Easy and complete CO2 system?

[Cearbhaill]

I apologize in advance as I know I asked about this before. I've searched my files, Googled, and visited every forum I've ever posted on and can't find it.

I want an easy to install CO2 system for a 90 gallon tank. I want every piece I will need to come in the one order- I do *not* want to be chasing all over town for a valve or a fitting (aside from the tank itself). I want every check valve, needle valve, and piece of tubing I could conceivably need to be included. Any pre-assembly of confusing parts would be appreciated. I want good quality components that will last, and I want to buy it from a vendor I can get in touch with in case I screw even this up.
I am looking for as close to a "plug and play" system as exists.

Any suggestions regarding systems and/or vendors?

[750t]

Im not sure about big als but www.petsolutions.com sells a complete pressurized system. I the the aquatic store does also. All you have to do is get the tank filled. Tim

[TwoTankAmin]

There is no one single way to do pressurized co2. Aside from the bottle and regulator which are a must, all the pieces after that depend on the user. What I do know is when you buy the entire system from a single supplier, you will normally pay more, perhaps a lot more.

That said you can look for complete systems on AquaBid or from AquaBotanic http://www.aquabotanic.com/4sale.htm

For a list of more places you can look into go here http://www.brainyday.com/jared/aquarium/info.htm

[superjohnny]

Mine is an all-in-one system and came completely assembled. I ordered the Milwukee from aquatic-store.com for $82 shipped. It took a couple of weeks to arrive though. I think i'd have ordered it from aquabotanic.com if given another chance. Anyway, it has a regulator, needle valve, solenoid & bubble counter all-in-one. I then bought a 5# aluminum tank new from a wine/beer specialty store for $85 hydrotested & full.

[Cearbhaill]

On any of the vendors- how was the customer service of the company?
I don't mind paying for services. My time is worth money too.
But I don't care to work with vendors who make customers feel like a pain in the keister if something goes wrong. I expect it to cost a decent amount, but I also expect everything to work or be happily replaced. If I need talked through something I don't want to be made to feel like an idiot.

Can you tell I am paranoid about rigging this baby??
:( :( :(

[superjohnny]

I was to! I don't like fooling with chemicals and pressurized stuff when I don't fully understand what I'm doing. I'm not sure why it took so long for me to get it. It very well may have been UPS. The regulator was in a plastic bag with a small piece of bubble wrap around it in a small box. I don't really know how robust regulators are, but I think if there was any trauma to the box it may have damaged it.

Aquatic-store was ok. He answered most of my emails, but after a week when I hadn't seen the UPS man he didn't respond to one or two. Ordering was a bit of a pain as they take credit cards only through PayPal. I can fully understand why he does this though, taking credit cards is expensive and a PITA for a small business. I give aquatic-store an overall grade of B+. I would order again from them in the future on items that are discounted.

As for the quality of the regulator, solenoid, needle valve and bubble counter I am quite pleased. Instructions were complete and clear. Setup was straight-forward and fairly easy.

[125gJoe]

You can also look into : http://www.floridadriftwood.com/store.asp

I had great customer service with them and the orders arrived fast...

[superjohnny]

The same Mulwukee regulator, solenoid, needle-valve & bubble counter combo is $73.99 at aquatic-store, $139 at floridadriftwood or $99 at aquabotanic.

[125gJoe]

There's that 'brass check valve'.... :D

[superjohnny]

How does the check valve work? Where does it go? I'm not using one, is that bad?

Thanks Joe :)

[125gJoe]

http://www.floridadriftwood.com/images/products/reg_ml.jpg
It's right 'before' the bubble counter... You probably don't need it..

[Cearbhaill]

That's what I'm afraid of- you say he "probably" won't need one.
I want to know beforehand what I need and be positive it will all be there when I start assembling. I'd rather buy too much and have everything right there than to need a check valve and have to hit the yellow pages, hit the traffic and get home with the wrong thing.

Joe- wasn't there some sort of issue with a plastic regulator when it should have been metal?
Maybe I'm confused...

[superjohnny]

Thanks for the clarification Joe. That's the same Milwukee regulator I have. So the check valve is built in... got it.

Cearbhaill,
You need a regulator like the one Joe posted, CO2 tubing, a diffuser or some way to diffuse the CO2 and a CO2 tank. JBJ makes a nice regulator combo... a few companies do. I don't think it makes much difference because they're all pretty good.

For a diffuser I'm using my canister filter and feeding the CO2 into it. Works great for a day and a half now. I've heard this can cause some canisters to "air lock" but I haven't had that issue so far.

[carlab]

Superjohnny, feel very fortunate you only had to wait 2 wks for your CO2 setup from Aquatic-store. I ordered mine from them on 9/1/03 and have been told it may ship later this week. Was told 2 weeks ago that it was shipping that week and then was told a train wreck delayed delivery to them. Be very careful who you order from!:mad:

[bobalston]

Even though you want an all-in-one, you might find some of the articles I have assembled at my web site on CO2 useful education.

http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2

Bob

[125gJoe]

Just some advice when you do get a system set up.

Be patient with the CO2 bubble flow/count... Mine took almost a week to stabilize, and I almost replaced my regulator.

By "stabilizing", I mean the bubble count kept drifting higher and lower. I don't know what caused this, and there was no detectable leak..

I can now adjust it (needle valve) without any 'drift'..

[Robert H]

THe milwaukee regulator includes everything except tubing, a C02 tank, and a REACTOR. A reactor is a device that mixes the gas with water inside your aquarium.

I am happy to help and answer questions to the best of my ability, but there really isn't much to it as far as hooking it up. You screw on the regulator, attach the tubing, fill the bubble counter with water, put the reactor inside your aquarium and connect the tubing to it, and then turn the gas on. Oh, and plug in the solenoid to a timer.

The tricky part is understanding how C02 works, how much you should be adding to your water, understanding the relationship between pH and KH. That requires some reading and education.
You can also call Milwaukee directly if you get stuck and are not satisfied with the answers you get from the vendor. They are extremely helpfull, and knowledgable. There phone number is listed on my hardware forum. The directions that come with the regulator are pretty self explanatory as well.

[djlen]

The reason for using a brass check valve is that the plastic reacts poorly with the CO2 and needs to be replaced regularly. If you get one, get brass.

All you need is a decent regulator and needle valve, 5 - 20lb. tank and reactor. The solenoid is only needed if you intend to shut down the flow of gas overnight(unnecessary IMO). The drop in pH is so minute over night that I don't see the need for turning it off.

To me the bubble counter is unnecessary as well depending on the type of reactor you use. I use reactor consisting of a power head which I feed the gas into from the bottom. I can see the bubbles before they go up into the power head, making a bubble counter unnecessary.
In one of my tanks, I use a Fluval, in-tank cannister filter as a reactor. I cannot see the bubbles going into that so when I set it up I just put the tubing into the water and count the bps. and when I have the desired bubble rate I stick the tube into the bottom of the filter and let it rip.
I test pH practically every day and, if needed, adjust my bubble rate base on that. If you have a decent needle valve, once you get the rate you want, you don't need to adjust it after that. I've had periods when I didn't touch my needle valve for months, once it was set.

Len

[125gJoe]

Cearbhaill,
The plastic issue was the gauge(s) not the regulator....
The regulator is doing it's job, but at first it didn't seem to want to 'regulate' the CO2 flow.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by djlen
.... .....To me the bubble counter is unnecessary ... ...Len
I have to use a Bubble Counter since my reactor is hidden, and the reactor uses a small Rio powerhead to mix the CO2 bubbles with the water in the tube. If I power down the reactor, and it was visable, I could do without the Bubble Counter.
Then again, I like the Bubble Counter on the outside of the tank since it's so easy to glance at daily to make sure the bubble rate is good...

[Cearbhaill]

Just stopping by to tell you all that I am following the conversation with interest- keep it up!

[125gJoe]

Cearbhaill,
Have you come to any conclusions?

[Cearbhaill]

I've concluded that even you guys can't agree on what is necessary and that no system comes complete with everything I need.
:D :D :D

[superjohnny]

Then I guess I don't understand what you are asking. I think we all agree that the parts necessary are: a CO2 tank, regulator, needle valve, and diffuser. A bubble-counter & solenoid are optional. Most of the all-in-one setups include these.

It's really up to you to figure out how you're going to implement it into your current system. Some people use a diffuser, some use their canister. Some use a solenoid to shut it down at night, some don't. Some use a bubble-counter, some don't.

There is no right or best way, there are just different ways.

[Cearbhaill]

It's really up to you to figure out how you're going to implement it into your current system.
I guess I'm just afraid of sitting here with all my parts and having no idea what to do with them, dicking with it all day, and ending up frustrated and confused.

Let's try this.
90 gallon tank, plants, discus, Eheim 2028 with prefilter and spraybar (doesn't break surface).

IF I order the AquaBotanic complete system for large aquariums "Includes a regulator with two gauges, needle valve, check valve, bubble counter, solenoid, pH controller, and external reactor that connects to a cannister filter or sump. 10 feet of tubing included at no charge." can I be sure that it will include everything I need except the co2 tank??

Same question re Florida Driftwood Ultimate co2 system?
"(B) Co2 Regulator
(C) Solenoid Valve
(D) Needle Valve
(E) Bubble Counter & Brass Check Valve
(F) Co2 Reactor 200 (up to 200+ gallon capacity)
(F') Rio50 pump
(G) Co2/pH Controller & Probe
(H) Co2 Tubing (7')"

Yes to both, right?

So why does one supply a pump and the other not?
Because it depends in your filter integration method (or lack of)?

Do I want it integrated?
Would that complicate my filter maintenance?

[djlen]

The pump is for an internal reactor which is not necessary if you have a cannister filter and want to run the CO2 into it for distribution into the water column. I have heard that some people have had problems with the CO2 injecting through a cannister because it causes some type of air lock within the cannister.
I have a cannister, but use the internal method, basically because it's what I had before buying the cannister. Although based on the above reports, I don't know whether I'd go with the injection through the cannister or not, given that option.
I don't think it would cause any additional maintenance as to extra cleaning of the cannister, but I could be incorrect in that area.
Both of the sources you mention, IMO, offer complete systems from my point of view so it's your choice as to injection that will make the difference.
I think the differing opinions you're getting reflect the different ideas people have of what is "necessary" and what is not.
I personally don't think a bubble counter or solenoid are "necessary". Some do. It's like getting a new car with/without cruise control.........your choice.......your pocketbook.
A CO2 system is not that difficult to set up and any or all of us can guide you through it.

Len

[superjohnny]

The instructions that come with the regulator are very good. It walked me through the setup and I knew literally nothing about how the stuff fit together before I did it.

I was thinking of getting an inline diffuser, but decided I'd try to run the CO2 through my canister first to see if it caused an air-lock. Much to my delight it does not air-lock. My understanding is that air-locking is when you break the siphon. This hasn't happened to me so far. It's kinda hokey looking, I'll post a pic when i get home, but it works perfectly.

[125gJoe]

The pH Controller is expensive, but not necessary... a timer for the solenoid shut-off at night is good to have. A simple timer will do..

You've probably seen pics of 'complete set-ups', but here's a pic anyway...


http://www.brainyday.com/jared/aquarium/co2.jpg

Here's the link: CO2 Set-up (http://www.brainyday.com/jared/aquarium/discus/co2.htm)

Hope this was somewhat useful as it was before I got mine set up... CO2 seemed like some kind of mystery, but once you get it going it is a simple system.

You and your plants will love it.

Oh yeah, get extra extension cords, couldn't hurt to have one when needed. My CO2 set-up didn't come with the tank, so I got one locally at a 'carbonics' business...

[Cearbhaill]

OK OK OK!
I will order a complete system the end of this month.
But when I show up here all confused and cryin' y'all better show up to help a gal figger it out.

I'd assume that I need to measure the height of my underneath zone before I get a tank- I'm tempted to buy a nice new shiny one, but will have to see what is available locally and nearby.
I don't mind more frequent refills (or even keeping a spare) but this is in my living room and must look nice.

"End of tank dump" is a little frightening- you could go ahead and assure me that this is easy to figure out as well...

I currently run 110w of compact fluoro on a 90 gallon, but it is a 220w unit (I keep the back set turned off).
How will 220 watts work out with CO2- in terms of what additional plants I will be able to sustain?
Will it increase my variety possibilities substantially or just promote more vigorous growth of what I am already keeping?
I'd like to be able to grow more variety.

[famman]

Don't bother to buy a nice shiny one, you'll just trade it in on the refill. Go to your local beer brewers supply store and get a 6lb tank used, $60 filled, $10 refill.
good luck
:)

[superjohnny]

A needle-valve regulates the amount of CO2 that enters the tank so you shouldn't have to worry about the end of the tank dump issue. At least that's what I've heard...

My setup cost a grand total of $168 including the regulator, solenoid, needle valve, bubble counter & new filled 5# aluminum tank. The aluminum tanks are quite a bit lighter than the steel ones.

[125gJoe]

220watts of light and a 90 gallon is great!
You will have more plants to select from for sure!

Let us know more, and when you get it...

[superjohnny]

Here's mine...
http://www.johnnyanddana.com/images/Tank/CO2_setup.jpg

[Cearbhaill]

Couple of follow up questions-

1) When deciding where to place the reactor- does it matter how near/far it is with respect to the filter intake/output?
I know about not wanting surface agitation. But my tank has a quite distinct water circulation pattern and I wonder if there are recommendations as to actual reactor placement.

2) If I use a pH controller will that effect my water changing?
Say my water is pH 7.4 and the controller is set at 6.5.
What happens after a 25% water change?
Am I going to have to use pH adjusted RO water oh PLEASE not another device!! or does something else happen?

3) I have gotten my KH up to 4 in this tank.
Is that high enough?
There's a decent fish load in there, and my power does go out from time to time. I'm not entirely sure all the points in this question are related, but I think they might be. The phrase "pH crash" keeps dancing in my head.

Sorry if I'm being dense- I searched for a bit but got nowhere.
Why in blazes will the search mode not accept "pH"????

[125gJoe]

1) Not really, just don't put it next to the intake. You want the CO2 dispersed throughout the tank.

2) The pH Controller is a very fancy and $$ way to put more, and less CO2 in the tank. The more CO2 the lower the pH. I don't use one due to the cost and testing for CO2 levels not that time consuming, it's easy...

3) Link: pH - KH - CO2 (http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm)

On your seach for "pH" you might try "PH" instead...

[Cearbhaill]

I just came from that last link- I couldn't understand it.

That last paragraph before the table reads:
"There is on case I've seen where the addition of CO2 resulted in an increase in KH. This can happen when you have something in the tank that dissolves carbonate into the water. Seashells, crushed coral, and many gravels and rocks will do this. With the addition of CO2, the water turns more acidic, which will increase the dissolving of the minerals. It appears that increasing CO2 raises the KH, which isn't really the case. The dissolving minerals raise the KH, and the increase in KH results in an increase in pH. In a system using a pH probe and controller to regulate CO2 levels, this can have fatal consequences, since the pH controller will keep trying to lower the pH, but as more CO2 is dissolved, it lowers the pH, which raises the KH, which raises the pH. So you now have more CO2, but the same pH. So the controller adds even MORE co2. And it will keep going. So it's important to know your KH whenever using pH to judge CO2 levels. "

This is just too scary.
So does this mean I shouldn't use a controller, I shouldn't have any dissolving carbonates (I have Onyx sand), or what?

Edit: How will I know how to adjust the CO2 without a pH controller?
Do I adjust the co2 and not worry about pH?
But the water changes, man- the water changes!!
Just when I think I have a handle on it my eyes start crossing....

[Cearbhaill]

Ok- I think I am just not understanding HOW we decide how much CO2 to allow into an aquarium.

Do you just start off with fewer bubbles per minute/hour and then check the pH/KH chart to determine your CO2 ppm?
Then adjust daily?

Then just keep the CO2 on the same timer as your lights?
Or leave the CO2 on 24/7 and run an airstone at night?

I do not want to wake up every day and check to see whether my fish are gasping for oxygen or not. I thought this was what the pH controller would control??

I swear to pete I am sober!!

[Jamie]

I too have the milwaulkie set up that some folks are talking about. I also have a 10# CO2 bottle and a pH controller. I bought the regulator and pH controller from www.aquacave.com. It was very reasonably priced and was at my door 2 days after I ordered it. If you order the regulator set-up with the controller you get a $10 price break. Ends up being about $160-170. The shipping wasn't very expensive either...I spent like 8 bucks including some other stuff in my order. I think that the controller is great. I set a pH value, and the controller makes sure that's what the pH stays at. It does this by turning the CO2 flow off or on. As you add CO2, carbonic acid is disolved into the water, lowering the pH. When it cuts off...the opposite happens. In order to utilize the controller, you must have a solenoid valve. The controller works as a power switch for the solenoid, opening and closing your valve. If you set your kH to a known level, then it is very easy to regulate your CO2 ppm. A KH of 4 with a pH of 6.8 set on the controller will give you good results. The system is extremely simple. I got my regulator set up, called around, got a filled 10# bottle for $56, then went home. The regulator assembly simply screws on to the threaded portion of the bottle. If you plan on using the pH controller, plug it in, set your desired pH, throw the electrode into the tank, and plug the regulator solenoid into the pH controller. Make sure your bottle is open, set your regulated pressure to about 10-20 psi and attach your CO2 tubing to your reactor...it's a piece of cake. I think you'll be much less intimidated once you see everything in front of you.

As far as water changes and such, I think the pH controller makes it pretty easy. Just add your dechlorinated tap water and let the controller adjust your pH to the set pH value. After water changes, you will have to double check you KH and make sure it is still aroud 4 degrees (or what ever you decide). By maintaining KH and pH, the proper amount of CO2 will stay constant.

If your power goes out, the only thing that would happen, if you were using a controller, is the CO2 supply would shut off. If this happens it's no big deal. Unless you have a really big gas off through water turbulence, in which case your pH would start to rise. I wouldn't expect a big pH swing otherwise.

To regulate CO2 concentrations without the controller, you have to use the chart Joe gave you. Get a pH reading, get a KH reading, and see where they intersect on the chart. For example, if your KH is 3 degrees and your pH is 6.6, then your CO2 ppm is 23. 20-25 ppm is a good amount that will be great for your plants and won't suffocate your fish. Hypothetically, say you test your water and you have a KH of 4 and your pH is 7.5. You'd want to decrease your pH by adding more CO2 to get a desireable CO2 ppm. So you would increase the rate of CO2 entering the tank. As this happend, carbonic acid is dissolved and pH goes down. Without a controller...YOU MUST BE CAREFULL!!! if you set your CO2 rate too high, too much carbonic acid could be dissolved in the tank and will result in a drastic plumet in pH. This will probably kill your fish through shock or CO2 suffocation. When you make changes, do so VERY gradually. This is why I like my pH controller. I can set the CO2 rate pretty high and not have to worry about it. When the water's pH hits 6.8, the controller shuts off the CO2 flow until the pH is above 6.8 again. On that same CO2 page there is a calculator that figures out the CO2 concentration for you...just fill in the blanks with your water parameters after KH and pH and it will tell you what you CO2 ppm is. P.S. once you enter the values for kh and pH, the CO2 concentration doesn't show up until you click out of the last field you entered in.

Without the controller, you will eventually find a rate that will result in a constant pH. A balance will exist between the co2 entering the tank vs being gassed off.

I know this may sound a bit technical and all, but it is very very simple. If you have any questions, feel free to keep on asking.

-Jamie

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by Cearbhaill
.....HOW we decide how much CO2 to allow into an aquarium.

Do you just start off with fewer bubbles per minute/hour and then check the pH/KH chart to determine your CO2 ppm?
Then adjust daily?

You should check daily - at first - to be safe with the pH Controller or without it. Besides, you need to know how to check you CO2 levels by using that chart. Once you are sure the level is acceptable, then you can check weekly or mabe twice a week. With a Controller less may be fine...

I don't use a pH Controller (yet..) due to the cost of it, but hope to get one..

It's not that scary! The Controller throws a curve ball at me since I don't have one, but it seems like a good way to avoid pH swings. I'm not sure Onyx Sand should cause worry. I use Onyx Sand too...

Can't wait to see you get your CO2 going and you see how the plants love it! :)

[Cearbhaill]

I just can't thank everyone enough for sticking with me on this- I nearly fried my brain on this one.
The tank is running and looking so nice that I just don't want to screw it up- I wish like heck I'd done this before I put the discus in.
I think you'll be much less intimidated once you see everything in front of you.
I'm counting on it.
I'm ordering later today...

[bobalston]

Good luck with your co2 system. I absolutely love mine and am much less intimidated now.

Remember there are lots of people quite willing to help you out should you have a problem in the future.

Bob ;)