black ich.......HELP!!!!

[braelynsNemo]

after 8 weeks of my tank being fishless... my clown and puffer in a different qt than my tang with the first bout of ich i put them back in the display tank and a week later what do you know my tang has black ich now... i have been in the process of setting up my 75 gal for her to call home. now she has exposed my clown , puffer to black ich. so my question is...... has anyone had any luck with quick cure? and since i read up that the worms live in the sand .. would it be bad of me to just replace the sand when i put them back in to qt? i do know that the puffer cant have meds .. they show no sign of it as of now. so back off to qt they go. ill make sure my tang is in her own qt alone... :cry:

[Amphiprion]

Are you sure it has Paravortex? You want to be sure before you try to treat anything. A formalin bath and quarantine are easily done, but again, that is assuming that is the case.

[braelynsNemo]

she has been bashing herself into the rocks...i noticed it on her fin and now its on her head... it started out white 2 days ago and i thought maybe it was the sand because it had gotten stirred up a bit during my water change.. but now its black and she keeps scratching .... it drives me nuts i just wanna pick it off her.. i feel bad.

[cmar]

my lfs said that black ich is pretty rare. turns out my tang had parasites, and a simple, totally safe medication cured it within days! somehow, try to be sure of what it really is, and i know that it can be difficult to do! but, hopefully, it's something minor, like i had.
good luck!

[saltydunc]

my yellow tang had black ich when i got him....i treated him with FW dips...i had to dip him twice over a space of 3 days but it worked a treat...the way i done it was to make sure the FW was of the same temp and ph of the aquarium water then dip the fish in for about 8mins keeping a close eye on the fish then lift it out with a net and gently slide the fish from side to side in the net on both sides of the fish...then i put him in a bucket of my regular tank water...let him sit in there for about 10 mins then use a different net to put him back in the main tank....i had to do this twice and it worked....hope thats a help :)

[Dee6991]

Very hard to get rid of Black Ick,,,,,FW dips help,BUT thats only part of the problem.what you see (meaning the black spec's,like black pepper)is the stage their feeding on your fish & drop off into the sand/crushed coral base & re-cycle them selfs every 3-6 days....UV sterlizers work well & also try too find a TRUE cleaner wrasse

[Catpicklesdog]

I have to disagree about finding a true cleaner wrasse. They have a dismal survival rate in home aquaria and serve a far better purpose in the wild. That's why I will never get another one:)

[wellsm2]

I had paravortex on my yellow tang, and just fed him well and kept an eye on him. I never had to quarantine, because after about two months the spots went away and haven't been back for over a year.

[Dee6991]

In cases of live parasites (paravortex),cleaner wrasse's will live a very long time.....The parasites will always keep cycling;Very hard to get rid of them ,therefor a cleaner wrasse will always get their main diet in the little bugger's..(that's why there called CLEANERS)..YES,without parasite's they do die after several month's of malnutrition,reguardless of how GOOD they eat from the food that's out there......I should know, I'vd owned mine for over 2 yrs. & YES, I have BLACK ICK also on a Yellow Tang,also owned for 3 yrs.

[Ace25]

Second time I have seen CPD mention cleaner wrasses as a no-no. Not that I am doubting you, but can you please provide more information on your statement? I have google searched and only see other people on forums repeat what your saying, that they should be left in the ocean and have a low survival rate in an aquarium, but I don't see any real data backing that up. Kind of like when people say don't ever use an aquarium that was treated with copper, complete myth if you wash/rinse the tank out good.

Reason I ask is I have had a cleaner wrasse for some time now, and it gets VERY fat at feeding, eats like a pig off of Rod's food. Sometimes I think its belly is going to pop it gets that big. The wrasse did clean a very small bout of ich off my angel but it was just a few spots when first introduced. The cleaner wrasse made quick work of it and haven't seen a sign of normal ich since the first few days the angel was added. There are about 20 people in my reefclub that have cleaner wrasses in their tanks and I have not heard of anyone losing one. Some club members have had theirs over 3+ years, one actually has had his for over 5 years.

Now.. back on the topic of Scientific names.. which cleaner wrasse are you referring to because I have seen quite a few different fish called a cleaner wrasse, some definately do not last at all in an aquarium, but it seems the one I and local reef club members have are quite hardy in an aquarium and will eat both frozen (rods, brine, mysis, spirulina) as well as nori with a passion.

Here is the wrasse I am talking about.. is this the same one your thinking of CPD?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/2857795218_7192019eda.jpg

[Ace25]

Ok, been doing some reading, and I have to say your wrong CPD only because you are generalizing all cleaner wrasses as the same. Here is some information I found, specifically about the cleaner wrasse I have, Labroides dimidiatus.

Source: (http://gobiestogrizzlies.blogspot.com/2008/06/coming-clean-on-cleaners.html)

Although the cleaner wrasses vary somewhat in their aquarium suitability, most members of this genus are considered difficult to maintain long-term in the home aquarium. There may be one exception to this – it is the bluestreak cleaner wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus). Although we have long considered it difficult to keep this species in North America, unless it was held with numerous fishes on which to “graze,” the Europeans consider it a good beginners fish! It is so popular there, that in 2002 it was one of the top ten species exported to the European Union. The Europeans report some encouraging longevity records. For example, the Nancy Aquarium, France has kept L. dimidiatus for over 11 years, while a lifespan of over six years has been reported to me by several European reef-keepers.


There is also evidence that indicates these wrasses will pick off the cyst-phase of the flatworm (Paravortex sp.), which is commonly referred to as black ich (a.k.a. yellow tang disease).

[Dee6991]

THANK YOU! Great job Ace .....That's the (True) Cleaner Wrasse I own....Along w/ a 6-liner...

[Reefscape]

Ok, been doing some reading, and I have to say your wrong CPD only because you are generalizing all cleaner wrasses as the same. Here is some information I found, specifically about the cleaner wrasse I have, Labroides dimidiatus.

Source: (http://gobiestogrizzlies.blogspot.com/2008/06/coming-clean-on-cleaners.html)


Rather than stating that someone is "wrong", maybe more reading would be a good idea Ace25..Open the mind to more opinions than just your own..

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm ( that write up relates to your specific species of cleaner wrasse )

That is one example of a nice write up as to why Labroides dimidiatus should be left out in the ocean

Just because yourself and a few select others have kept these with success, does not make it a solid species of fish to keep in the home aquaria. The bigger picture needs to be looked at, and not just a few specific cases.

Thanks..

[Amphiprion]

I agree with Reefscape. While L. dimidiatus would be the most suitable cleaner species for aquaria, that doesn't necessarily mean they fare that well, overall, either. The same applies to most anemones--look how many fail to survive versus the very, very few that do.

[Catpicklesdog]

To clarify,

Perhaps I should have said, I don't agree with getting a fish just to sort a problem, unless you were planning on getting it anyway.

The rest I stand by.

I was referring to Labroides dimidiatus. I know some can survive in captivity, I should do, I've had mine for 3 years, but I bought mine before doing any research into them, and since reading in various books and websites that they are best left in the wild, is the reason why I won't get another.

You are right Ace - to a point. I shouldn't have generalised, and yes in my recent habit of using scientific names I should have been more specific. But

Labroides dimidiatus
" bicolor
" pectoralis
" phthirophagus
" rubrolaciatus
Labropsis alleni
Larabicus quadrillineatus

are all classed as "cleaner wrasses" from all that I've read, and all are classed as having a poor survival rate in captivity. I'm afraid , in my ignorance, they are the only "cleaner wrasses" I know of.

So back to my original statement, I still think they are better left off in the wild. We are able to find alternative treatments for the fishes in our tanks, unfortunately, the fishes in the wild need them more than us.

And so everyone can make up their own minds, here's the whole article that Ace25 is referring to:

The cleaner wrasse genus Labroides is comprised of five very species that rely almost entirely on cleaning to obtain nutrients as both juveniles and adults. Cleaning behavior is defined as a mutualistic relationship that exists between certain parasite-picking fishes and their piscine neighbors (the client or host species). The cleaner wrasse removes parasites, and also some slime and scales, from the client fish. This benefit to the client is that it hosts fewer annoying parasites.

Although the cleaner wrasses vary somewhat in their aquarium suitability, most members of this genus are considered difficult to maintain long-term in the home aquarium. There may be one exception to this – it is the bluestreak cleaner wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus). Although we have long considered it difficult to keep this species in North America, unless it was held with numerous fishes on which to “graze,” the Europeans consider it a good beginners fish! It is so popular there, that in 2002 it was one of the top ten species exported to the European Union. The Europeans report some encouraging longevity records. For example, the Nancy Aquarium, France has kept L. dimidiatus for over 11 years, while a lifespan of over six years has been reported to me by several European reef-keepers.

The biggest problem with the Labroides involves feeding. With the possible exception of L. dimidiatus, most species reject captive fare. As a result, they rely totally on the ectoparasites and slime present on their fish tankmates to meet their nutritional needs. This may not be as big of a problem if you have a large tank that has lots of potential clients, the cleaner wrasse may be able to acquire enough nutrients by grazing slime, and the occasional parasite. But if there is relatively little grazing surface (i.e., fish bodies), then the cleaner will not get enough food to stay alive. Not all potential hosts are as valuable a food source as others (that is, those species that produce more slime are more desirable). Therefore, the types of fishes you keep the cleaner with may impact its chances of survival as well. Those species of cleaner wrasses (e.g., L. phthirophagus) that rely heavily on fish slime as a nutrient source, will usually perish in quick order in most home aquariums. There is an occasional cleaner wrasse (usually individual L. dimidiatus) that will accept foods like finely chopped shrimp, mysid shrimp, frozen brine, freeze-dried tubifex worms, or even frozen prepared foods, and flake foods. One way to induce a finicky cleaner to feed is to present them with a live or fresh mussel that has had the valves forced open so that they can pick at the “meat” within.

Cleaner Wrasse Pros and Cons

Unfortunately for the aquarist, cleaner wrasses do not consume the most problematic aquarium parasites - the protozoa and dinoflagellates. Therefore, cleaners are not recommended as a means of biological control of for ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) or velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) outbreaks. But cleaner wrasses will control another group of parasites that frequently infect our fishes. It has been shown that the cleaning behavior of the bluestreak cleaner wrasse can reduce the number of the monogenetic flatworms (Benedenia lolo) in aquarium-held fishes. (Food choice studies have shown that when given a choice of four different foods [mucus, parasitic monogenean flatworms, gnathiid isopods, and a control] the bluestreak cleaner wrasse fed more on mucus and monogeneans.) While the L. dimidiatus did not eliminate all of the flatworms, they did help keep their numbers in check. There is also evidence that indicates these wrasses will pick off the cyst-phase of the flatworm (Paravortex sp.), which is commonly referred to as black ich (a.k.a. yellow tang disease). As a result, the Labroides spp. may also aid in controlling the outbreak of this ectoparasite in a closed system. Finally, bluestreak cleaner wrasse will remove the cauliflower-like growths associated with the viral infection Lymphocystis.

But adding a cleaner wrasse to a tank of fishes also has a downside. There are some “costs” associated with visiting a cleaner wrasse. The Labroides feed on host mucus, scales, and skin, especially when ectoparasites are in short supply. Because most of the parasites on the cleaners bill-of-fare are in short supply in the home aquarium, the captive Labroides will ingest larger quantities of fish slime and scales in order to survive. Because of a loss of its external protection, a “captive client” is likely to be more susceptible to bacterial infections and infections by protozoa and dinoflagellate parasites. It is only logical that a cleaner is going to be more of a menace in a smaller tank that contains fewer potential clients to feed off of. Therefore, if you are going to keep a Labroides, it would be wise to house it in a larger tank with a relatively large fish community. In a large tank it will also be easier for potential clients to avoid the attentions of a cleaner wrasse.

A client fish that gets nipped by a cheating Labroides may retaliate by chasing it off. This behavior is commonly seen in the aquarium and can be problematic for the cleaner, as certain tankmates may persistently attack it anytime it comes near. On rare occasions, a exasperated fish may turn on the cleaner and kill it. For example, triggerfishes have been known to dispatch an annoying cleaner wrasse. On the other hand, Labroides will sometimes hound less maneuverable species, like puffers, trunkfishes, and porcupinefishes, causing them great duress. This pestering may even elicit an Ostracion trunkfish to emit its deadly toxins and wipe out a whole captive community. A confused cleaner might persistently attempt to nip at and chase fishes with small spots. In some cases, it appears that the cleaner is attempting to feed on the “parasite-like” markings.

Copyright (2008) Scott W. Michael
As you can see, that article was written by Scott Michael (found here (http://gobiestogrizzlies.blogspot.com/2008/06/coming-clean-on-cleaners.html)) who has also written A PocketExpert guide to marine fishes in which he states (on page 299):

...However, even this species will fare poorly unless kept with a large community of fishes from which it can browse mucus and parasites. This species is more likely to accept substitute foods, although not with gusto. In general, MOST AQUARIST ARE WELL ADVISED TO AVOID CLEANER WRASSES, both because they have low survival rates in captivity and because their removal from the reef may deprive wild populations of valuable parasite-cleaning services.

[Ace25]

Rather than stating that someone is "wrong", maybe more reading would be a good idea Ace25..Open the mind to more opinions than just your own..

Just because yourself and a few select others have kept these with success, does not make it a solid species of fish to keep in the home aquaria. The bigger picture needs to be looked at, and not just a few specific cases.

Thanks..

First off Reefscape.. how about reading my entire sentance.. You say "rather than stating someone is wrong..", but my words were actually "your wrong only because you are generalizing..." BIG difference between calling someone flat out wrong and calling someone wrong due to a simple mistake of grouping all into one (you know, like says all of "X" race is bad because this one person from "X" race killed a family member, so that means everyone in that persons race is bad.)

See, this is where we are going to differ on opinions. My personal experience is that I have never known anyone locally to have any problems with this specific cleaner wrasse. If we are going by survival rates of fish in my local reef club as deciding factor of what fish should or should not be kept in an aquarium, then I will say I have heard and seen many many times more tangs die in the aquarium than I have cleaner wrasses. Does that mean I should be telling people that tangs are not a suitable fish for anyone to keep? No.

Let me ask you.. when you personally know 20 people just in your little geographic area that has all have pefect success with their cleaner wrasses, but yet, over 50% of these people have lost a Tang, angel, anthias, chromis, clowns, etc in the same tank and time period that they have had the cleaner wrasse, wouldn't you start to think that "hey, maybe these cleaner wrasses are not as delicate as people led me to believe because my own personal experience is telling me otherwise." My point being, don't just spout off stuff you read in a book as absolute truth. Poll your local reef club on their experience... have your own personal experience as well. If you notice, when I post, I post my experiences.. not things I have read in a book and repeat as fact. I understand 20 is not a large number, but 20/20 success stories IS a good indication. When I see 10 people just in my very small geographic area have a specific fish for over 3 years without a single loss and one person over 5 years.. to me, that says that is a pretty hardy fish. The whole "leave the fish in the wild were it belongs" statement is just BS. That can be said for ANY fish... and the bluestreak cleaner wrasse is not on any endangered list, heck, it was one of the top 10 most imported fish in the EU a few years back. While it may not be the hardiest of fish out there, it sure beats alot of others (dragonettes come to mind).

CPD - I see what your saying, and I understand why you are saying it.. Your CAPSLOCKING also helped out. "MOST AQUARIST ARE WELL ADVISED TO AVOID CLEANER WRASSES", most people would advise against skydiving as well, but plenty of people still do it with great success ;) . If your going to get on a high horse about taking something out of the wild that provides a service to others in the wild, why aren't you doing the same for cleaner shrimp as well? Do they not provide very similar services to the wild as the cleaner wrasse? Personally, I chose the cleaner wrasse over the cleaner shrimp because of the mortality rate of cleaner shrimp vs cleaner wrasses.

[Catpicklesdog]

I wasn't on my high horse, I should have typed JMO but you're quite right about creatures we take out of the ocean, but it's also a topic that can be argued on everything we have in our tanks. I have both a cleaner shrimp and a cleaner wrasse:)

Maybe another way to look at this whole scenario, is the fact that things do change in this hobby. Maybe our setups are now better equipped to deal with these more "delicate" creatures, than when the articles and books were writen. Look at undergravel filters for example.

Your 20/20 scenario is an excellent example, against my statement. What would also be interesting is what are all those set ups? Are they big tanks, small tanks etc. I'm not asking for the info, just chucking out the question to see if it does also fit in with the above article info, that they last in larger tanks, or with more tankmates (overstocking)?

As with a lot of things in this hobby, a lot of info is down to personal experience and different opinions and it's up to the reader to make the final decision.:)

JMO:)

[Amphiprion]

This very well could break down to a regional thing, but in our area, cleaner wrasses rarely, if ever, do well--this includes all species, except for a Larabicus quadrilineatus housed in a 1000 gallon tank with lots of Acropora. Most of the shipments we get of them do poorly. This is what I experienced working at 3 different LFSs. It could be certain distributors catering to certain regions get better stock--or it could be as simple as shorter shipment times. Each of the 3 LFSs I worked at used fairly different sources, with a few exceptions. In most, if not all cleaner wrasse shipments, the survival was terrible--maybe 1 out of 50 or so in the long term.

Edit: This is referring to L. dimidiatus

[GregAW]

Here is the wrasse I am talking about.. is this the same one your thinking of CPD?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/2857795218_7192019eda.jpg

What is the name of this wrasse?

[Amphiprion]

What is the name of this wrasse?

Labroides dimidiatus or the blue streaked/striped cleaner wrasse.

[GregAW]

Labroides dimidiatus or the blue streaked/striped cleaner wrasse.

Thanks, How many can you keep together?

[Amphiprion]

They occur singly, in monogamous pairs, and in small haremic groups in the wild. A pair is more feasible in aquaria, but heed all the potential drawbacks to these fish as discussed above. They are hermaphrodites, btw.

[GregAW]

They occur singly, in monogamous pairs, and in small haremic groups in the wild. A pair is more feasible in aquaria, but heed all the potential drawbacks to these fish as discussed above. They are hermaphrodites, btw.

:) I won't look at these for a while. But I'll remember and be cautious. Thanks

[Reefscape]

First off Reefscape.. how about reading my entire sentance.. You say "rather than stating someone is wrong..", but my words were actually "your wrong only because you are generalizing..." BIG difference between calling someone flat out wrong and calling someone wrong due to a simple mistake of grouping all into one (you know, like says all of "X" race is bad because this one person from "X" race killed a family member, so that means everyone in that persons race is bad.)

See, this is where we are going to differ on opinions. My personal experience is that I have never known anyone locally to have any problems with this specific cleaner wrasse. If we are going by survival rates of fish in my local reef club as deciding factor of what fish should or should not be kept in an aquarium, then I will say I have heard and seen many many times more tangs die in the aquarium than I have cleaner wrasses. Does that mean I should be telling people that tangs are not a suitable fish for anyone to keep? No.

Let me ask you.. when you personally know 20 people just in your little geographic area that has all have pefect success with their cleaner wrasses, but yet, over 50% of these people have lost a Tang, angel, anthias, chromis, clowns, etc in the same tank and time period that they have had the cleaner wrasse, wouldn't you start to think that "hey, maybe these cleaner wrasses are not as delicate as people led me to believe because my own personal experience is telling me otherwise." My point being, don't just spout off stuff you read in a book as absolute truth. Poll your local reef club on their experience... have your own personal experience as well. If you notice, when I post, I post my experiences.. not things I have read in a book and repeat as fact. I understand 20 is not a large number, but 20/20 success stories IS a good indication. When I see 10 people just in my very small geographic area have a specific fish for over 3 years without a single loss and one person over 5 years.. to me, that says that is a pretty hardy fish. The whole "leave the fish in the wild were it belongs" statement is just BS. That can be said for ANY fish... and the bluestreak cleaner wrasse is not on any endangered list, heck, it was one of the top 10 most imported fish in the EU a few years back. While it may not be the hardiest of fish out there, it sure beats alot of others (dragonettes come to mind).

CPD - I see what your saying, and I understand why you are saying it.. Your CAPSLOCKING also helped out. "MOST AQUARIST ARE WELL ADVISED TO AVOID CLEANER WRASSES", most people would advise against skydiving as well, but plenty of people still do it with great success ;) . If your going to get on a high horse about taking something out of the wild that provides a service to others in the wild, why aren't you doing the same for cleaner shrimp as well? Do they not provide very similar services to the wild as the cleaner wrasse? Personally, I chose the cleaner wrasse over the cleaner shrimp because of the mortality rate of cleaner shrimp vs cleaner wrasses.

Yes, as a matter of fact, i do have the experience with this fish, and seen first hand the mortality rates which go with its reputation. I believe that holds me in good stead to stand by my thoughts and to agree with articles that state they suffer from a high motality rate in captivity.

I bid continued good luck to the 20 people who have them successfully, however, that is but a mere tiny portion when you look at the larger picture, which is what i stated in my previous post.

Thanks..

[saltydunc]

This fish is the best cleaner to use...tank bred ..hardy and a great fish into the bargain...the neon goby.. had him for about 2 weeks now and he does a great job of cleaning my fish.
Ive kept a cleaner wrasse and it was eating fine and looked fat and happy then one day he just died for no apparent reason after about 1 year...maybe he was a good age when i got him i don't know.
Heres the little guy in action on my orange shoulder tang.

[GregAW]

Are you sure of the name of that fish? I've been looking at online fish stores and can't seem to find anything named that in the goby line. Looks more like a Orange Shoulder Tang - Acanthurus olivaceus. I'm just guessing.

[Catpicklesdog]

67092

The goby is circled:)

These are Neon Gobies (http://www.marinecenter.com/fish/gobies/bluestripeneongoby/)

[saltydunc]

thanks catpicklesdog ;)

[GregAW]

Thanks, I didn't even see that. :)

[1wizz]

This thread has made me laugh and made me cry, it just go to prove the amount of different experiences and heartfelt opinions of all fish keepers when talking about suitable fish and their habitats.
I think we all do our best and after 5 years in the hobby I'm still learning and willing to listen, trying to take on board all points of view.
As for my two pennies worth, it states in one of the articles about surviving cleaner wrasses stripping their hosts protective mucus away, bring about more problems for the host causing probable premature death.
Ace you say your club members have suffered loses of fish more often than they have lost cleaners could there be any connection?
I also believe a glass box of any size is poor substitute for the ocean and thank all the advances in science and technology for helping make my little slice of the reef possible.
And also you guys/girls too, I like many others find my friends here invaluable..............