Compact Fluorescent...

[Mouflon44]

Where is the cheapest place to buy compact fluorescent fixtures?
Do HD or Lowe's carry any high output fluor or CFs? Our local Lowes only has only NO flour. I'm looking for the cheapest way to span an 8' by 3' area with adequate lighting for a planted tank.
I had thought of maybe getting 4 - 3' fixtures and spreading them out width-wise about 2' apart. Would this do if I used CFs?

[djlen]

There really is no inexpensive way to light with CF, especially with an area of that size.
www.ahsupply.com can give you a variety of suggestions as to how to do it with DIY hoods that would save a bit, but the lighting itself will be expensive.
Much also depends on the depth of the tank. If it's more than say 24 - 30" you will need more wattage to reach the substrate where many of the plants will be.

Len

[Mouflon44]

Thanks djlen, that's kinda what I was afraid of. Is there no magic left in the world?
I want my cake and eat it too!

I can hear my wife now.... " I thought you said you were going to keep it cheap and get a freshwater tank!" :rolleyes:

...but honey I neeeed the HUGE tank... and the flourite, and the CF lights... and umpteen million assorted other gadgets... :D

[djlen]

Sooooooooooo..........how deep is it and how many gallons......so we can all drool??!!??

You could start with NO lighting and upgrade later.

Len

[125gJoe]

I need pics!
Just joking, but it would be nice to see the "project"...
Good choice (or best) on substrates..!
Can't really help on the lighting.. I got my CF's at Custom SeaLife and most likely there are better prices elsewhere. You might want to check them out anyway..

[Mouflon44]

Sorry, no pics to take yet(except a pile of lumber). This is going to be an in wall plywood planted freshwater tank.
As I have it planned at the moment, the dimensions will be 96x36x26(about 400 gallons). Because room is of no concern I started out planning a 96x48x26(about 520 gallons). I decided to scale it back after looking at the added cost of the extra foot of width. More fluorite, more light, more gallons to filter, more evaporation, plus, I can't recall reading where anyone else has a tank that wide. Maybe there is a reason? I guess the water would have to be extra clear to appreciatively see thru 4 feet of water to the back. I would have to take my shoes off and wade in it to plant plants in the middle front. :D

Spanning that large an area with a top or lighting system complicates the issue too. A friend of mine welds aluminum and stated he could weld me a 4'x8' frame to mount my lights and we could mount a remote-controlled hoist in the rafters above to raise and lower the whole thing whenever I needed to "work" on it. Still thinking that one over.

But I still haven't decided for sure. Anyone have any opinions on 3' width as opposed to 4'? would it be worth it? I considered building a rather large background using the styrofoam or "great stuff" methods to take up a large portion of the back and therefore reduce some of the area...

I will start on the stand this coming week (12'x4' regardless of tank size) and after that I will be forced to make a decision. My friends/helpers are already becoming impatient with me, but I want to reduce my regrets as much as possible. It took me 5 years to finalize my house design,(my wife was ready to kill me), but the "tank room" was in it from the beginning and after one year, my regrets have been very minor. Needless to say, I have been waiting on this project for a looooong time.

Would you rather go with $400+ worth of flourite and skimp on lights till a later date? or use a cheaper composite substrate and go with nicer CF fixtures across the top? Or do you sink your money in Ehiem filters? how many filters for 500 gallons? Diatom Vortex filters? I'm getting dizzy.
I have made one concrete decision, no CO2 for now. That can definitely wait until I get some experience under my belt.
Dang, I got a little longwinded, sorry, I'll shut up for now. :o

PS- I will try and document this project for any interested.

[Timmain42]

Consider the width of your tank (at least 36" from front to back). Are you going to have access to both the front and back sides? If not, you may have problems. For example:

I have a 96"x24"x24" tank, planted and well-lit. However, since it's REALLY in-wall, I can't get to the front side of the tank, which means that I have to access all the plants in the front from the back side of the tank... my arms can barely reach! I'm trying to imagine what reaching across three feet of space and down two feet will be like...

I hope you can remove some water from the tank when you're working on it, so that if you fall in, the displaced water won't flood your house.

edit::sorry, not quite on topic, but it crossed my mind as I was reading those tank specs.

[125gJoe]

Patience, save up some money, but I'd stick with the Flourite...

[JLudwig]

Would you rather go with $400+ worth of flourite and skimp on lights till a later date?

Flourite really depends on what you're trying to grow... if you plan on mostly stems, I would can the Flourite and go with corse blasting sand (looks a lot better too IMO). Flourite is great for stuff like swords, crypts, B. longifolia - heavy root feeders. But for bunch plants those roots do nothing than anchor the plant down. I've talked to a few pros who really feel flourite is a bit overrated (in varying degrees of course!)... if you only plan on having a few root feeders, maybe use Jobes/Flourish tabs in just those spots...

BTW - Those who I talked to who don't use flourite are dosing over 3ml Flourish / 3ml Flourish Iron per 30 gallons daily (this is the low end): they are really hammering their tanks with traces.

[djlen]

I use flourite and Still "hammer" the tank with traces and especially Fe. I can't believe how Crypts respond to Fe.
It's a beautiful thing.

I hope you don't regret those dimensions. That tank is going to be a bear to maintain. I simply couldn't do it. My arms are just too short. I have to take off my t-shirt to work the substrate in my 55's and they are only 22" deep. I'd have to buy a snorkel to work in your tank.

Len

[Mouflon44]

I hope you don't regret those dimensions. That tank is going to be a bear to maintain.

Yeah, that has me concerned. How often can I expect to be digging around in the substrate? Are you mainly just moving plants or replanting plants?
If I stay away from the big fish that like to wreak havoc with planted tanks, should I still expect to be doing a lot of maintainance in the substrate?.
Do you think this would be a daily thing? If so, I may have to scale back even more, because I agree it will be hard to reach especially the front of the middle. I will have NO access to the front. I might be able to alter the wall in front of the tank and make a flap across the front above the tank that I could lift up and gain access that way. I will have access to both sides though. Maybe I could leave a space in the front middle that is open, gravel only.

[DIYMatt]

How often you are in the tank maintaining it could also depend on what you plan to grow. But, I would expect to be "in" it weekly. If you plan on having a lot of fast growing stem plants, you may be in there quite often. You would be cutting and replanting almost weekly. Especially at first, when I first set up a plant tank, I am in it at least twice a week. If you plan to have have just swords and other root plants, not as often. Whats on the other side of the wall? IMO you are going to want to have access to tank that size from both sides. Otherwise, make that flap large enough for you to get most of your body over the tank. You will need that to access the back bottom of the tank, if you can't access it form the back. Sounds like a dream tank, I will someday have a large in wall tank that can viewed from two rooms, I'm jealous.

For lighting, I agree, you can't really get off cheap and still grow a wide variety plants. If you were going to stick to mid - low light plants, a dozen or so 4' shopilghts might do the trick. But, at that depth any of the high light foreground plants would be out of the question for sure. Also, you would want the bulbs almost in the water, and you would need a way to raise them to acces the tank. Have you looked at MH? Are you confortable wiring up your own lights? If so, MH may be the cheapest option watt for watt at high wattage levels. Also, MH produces about the same heat watt to watt vs CF. It just seems to be more because its concentrated in one spot. I would go with three 250w or two 400 MH's in that tank. And space them out so you can group your high light plants under the bulb. At various places online you can pick up 250 W MH ballasts for $45-$70 ea, 400W for $60-100 ea., sockets for about $20 ea., bulbs $20 - $100 ea. (I use the $20 ones!). Although, your true "plant" bulb (read expensive, but somewhat better) options are limited at 400w. You would just need to wire it up, which is very simple, and find a way to mount it and I would suggest a reflector. With either CF or MH I would suggest finding a way to vent the lights to prevent heat build up.If you want more details on a DIY MH setup let me know.

[djlen]

I agree with Matt. Much of the maintenance will depend on the types of plants and the lighting.
Rosette plants(Swords etc.) need much less maintenance than stem plants which, in high light w/CO2 need to be pulled, pruned and replanted at least weekly in many cases.
If you were to put slow growing plants like Anubia and Cryptocorne in the center front you'd have much less to do in that area.
Another thing I just thought of is that when you dose ferts regularly and have a good deal of glass algae build up on the front glass. I personally have not found a way around having to scrub the glass on a weekly basis, but then again, I dose a lot of Traces and Fe to maintain my plants.
You'll need to figure a way to reach the bottom-front of the glass to keep it clean or the tank will look dirty. Maybe a scraper on a long handle of some sort will do the job for you. They make magnetic cleaners for the glass, but the substrate line on the front glass panel needs to be done with a scrubb pad occasionally.
With careful planning in these areas, you could get away with less 'swimming' and more enjoyment.

Len

[DIYMatt]

I use ancistrus cats, ottos, lots of snails and occassionly a magnetic scraper to keep the glass clean. I have found that when I start to see algae buildup on the glass it means I am slightly overdosing the Fe. So, I discontinue the Fe for a little while. But, I generally run my tanks lean anyways to keep the algae not visible. I agree with Len, the substrate line must be done by hand. The magnetic scrpaers will pick up small peices of gravel and stratch the glass, I know from experience:(

[Mouflon44]

What's on the other side of the wall?


The tank is in the unfinished half of the basement (16'x30')and the viewing side is an informal den/rec room(26'x30'). The aquarium wall was made with the "window" for the aquarium when the house was being built. I will have good access to the back and sides of the tank, but the front will be a problem. I may take djlen's advice and carefully plan that area for low maintenance. The front will be the only "finished" viewable side. I have thought about adding a small window on each side just "so I can see back there!". :D But that back area will not be very pleasing to look at with all the hoses, filters, etc. It will be for my eyes only. :)

I don't know enough to say what kind of plants I will have to start. Most likely I will start with some low-light low-maintenance plants?, maybe swords?, anubias?, and some floating plants?
I'm not familiar with "stem" plants. Before I get to the point of filling the tank I plan on increasing my knowledge of the different plants and their needs and making the best decision I can. (Basically let you guys tell me what I need)

As far as lights go, I'm not set on what kind I will use. I hadn't really considered MH because I got the impression you needed CO2 along with those. I imagine I could use them but keep them higher off the water to begin with and at some later date lower them and start CO2. I definitely like the estimates you quoted on DIY MH. THe biggest dilemma is the evaporation involved with an open tank. Using the MH I would have to have the tank completely open. That much surface area would create a lot of evaporation I'm afraid. I read where someone had trouble with their open tank in the basement due to high evaporation and eventually had to shut it down it got so bad. If the evaporation wasn't enough to damage the floor above I would most likely go with MH. The ceiling above the tank isn't finished, the floor above is exposed through the rafters. I fear that constant heat from the MHs combined with the evaporation might build moisture in the rafters above. Not good.

Can High-pressure Sodium lights be used for aquarium plants?

I have also considered DIY strip lighting (either T5s or CF) and putting glass panels width-wise in between them to sorta cover the tank and hopefully decrease evaporation. How does that sound?

As far as algae on the front glass, I don't have an answer. What am I saying? I don't seem to have an answer for anything yet. :D With either a 3' or 4' width I will have to find a way to deal with it, maybe long handled scraper, or maybe waders. Maybe a removable catwalk above the tank? Remove the lights and lay on it to reach the front glass? ... Nah, sounds like a disaster in the making.

OK, you devils make good advocates, so keep'em comin'. ;)

[DIYMatt]

Wow, I am so jealous of your tank. As far as algae on the front glass, it sounds like a magnetic scraper and a longhandled scraper will do the trick.

I don't know of anyone using HPS lights for aquariums. They are even more efficent than MH or CF. I don't know the exact reason why, but it has to do with the color spectrum. HPS lamps have very low Kelvin ratings and are very high in the red end of the color spectrum. Some say that peaks in certain parts of the spectrum produce more algae growth. But, MH are cheaper anyways and you have more options as far as bulbs. Also, there is no real reason why you can't use a glass cover on the tank with MH. The glass is going to reflect the same percentage of light no matter what the source is. Just try to keep it clean, like you woud anyways. Also, MH and CF of the same wattage will produce about the same amount of heat, which would produce the same amount of evaporation. Actually NO flourescents are less effecient at producing light usable to the plant, the rest is heat. So they should produce more evaporation per watt than CF or MH. I don't think you need CO2 with MH either. I have a 75g w/350w MH, and a 45g w/175w MH, both without any added CO2. I will say that it is easier with CO2, without is definitely possible. But, it does limit what plants you can keep, and I have had some serious algae battles when I first setup the tank, before it balances out. After you get a system it is definitely possible and it actually slows the growth to make it more manageable. Just my two cents again. I hope it helps.

[Mouflon44]

Thanks for the replies, I am warming up to the MH route.

Would it be feasible to buy 4' strips of glass and lay them across the tank width-wise as a cover? I would have to get several to keep the weight of each plate down for easy removal and I would also need to design a lip to hold the plates. I don't think I would want them to be over a foot or two in width. What thickness glass would work? Will glass bow over time if spanning a distance of 4'? I know plexiglass bows and warps badly, not sure about glass. Thanks again.

[DIYMatt]

Well, since my largest tank is a 75, I've never had to deal with peices of glass that big:(. But, I wouldn't be confortable with that long of an unsupported span of glass.

If it were me, I would build in front to back bracing to support all four edges of the peices of glass. I would probably section the tank off into 3 or 4 sections. then I would even think of having two peices of glass cut for each section. Then you could just remove the back peice for access in each section to make it easier. You probably won't need any more access than that unless you've got the chest waders on:). I am by no means an expert on glass, but I would think 1/4 plate glass would work. You might want to think about tempered glass in case it breaks.

You've got me thinkin here, which is dangerous. There is a nice open wall between my living room and office, all it has is surround speakers..... hmmmm...bigtank....inwall.....grow anything.....

[Mouflon44]

Thanks Matt,
You have been a big help. I believe I will look into the bracing further. It will need to support the glass without blocking the MHs light. Sounds like a good plan if I can figure that out. I'll check at work and see if I can get some 317 SS metal strips to hold the glass.

You think I should use the pendant MHs or the reflector kind. I will have to hang them from the rafters above, so I was thinking maybe pendant. Is one better as far as projecting light than the other?

Well, I'm going to put a few more screws in the stand. Almost finished. Then I start on the tank! (next week) This whole project started out as a blur at first, but thanks to AC things are starting to come into focus. :)

[DIYMatt]

Are you planning on DIYing the MH's or buying them pre-assembled? Either way should work well. But, more light comes out of the side of a MH lamp. So, the horizontally mounted reflector type lights are more efficent, assuming it has a halfway decent reflector. If you plan on DIYing let me know, I have some suggestions for you. If your are buying prebuilt systems, check out the Hydroponics stores. Both locally, if you have one, and online. They might have less expensive lighting systems that aren't much to look at, but they usually have excellent reflectors and quality components. But, the pendant type might be advantageous because of the small size. Although its not really that difficult to build a simple pulley simple to raise the lights to get out of your way. The MH bulbs will burn you if you bump into them while they are on. I'm glad I can help.

[Mouflon44]

I looked on-line at the HydroSun (http://www.hydroponics.com/light/index.html) MH reflectors.

Do you think I need the enclosed ones with the glass covers and fans? or would the integral be better?

How far above the water should these hang?

[DIYMatt]

The integral reflector light systems look almost perfect to me. The only issue I have seen with the systems the integral ballasts is that they are a little tricky to hang level, since the heavy ballast is on one side of the enclosure. I don't see much of an advantage to the sealed systems. They just cut down on the radiant heat projected downward. But, since you are going to have glass covers on the tank, that point is mute. Also, the more glass you put between the light and the water the more light you are losing to reflection. I have read that glass lenses on lights can cut almost 20% of the useable light output, thats just one peice.

As far as how high to hang the lights, that is debatable. I am of the opinion the closer the better. Light intensity drops off dramatically the farther you get from the bulb. My MH tanks are open tanks with exposed bulbs, no lenses or covers at all. I just measured and my bulbs are about 10" from the surface of the water. Farther than I thought. If I had lenses, they would definitely be closer. The only issue becomes if something grows out of the the water. The plants quickly burn with the lights that close. Not from heat, but just from light intensity. If it was my tank I would hang them on a pulley system so I could raise/ lower them. I just put one of my lights on a swing arm so I can just swing it out of the way. I love it, its much easier than raising and lowering it. If I can scrounge a camera, I'll try to post some pics, it was really cheap and easy.

[Mouflon44]

Thanks for the input Matt. I will probably go with the integral.

That swing arm sounds like an awesome idea too. Did you make your arm, or does someone else make a swing arm stout enough to swing a MH light?

I don't think the integral reflector comes with a bulb. Now I just need to find the $20 ones you buy. :D

[DIYMatt]

Strength would definitely be an issue on the swing arm. Mine are just supporting an aluminum reflector, socket and bulb. But, I have seen "swing arm" type deals at the local hydro store and at industrial supply houses. But, I think they are quite expensive. I think a simple cord and pulley system would probably be easiest/cheapest.

What wattage of lights are you thinking of? One thing to consider about going with say two 400 W MH's is that you are going to have some brighter spots and some darker spots. The spots directly below the bulbs will be very bright and the edges and middle of the tank will be much less bright. You can even it out a little more by raising the lights some, but the tradeoff there is less light intensity. Actually 3 400W MH's would allow to grow anything, but more work, tradeoffs. Heres a link to some inexpensive bulbs:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=9&subcat=560&cat=250+Watt+Metal+Halide

The one on top looks exactly like the bulb I use. The one on the bottom seems very intriguing for only $15 more. Color shift is definitely an issue in cheap bulbs. Keep in mind these bulbs will run for a couple of years before you need to replace them. ANother reason why long term, MH is less expensive. IMO my bulbs work well, but the tank definitely has a yellowish hue and some of the colors, especially fish like cardinals, don't have the irridessent pop they do under higher kelvin rated bulbs. This is only noticeable to me beacuse I had a tank in the same room with CF lighting at about 6500K. But, some people say the 4000K bulbs look more natural because the color spectrum is color to the suns. Once again trade-offs. Also, I have read that the 6500 K bulbs are actually superior for plant growth because the spectrum is more complete. I have never used one however because they are very expensive. But, since you are only buying 2-3 bulbs, the cost difference may not be that significant.

Also, check to see if you have a hydroponics store near you. The Homegrown Hydro lights are nice, but you should be able to get about the same price in a reg. store and save on shipping. easier return, etc. The cheap bulbs you can pick up at HD/Lowes type place for about $10 more than online. Although, I have never seen the Iwasaki 4200K bulb locally. Ask at the hydro store if they know the Kelvin raitngs of their MH bulbs, they may have a good solution, also.

Matt