulbs are not to mention the K temp is about 1/4 to a 1/3 on most and only a few reaching half of what they need to be for a planted tank. The whole purpose is to save not only Money on the initial cost but also on the electric bill every month. MH are way out of budget.

[Bk828]

Isn't the only thing the restrike decrease is the wattage? I was under the assumption that it would not effect the Lumens. Those bulbs have 6500K and 6700 Lumens giving them about 64 lumens per watt. Which is much higher than what the normal household screw in CFL bulbs are not to mention the K temp is about 1/4 to a 1/3 on most and only a few reaching half of what they need to be for a planted tank. The whole purpose is to save not only Money on the initial cost but also on the electric bill every month. MH are way out of budget.

normal house hold screw in cfl bulbs are 5500K and everything 27w and above comes in 6500K. So basically the different isnt that great. Plants care about the watts that goes to them, lumens as well since thats the whole spectrum of the bulb.
Normally with fluorescent bulbs one would calculate the watt per gallon by doing total watts divided by # of gallons. Well with the screw in cfl bulbs you lose a small % of that wattage due to its shape, and if you use a bad reflector you further decease the % of light that goes to the tank.

Plenty of people use screw in cfl bulbs for growing plants, it works great for them and has for me. Here check my thread on my canopy which had 5 screw in cfl bulbs for growing plants : LINK (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138612)
(can find more threads on this site with others who done the same method)

Will mention Shop lights again! Cheap and effective.

You can start calculating right now how much your bill will spike with the addition of so and so lights..

Running 500w over a tank for 10hrs a day is 5Killowatt hours x 30day billing cycle will give you 150kwh used. Check the cost of a kwh on your electricity bill (should be around 10-30cents) and times that by the 150kwh.

[NewbieFish]

Thats gonna be a killer planted tank lol.

Agree with the shop lights. You will be able to run 48" T8s front to back...Just concentrate the tubes where you will plant. Considering you have a deep tank it might be difficult to light with CFLs.

[J double R]

if you want to talk to someone about lighting a huge planted tank.. find Tom Barr on here and send him a pm.. he's an expert with planted tanks, and especially monster ones.

[rustygmc]

I would personally go with t-5's with individual reflectors or metal halides because of the depth of your tank. Since those are out of the budget I would go with Over driven T8 shoplights instead of the cfl's. This can probably be done cheaper than the cfl's and your tank will be better lit. Its really up to you and your budget though.

James

[The Zigman]

30" deep is a long way for that light to travel..
I'd probably go with some metal halide pendants or maybe Fluorescent flood lights..

thinking about adding 2 of these to my 125..
http://www.yinyanghome.com/sitebuilder/images/FloodLightLoa_bitmap_of_weblayout1-475x257.jpg

[jmhart]

Yeah, CFL's aren't going to be effective lighting on a tank that deep. To have anywhere near a decent planted tank, you'll have to do Power Compacts or Metal Halides.

Yes, the wpg rule doesn't apply, but putting 100 watts over a 600g tank tank that's 30" deep isn't going to grow plants. For a high tech 600g tank, you should shoot for about 430 watts. Low tech, *maybe* half that.

But, you might could use a couple of these babies:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/105-Watt-Compact-Fluorescent/31681/

[Bk828]

lol jeff he actually linked those same bulbs

[cap1384]

Yeah, CFL's aren't going to be effective lighting on a tank that deep. To have anywhere near a decent planted tank, you'll have to do Power Compacts or Metal Halides.

Yes, the wpg rule doesn't apply, but putting 100 watts over a 600g tank tank that's 30" deep isn't going to grow plants. For a high tech 600g tank, you should shoot for about 430 watts. Low tech, *maybe* half that.

But, you might could use a couple of these babies:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/105-Watt-Compact-Fluorescent/31681/

430 watts isn't even 1 wpg how's that high tech?

[jmhart]

Oh....I didn't see it on my first run though, all the font blurred together.


Those CFL's will grow plants, actually, they'll grow almost all plants, but maybe not to their greatest potential. The restrike causes two issues: 1. You have to go way overkill on the wattage just to grow decent plants 2. when a tank that big/that much wattage, the overkill will really effect your power consumption.

I did CFL in the beginning, but ultimately I replaced them with power compacts due to the reasons above.

[jmhart]

430 watts isn't even 1 wpg how's that high tech?



Because with big tanks like that the watts per gallon "rule" doesn't even apply. It's not even something you can work with. For a 600g tank, throw the wpg rule out the window.

Supporting information:

http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2006/11/amanos-ideal-light-levels-revealed.html


and

http://www.fitchfamily.com/lighting.html

[roadrunnermalwi]

try this site it might help www.energystar.gov (http://www.energystar.gov) gives list of cfls with watts and the ks

[Sicklid111]

430 watts isn't even 1 wpg how's that high tech?

hehe I was going to go with 5 actually but still short of 1 wpg. After all the really great info I'm looking into the overdriven T8 as a promising option after a quick google search. I'm also reading every article linked here. I'm hoping this thread gets somewhere and has an end to it. I've seen way to many threads where the OP just stops posting one day and leaves us all in the dark (yes a pun) on what worked and what didn't. Right now I guess I'll do everyone a favor and and post a quick vid of the tank and imagine what it will look like full of Jungle Vals and other nice green plants!. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uHyXnVBUqCw&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uHyXnVBUqCw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Its an older vid updated stock is 2 spotted/florida gar, longnose gar, Yellow Perch (2 more on the way) , Pumpkinseed Sunfish, 2 Green Sunfish and a Bluegill. Thats going to be the end of the Stocking to.

[cap1384]

Because with big tanks like that the watts per gallon "rule" doesn't even apply. It's not even something you can work with. For a 600g tank, throw the wpg rule out the window.

Supporting information:

http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2006/11/amanos-ideal-light-levels-revealed.html


and

http://www.fitchfamily.com/lighting.html


Its not really supporting information. for it to be supportive wouldn't it have to be in a controled enviroment and multiple test run using the same exact parameters..... Just my opinion

[Sicklid111]

Its not really supporting information. for it to be supportive wouldn't it have to be in a controled enviroment and multiple test run using the same exact parameters..... Just my opinion

Well... From looking at Amano's tanks and if the data they gathered is from his tanks and accurate as they claim about what wattage he uses on all his tanks of different sizes It might be good support. Its hard to argue anything against an Amano planted tank. according to the calculator I'd need 430 W

[DrNo]

Any way you slice the lghting issue, I am fascinated to see where a 600 gallon planted tank leads! Please upload a photo thread.... we want to see the beast LOL Sorry for hijacking the thread, but what kind of stock were you considering? I (and we) envy your flexibility :D

[cap1384]

Well... From looking at Amano's tanks and if the data they gathered is from his tanks and accurate as they claim about what wattage he uses on all his tanks of different sizes It might be good support. Its hard to argue anything against an Amano planted tank. according to the calculator I'd need 430 W


The type of lighting that you use will make a difference too a MH will put of more light that a CFL and so forth besidese the data has gallons & watts it does not tell us what type of lighting he was using much less k rating ....



Any how please keep us updated on your tank I am very interested PICS?

[jmhart]

The type of lighting that you use will make a difference too a MH will put of more light that a CFL and so forth besidese the data has gallons & watts it does not tell us what type of lighting he was using much less k rating ...


K rating has very little due to with how much light you need over the tank. We all know it needs to be "Daylight", so anywhere above 6500k will. Messing with color temp will alter the color of the plants.


Also, it's safe to say Amano doesn't use CFL's. Most Amano tanks I've seen use MH, but I think I've also seen T-5.

[Sicklid111]

Any way you slice the lghting issue, I am fascinated to see where a 600 gallon planted tank leads! Please upload a photo thread.... we want to see the beast LOL Sorry for hijacking the thread, but what kind of stock were you considering? I (and we) envy your flexibility :D

Its a Native tank. Scroll up for the stock list.

Here is the LINK (http://sites.google.com/site/gatorsnativetank/) to the site I put up on the build.

How many people have actually used Overdriven T8's? and by shortened life of the bulbs how much shorter are we talking?

[cap1384]

K rating has very little due to with how much light you need over the tank. We all know it needs to be "Daylight", so anywhere above 6500k will. Messing with color temp will alter the color of the plants.


Also, it's safe to say Amano doesn't use CFL's. Most Amano tanks I've seen use MH, but I think I've also seen T-5.


Your right JM I phrased that all wrong I meand lumens and lux. the type of light will depend on how much actually penetrates that deep into the water, and with out a lux meter you will never know how much light is actually there. If you look at the chart it doesn't tell you if its a T8, T5, MH.. it doesn't tell you much just the wattage and the gallons... I'm going to drop this tho this isn't the thread for this dicussion......... isn't there a way of using the lumens to determine how much light you will need. could this possibly be a better way? i'll try to find that link

[Sicklid111]

Pricing the T8 ODNO thing now, ballasts, bulbs, sockets etc.

Light Bulbs Etc (http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT)
B432I120RH-A B432I120RH-A Ballast 6 x $19.56 $117.36
F30T8-D T-8 Lamp Medium Bi-Pin Base 36" Daylight 12 x $7.16 $85.92
L23651 Slide-On Low Profile Lamp Holder / Rated 660W-600V 24 x $0.91 $21.84
Total: $225.12

[Sicklid111]

OK I cant edit the last post anymore but after more research I went to 1000bulbs.com and found the following:
>Item: BF-WH5120LC
Name: Fulham Workhorse 5 - Fluorescent Ballast - 120 Volt - Long Case - Fulham #WH5-120-L 6 @ 24.13ea = $144.78
>Item: F-32T8GSP6530GE
Name: F32T8/SP65/ECO - 4 ft. - 32 Watt - T8 Linear Fluorescent Tube - 6500K - GE # 16091 1 Case (36 bulbs) @ $104.01
>Item: T8/T12 Socket SOCK-526RW
Name: T8/T12 Medium Bi-Pin Lamp Holder 24x .40ea = $9.60
Total = $258.39 + 24.41 Shipping = $282.80

Its actually cheaper in the long run than the other place since I'm getting the bulbs in a case (36) so each bulb ends up being $2.89!
36 Bulbs and only using 12 at a time theoreticly I have 3 years worth of bulbs if I change out every 12 months or 18 months if I switch out every 6 months either way its a heck of a deal. Now the cost will go up since I need reflectors but I thought maybe get a sheet of Mylar. It has 98% reflectivity Aquatic Eco sells it for $19.27 for a 4'x25' roll.

Now according to a post I read overdriving a 4 bulb ballast into 2 bulbs wil have a 50% increase in light output giving me 576W using only 384W assuming that it is actually a 50% increase. The other thing I like is the GE bulbs give off a nice 84 Lumens per watt.

Another option would be just to get retro kits from AH supply a 6x 96W bright kit is $299.99 + 6 x 96W bulbs = $173.94 + $31.95 shipping = 505.88. A bit to much for my wallet.

MH are out, way to much in inital cost and bulb replacement.

More to come later.

[Sicklid111]

Your right JM I phrased that all wrong I meand lumens and lux. the type of light will depend on how much actually penetrates that deep into the water, and with out a lux meter you will never know how much light is actually there. If you look at the chart it doesn't tell you if its a T8, T5, MH.. it doesn't tell you much just the wattage and the gallons... I'm going to drop this tho this isn't the thread for this dicussion......... isn't there a way of using the lumens to determine how much light you will need. could this possibly be a better way? i'll try to find that link

LOL I got waaay off track with my original train of thought in regards to using those bulbs. So thanks cap1384 for getting me back on track. It was suppose to be more towards the lumen out put of the bulbs. I also posted the question to Tom Barr on his forum and he suggested using 2 banks of 8 4' T8 32W bulbs over the tank (16 total) spaced out from front to back. Interestingly enough with a calculator I found on here that takes into consideration lumens per gallon. The amount of light those put out will give me moderate to high lighting according to This (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95287) thread. And also VERY close to another calculator (http://woo.gotdns.com/Aquarium/Lighting.htm) thats trying to debunk the old T12 based WPG rule as well.

[duke33]

I put a $45 (lowes) cf streetlight over a 300g 30" tall. It's rated at 500w and does a good job lighting. With the stock I cannot plant though. Hope this helps.

[Sicklid111]

Was it the whole fixture or just the bulb?

[Riiz]

LOL I got waaay off track with my original train of thought in regards to using those bulbs. So thanks cap1384 for getting me back on track. It was suppose to be more towards the lumen out put of the bulbs. I also posted the question to Tom Barr on his forum and he suggested using 2 banks of 8 4' T8 32W bulbs over the tank (16 total) spaced out from front to back. Interestingly enough with a calculator I found on here that takes into consideration lumens per gallon. The amount of light those put out will give me moderate to high lighting according to This (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95287) thread. And also VERY close to another calculator (http://woo.gotdns.com/Aquarium/Lighting.htm) thats trying to debunk the old T12 based WPG rule as well.

Tom Barr is wise in selecting T8, even though they need to be replaced every 6-9 months, 16 bulbs cant be more than $50 if they are bought in bulk.

And 6x96watt CF bulbs costs are about $200 including shipper per year.

[Sicklid111]

Scroll up. @ 1000bulbs.com a case of 36 bulbs is $104.01 which is $2.89 a bulb. they also have ballasts with a 5 year warranty for $15.66 that runs 4x T8 32W bulbs, then the sockets are .40 cents a piece. I was originally looking at the Fulham ballasts but that was because I was going to OD them but looks like I don't need to. so the total with shipping went from $282.80 to 202.34 shipped. Hell of a deal if you ask me. :headbang2:

[duke33]

Was it the whole fixture or just the bulb?The whole fixture. As you can see the light on the left is the streetlight. I wrapped the outer shell with tinfoil. It sits on 2 3/4" wood blocks on the glass for ventlation. Kind of hillbilly but it works for me.:) The other is a 4x4 shop/office light with walmart grow bulbs.

[Plantedrandall]

what about adding a skylight to the house, lol