Filter Question?

[Sregnar35]

I'm soon starting a 75 FO tank with an approx 3 to 4" sand bed. I have an eheim 2217 external canister filter as my only form of filtration. It's good for tanks up to 160 gallons. I plan on adding some LR down the road, maybe 3 or 4 months from now. My filter has many options for internal media. Different shapes and sizes of substrate for bio filtering and filter wool's used for mech filtering. What should I do, knowing that if I put substrate in the filter it will grow beneficial bacteria to begin, then when I add LR they will compete for bacteria. Can I run the filter with just the filter wool and count on my dsb to be seeded with beneficial bacteria? I'm going to fishless cycle with some coctail shrimp. Or will the dsb not be enough considering I'm not going to be adding LR. I guess 1 of my options is to add substrate to my filter, then when I add the LR, take some of the filter substrate out of the filter and add it to the tank, that's what I've heard? Does anyone have experience with eheim external canister filters in FO or FOWLR setups? Any advise would be greatly apprecited.

[kreblak]

The consensus on cannisters for SW is to run them without media for water movement, and in case you ever need emergency filtration you can add media. Your sand bed should house more than enough bacteria to effectively filter your tank.

I have a HOT filter that I run without the carbon in for added water movement. My sand bed and live rock do my filtration. I don't have a lot of live rock. I have mostly porous base rock, which does the same thing once it is seeded.

[Sregnar35]

I have quite a bit of base rock I'm going to use too, and I might actually get a few lbs of LR to cycle with, I haven't decided. My LFS has it for $9 cured live fiji rock. I might get 6 or 7 lbs to help my tank along. So I understrand now that I don't need substrate in my filter because my dsb will be all I need to sustain bacteria, but should I use any mechaincal filtration media in my filter while I cycle? Or after cycling is complete? I would cut out my mech filter media when I add a cleanup crew right? I'm still not sure if I should use filter media whe I cycle though?

[kreblak]

Mechanical and chemical filtration do not remove ammonia and nitrites form your water, so it really doesn't matter if you use them or not during cycling. I prefer not to use them, as my activated carbon filters (mechanically fitered by mesh) would foul within a couple of days, and be worthless after a week. They get rather expensive to replace every week, and if you don't then you get bits of organic matter trapped in the media that break down into nitrates and foul your water quality.

The least hassle method I have found is to have a couple of powerheads to ensure good water movement, a HOT filter as additional water movement and emergency chemical filtration (if necessary), and a skimmer. Don't skim during cycling. Once your tank has good water quality (zero ammonia and nitrites), do a big water change, add the clean up crew and start skimming to reduce your nitrate levels.

[Sregnar35]

Ok, so then really my filter will just be a water pump, with nothing inside of it at all, and my tank will have NO mechanical filtration? Eheim sells a mesh you can put in your filter that has no activated carbon, it's basically just a box full of floss mesh-like wool. They recommend cleaning this wool filter out every 6 months, but that doesn't sound right? By the way, what do you mean by a HOT filter?

[kreblak]

Every six months?!? That thing will be rancid after one month! SW tanks produce a LOT of crud and such that mechanical filters trap. They must be cleaned or replaced often because of this.

Oh, and sorry, I tend to use a lot of shorthand. HOT stand for hang-on-tank. Basically any filter that hangs off the back or side of your tank.

You are more than justified in using a cannister filter on your tank, with media or without. I have just found that using mechanical filtration on a SW tank is more trouble than it is worth. I was literally replacing my 2 carbon pads every 7 days. At $5.69 + tax a piece that came to $12.18 a week. That doesn't sound too bad, until you realize that you are dumping $633 a year into these stupid activated carbon pads that really didn't make much of a difference in my water! :rolleyes:

In my humble opinion, and in my experience, having adequate water movement (12-20 times water column turnover per hour)and biological filtration are the two most important componants of a successful SW tank.

[Sregnar35]

Thank you Kreblak, you have enlightened yet another newbie!

[kreblak]

That's what we're here for! ;) Keep the questions coming if you have any more. Believe me, I remember how daunting this hobby is at first.

[Sregnar35]

Will do! I'm planning on taking some pictures of my setup and keeping a photo log so everyone can not only learn with me but help me too. I'll try to get some pics of all of my equipment this week. I already built the tank stand, it's going to be mounted in my living room wall, with the back side being in my dining room.

[kreblak]

Sounds like a really great setup! I am jealous. :mad: I know someone who has an in-wall tank and it is gorgeous. He doesn't maintain it himself, though, he has a local company come out and clean it. That takes all the fun out of it! ;)

[Sregnar35]

Yeah, I was watching MTV cribs last night, and Master P I think it was had a probably 1000 gallon reef tank in his bedroom, and he knew nothing about what it was. He said and I quote "Them corals is live and stuff and they all are saltwater fishes" MAN!!! What a great looking setup getting NO RESPECT!!! Anywho, I'm really excited about my setup, I just renovated my living room and built into the wall in the process. We framed the tank with colonial window trim, the same we used for all of the windows in the room, it's going to look killer. I'm hoping to buy a Custom Sea life 260W power compact next spring ( the one with simulated moonlight), should be great. The best part is that as you walk into my house, the first thing you will see is the tank, it's straight ahead as you walk into my house. And you can see the tank from the street too!

[kreblak]

All right, now you've gone and made me mad. I want one! Seriously, though, post some pics when you can. I would love to see this tank. :)

[Sregnar35]

I'll try to take some tonight and post some pre-setup pics!

[Sregnar35]

Well I did a little research and discovered my filter turns about 260gph, in my 75 gallon tank, is that enough for a FO or FOWLR setup?? What steps should I take if it's not. I have no other filters, and I don't have a protein skimmer.

[Sregnar35]

Took some pics last night, but they came out terrible, I'll take some more today. Anyone have any ideas about my filters I posted, is 260gph enough?

[kreblak]

260 GPH in a 75 gallon tank gives you 3.46x water column turnover. The minimum recommended turnover for a tank is 12x. I would suggest adding a powerhead. I have a Hagan aquaclear 802 in my main tank which just flat out blasts water, and I have an aquaclear 201 in my 10 gallon tank. Both have worked very well, both are moronically easy to set up, and if you need to fix one, you can do it yourself. I have replaced a wobbly impeller with no problems, and my DIY skills are not exactly great. Oh, and both powerheads are available for under $30.

Anyway, the reason you need high water turnover is threefold:

1) you need the agitation at the surface to facilitate oxygen diffusion
2) you need the water movement inside your water column to circulate oxygenated water throughout your tank
3) you need flowing oxygenated water to prevent "dead spots" where cyanobacteria (aka slime alage) will take hold and grow quickly out of control.

For your 75 gallon tank, I would make sure that there was between 900 - 1500 GPH turnover. That ought to keep everything nice and tidy for you.

[Sregnar35]

Thanks Kreblak, i'll start shopping. And i'll get some pics up HOPEFULLY tomorrow!

[kreblak]

One word of caution, my LFS has the Aquaclear 802 powerhead listed at $54.99 + tax. That is outrageously high. I got the same powerhead online for $25.99 + S&H, which came to about $31 total. DONT OVERPAY! You'll kick yourslef later. I got mine from www.drsfostersmith.com ;)

[Sregnar35]

Another question, my canister filter cost over $100 and puts out 260gph, and a powerhead filter that's $30 can put out about 700 or 800gph, should I sell my canister filter, is it doing anything for me? I'm not going to be using it for anything but water movement? I could get 3 powerheads for what I paid for the canister!! Also, do most people suction their powerhead pumps externally on their tank glass or do they do something else?

[Sregnar35]

I found alot of good deals on ebay too Kreblak, thanks.

[kreblak]

I would keep your filter, as you never know when you are going to need chemical or mechanical filtration. If a situation ever arises where you need to put some mesh or activaed charcoal in the canister to filter out debris or impurities in your water, you can do so quickly and at minimal cost. Plus, you have already paid for it! If you can return the filter for full price, then the choice is yours. Personally, I keep my HOT filter around just in case I need to run with activated charcoal, which I do every month or so.

For powerhead mounting, Aquaclear powerheads come with a handy adjustable mounting bracket that clips to the tank's walls. I have both my powerheads clipped this way. However, they also came with suction cup mounts, so you can set them up any way you want, really. If you have a bulky lighting setup, then the suction cups may be the way to go. I have a puny lighting setup, so I have room for the clips.

[Sregnar35]

Ok, I guess I'll keep the canister and add a good powerhead, thanks again!

[BrianH]

I would also check out the maxijet powerheads. They have proven their reliability in SW tanks over time and are one of the most recommended powerheads by SW fish keepers.

Brian

[Sregnar35]

Thanks Brian, will do!

[wayne]

It's enough but more would be nice. However , as you will be getting a protein skimmer (question or order), that will add a tiny bit more water movement, so I would also add a power head for the other end of the tank.
So you're going with a dsb right. I'd get the live rock in right from the start as it comes with a built in supply of bacteria and will get your cycle process going quickly , rather than just waiting for some bacteria to turn up.

[Sregnar35]

I hope to add LR but if I can't come up with the $$$ i'll go with the coctail shrimp method. As for a protein skimmer, it's again a $$$ thing. I will get one once I start stocking my tank fully, but I should be ok running my tank with only 1 or 2 fish (clowns, something else similarly sized) right? I plan on starting slow, add the coctail shrimp to cycle running my current filter(260gph) along with my soon to be new powerhead (probably about 700gph). I'll wait til I cycle and then add a clowfish and another small, community tank fish (haven't decided?). I'll give that a few months, add some cured LR and wait a few months again. When I decide to add more fish, I will certainly add a protein skimmer. But from what I've read and been told, a 75g with 1 or 2 average sized fish will be ok without a skimmer, or am I offbase here? Also, I took some pics of my in wall setup, sorry about the picture quality, my camera really sucks.

[kreblak]

That pic isn't too bad. I've definitely seen worse! Anyway, it looks like you've got a good set up from what I could see. For your question:

Skimmers help a lot in my opinion, but I know several people who do not use them. With the bioload you are talking about, you should be all right without one. Also, the filter and powerhead sound like you will have about 950 GPH turnover, which will be very good.

About adding live rock to the tank: I am not a big fan of cycling with live rock. Ammonia kills off many of the hitchhiker organisms living on the rock. When I get live rock, I want all the critters that come with it. Cycling with live rock, or using live rock to shorten the cycle, will kill off a significant portion of the hitchhikers. A lot of people use live rock to cycle, I just like to use the shrimp. Yes, it takes longer to grow your own bacterial bed, but I like my live rock unsullied. If you have the patience (6 to 9 weeks worth) then just toss in the shrimp and wait for your DSB to grow your biofilter. Also, if you can get a scoop or two of sand form an established tank, that will cut your cycling time, as you are "seeding" your DSB.

[BrianH]

I would suggest adding 2 or 3 smaller powerheads (300 gph or so)than 1 large powerhead as you mentioned. Having multiple powerheads will ensure that you can get current to all parts of the tank and hopefully avoid having dead spots in your tank.

Also consider that if you wait to add live rock you will have to purchase cured LR from an LFS unless you plan to cure LR outside of your tank. Remember that cured LR from the LFS is usually at least twice as expensive as buying uncured LR online.

Brian

[Sregnar35]

From the little I know, that sounds like the way to go Kreblak. I thought the same thing about LR, if you cycle with it, the ammonia is going to destroy alot of what you just paid for?? So you think my plan is ok then. Basically 950gph, cycle with shrimp, and about 6 or 7 inches worth of fish, then some LR, and then add a skimmer when I'm ready for more fish?

[Sregnar35]

That's true Brian, my LFS sells cured LR for $8.99 lb!! But I want to do this right, time is of no concern, so i'll do a fishless cycle, then add some LR when I can afford more than 2 LB!!!!

[kreblak]

Sounds like you have a solid plan. Nothing fancy, just the basics. My LFS sells cured live rock for $7.99 a lb. Online you can get live rock much cheaper. www.gulf-view.com has some great live rock, with lots of life. Plus it is aquacultured rock, so they aren't harming any natural reefs by collecting it.

One thing I should mention, you can get base rock cheap ($2 a pound sometimes). A lot of people put base rock under the live rock, so that they don't have to buy so much live rock. Base rock essentially becomes live rock once the live rock grows over onto it. Look into tufa rock or porous stones that you can get cheap, and build a solid aquascape on, and then just add the live rock over the base rock. Doing this saved me a bundle of cash. Your LFS ought to have some good, cheap, porous base rock available.

[Sregnar35]

They do have a bunch of base rock cheap. I actually found about 20 pieces of base rock, coral and shells in my front yard! The woman I bought my house from used to go to florida and collect rocks, shells and other things. I'm going to boil them, and bleach them and then dechlorinate them before adding them. I'm planning on cycling with them in my tank, and possibly adding some LR right after my cycle. That's the one thing I'm not sure of yet, but chances are I will add maybe 5 or 6 lbs of LR just after my cycle, and then add some fish and some cleaners (snails, crabs, maybe a shrimp). Should work...I hope!

[Sregnar35]

Just bought 2 maxi-jet powerhead 1200's for $47 bucks on ebay, shipping included!! They each do 295gph on top of my 260 canister, should be well on my way!

[BrianH]

I would check out gulf-view (http://www.gulf-view.com) as kreblak suggested. This rock comes with tons of life, delivered to your door for about $4.40per lb.

By the way, cycling your tank with LR is one of the correct ways to cycle a tank. Remember that the LFS has to cure the LR also, and many of them do this without light, water changes and skimming so IMHO the LR you get from them comes with less life than rock you cure yourself. The gulf-view rock has much much more life than rock sold at most lfs's.

Brian