Not sure ich recovery is going well - need help

[naturegrl]

I'll first try to give a little background...

I have a 55 gal. tank that is 5 weeks old. Not sure where I'm at in the cycling. I've been using Special Blend - a microbe lift which I think is why I haven't seen an amonia spike at all(I've talked to several people who have used this and never saw an amonia spike in a new tank). I test the water a few times a week and readings are always good.

I did a dumb thing and added new fish too quickly to the ones that moved over from the old 10 gal. I vac the bottom and do 20% water changes every weekend. I've never tested a problem in the water so far.

I started noticing spots on a couple of my new fish and after talking with lfs started treating with salt and raising the temp from 76 to 78, 80,...
3 airstones running. Magnum 250 h.o.t. filter.

After a few days things got much worse. Started treating with Quick Cure at 1/2 dose. 2nd round at 3/4 dose. Several days later started losing fish. Everyone had spots but the black widow tetras. Still been doing regular water changes. Tomorrow will be the 18 day since I started treating with Quick Cure. Today, My black phantom tetras seem to have a few new spots. UGGG!!!

Here are the remaining survivors:

1 Dwarf Gourami - Looks dull in the face
1 powder blue gourami - not well- keeps listing and rests on bottom
4 black phantom tetras- in rough shape - these guys were pretty beat up by the serpae tetras(badly nipped fins) before I found a new home for the serpaes, now they look like they may have fin rot.
1 spotted cory
1 pleco
3 tiger barbs- looking a little better. they have been looking dull too.

I think the whole fiasco may have started when the serpaes were added. They were little bullies and chased everyone around relentlessly.

Sorry, I know this is alot of info but I know it's needed for trying to help me out.

One of my concerns is the ph. Is 8.2 pretty high? what would cause it to be high? I do have several live plants in there but keep them free of dead leaves.

Here are water test results from 10/20/08 (week five)

Amonia 0
Nitrate 10
Nitrite 0
Ph 8.2
Water temp 85 degrees

One other concern, should I just abandon the quick cure? I feel like all I am doing is poisoning my fish. Tomorrow is to be the last day of treatment in, I think, round 3 and then Friday would be a water change.

Not sure if I should stay the course or try a different strategy.

This has been a very sad and humbling experience. I've been spending much of my spare time reading, reading, and more reading on aquarium maintenance, troubleshooting, general care and on and on. It seems like if you ask 10 people a question about how to handle an aquarium problem, you'll get 10 different answers too so it is all so frustrating. I'm not giving up though. I feel terrible about the whole thing. I know I made some poor choices but I'm doing everying I can to salvage what's left.

I'm hoping someone can shine a ray of hope here.

Thanks,
Tina

[naturegrl]

BTW , Ph from tap is reading 7.6 on the regular ph test and 7.4 on high range test. I'll let a sample sit over night and test again tomorrow.

[DrNo]

Tina, welcome to the forums! I assure you that we can all sympathize with your frustrations. To begin, would it be possible to get a few photos of the ill fish? I (and all the other regs. here) will feel better knowing that we're giving advice for the right disease.

Please describe how you've been dosing the salt. If it truly is ich, I would have expected some improvement to have been made with the salt and temperature regimen. It makes me wonder if perhaps you're fighting something else....

At this time, please rest easy on the pH issue. This is the least important parameter you're facing at the moment.

[naturegrl]

I think a clear pic is going to be next to impossible. The only fish that have spots right now are the phantom tetras and they hide at the bottom in the back behind the rock and plants. I will try in the morning though when it is lighter. When I looked ich up online, the photos I saw looked exactly like my fish's spots.

Tina

[naturegrl]

Oh, sorry, the salt... I gave up on the salt treatment when I started using the Quick Cure. I didn't think it would be a good idea to mix them. I've probably done at least 2 20% water changes since I last added salt. Should I add salt now or wait until we're done with the quick cure?

[DrNo]

Great, we'll assume its ich with that characterisitic 'salt' like appearance. Here are just a few additional photos for comparison:

http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/hospital_pictures/001_l.jpg (http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/index.php?Step=3&GalleryId=2&klickedPic=001_l)
Ichthyophthirius

http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/hospital_pictures/002_b.jpg (http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/index.php?Step=3&GalleryId=2&klickedPic=002_b)
Oodinium (aka 'velvet')

http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/hospital_pictures/005_d.jpg (http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/index.php?Step=3&GalleryId=2&klickedPic=005_d)
Bacterial infection

http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/hospital_pictures/041_b.jpg (http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/index.php?Step=3&GalleryId=2&klickedPic=041_b)
Columnaris (a very virulent bacterial infection)

http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/hospital_pictures/042_c.jpg (http://www.jbl.de/onlinehospitaluk/perpicture/index.php?Step=3&GalleryId=2&klickedPic=042_c)
Ectoparasites

How exactly (and amount) have you been dosing the salt to the tank?

[DrNo]

My recommendation is to stop using the QuickCure and resume the salt regimen. Here is a fantastic cut/paste from Lupin on the General Freshwater article page re: treatment of "white spot disease". I would follow the guidelines for addition of salt and temperature increase to the letter:

White Spot Disease
Synonyms:
Ich, Ick

Symptoms:
Early signs of white spot begin when fish flick themselves against rocks. They may also swimming in an odd behaviour as if they were trying to use the water to wash away an irritation. Some of the more common causes are stress, bad water conditions, live food that have been infected by the pathogens or already infected fish without quarantining it.

Description:
Ich is a protozoal infection that afflicts fish and can rapidly kill them, most often by damaging gill tissue. It is highly infectious and potentially lethal and manifests as tiny white spots all over the fish. The spots are no larger than grains of salt. The wide host range of this parasite is its life cycle, and speed of multiplication especially in a tropical aquarium. When you see the white spot on your fish, it is already too late for those ich particles to be avoided.

The organisms, trophonts goes through a life cycle of a small white spot feeding on your fish which drops off to the floor of your tank and encases itself in a cyst called tomont. While encased in a cyst, it divides into up to 2000 new mobile organisms called theronts. The cyst then ruptures, thus releasing the theronts which seek out a host to feed into. They must locate a host within 24 hours otherwise they will die. Only the mobile stage is vulnerable to treatments.

Ich will appear if the fish is stressed. Note that it acts more as a 'contaminant' and is not part of the tank's ecosystem. Any new fish should be quarantined for 2-4 weeks. Failing that will increase the risk of introducing diseases which wil affect other occupants. New fish are always possible carriers of diseases.

Treatment:
Salt
Increase the temperature to at least 84-86 degrees as much as the fish can tolerate. Add aquarium or table salt (dissolved in water) at a ratio of 2 teaspoons of salt per gallon of water in your tank. While waiting, it does not hurt to add a powerhead or airstone to increase the oxygen level. Over the first couple days, your fish will appear worse and will eventually recover as the treatment progresses. In most cases, ich will disappear on the sixth day. However, there is still a probability that some cysts have not yet ruptured so it is advisable to keep the treatment up for full ten days.

If you are not able to raise the temperature at all, you need to extend the treatment. At 85 degrees Fahrenheit, the life cycle of ich is quicker. The colder the temperature, the slower the life cycle thus the treatment will extend even longer than required.

Unfortunately many plants do not do well with this salt treatment and may appear to be failing but will usually come back in time. Removing them to a salt free environment after a thorough rinsing may save them, however they must be kept at the high temperature as well. When the cyst breaks up in the plant holding tank, the small parasites will be unable to find a host and will die within 24-48 hours. Ich is easily transferred to other fish tanks so do not share nets, heaters and wet hands between infected and non infected tanks. Fish in treatment appear to do better with a reduced feeding regimen.

When you look into a fish store's aquarium, their fish may appear healthy without any signs of disease. Ask how long the fish have been in the store and when the last time new fish were added to that tank. If it has been 2 weeks or more, your chances of getting disease free fish is high.

Clown loaches and young oscars are notorious for getting ich after they are transferred to your tank. These and many others can tolerate salt. If you are unsure about your fish’s tolerance for salt, be sure to look for answers in a reference book or ask an expert.

A salt test kit available at your local fish store will help you get the exact dosage. Something in the range of .2%, is where you want to be.

Other Treatments:
Malachite Green, Formalin

Authors:
Anythingfish (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/member.php?u=12)
ChileRelleno (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/member.php?u=4713)
guppy (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/member.php?u=283)
SkepticalAquarist.com (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/)
Tokis-Phoenix (http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/member.php?u=20977)

[naturegrl]

Thank You DrVader for the info. I really appreciate your help. Here's the latest...

I really felt that I should quit the quick cure, do a big water change, put the carbon back in the filter and see what happens. I stopped in my lfs and they agreed that we need to stop, take a break and see where we're at. He was concerned that maybe we are dealing with somehting else too.

I'm happy to say we have no more spots! Unfortunately, my gouramis and black phantom tetras look bad. Maybe a fungus or fin rot? I tried to get a few pics but it's like trying to wrangle puppies-- couldn't get anything clear. I'll try to explain the best I can... My gouramis, one powder blue and one red dwarf, are getting dark tips on their little pectoral fins(not the "feelers") The red 0ne (My favorite fish) is very dull in the front half of his body. He used to be silvery but now is very dull gray. His dorsal fin looks like it is getting more transparent. The blue one sits at the bottom, fins clamped--he's been like this for over a week. He will swim a little but goes back to sitting on the bottom--haven't seen him eat for a few days.

The phantom's tails were nipped quite badly by serpae tetras who are no longer with us. Now their tails are kind of whitish on the edges. They look pretty bad. We lost one yesterday. I came home to find him stuck to the filter inlet.

I did a 30% water change while vacuuming the bottom thoroughly yesterday. Water temp is still around 85 degrees. Everything testing normal. Ph is hanging around 8.2-8.4.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. The lfs suggested the water change and clearing the water with the carbon back in the filter and then just waiting it out for the weekend and see how things are Monday before we try anything else.

I haven't read anything about fin rot/fungus yet. Is it possible that those things could just go away on their own? I have not added any salt. Does it have any positive effects on fungus or fin rot?

I'll stop there for now. Thanks so much for the input.

Tina

Remaining survivors:
3 tiger barbs
2 dwarf gouramis
1 cory
1 pleco
4 black widow tetras
3 black phantom tetras

[naturegrl]

I made another attempt to get a few pics. Never posted pics on the boards before so here goes.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8785/1002612editedfg7.jpg

My poor little blue dwarf gourami- pectoral fin turning blackish

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1491/1002606editedbo2.jpg

Tough to see here but fins are whitish on their edges. The other two look much worse. Not much left of tail fin.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4218/1002607editedgq8.jpg

Dwarf gourami "feelers" look like a hair with split ends, is a dull color in the face, seems to be losing his color. Tip of pectoral fin turning black- shown in pic.

That's the best I could manage. The two phantoms that looked the worst were hiding.

Thanks,
Tina

[DrNo]

Thank You DrVader for the info. I really appreciate your help. Here's the latest...

Our (entire community's) pleasure...

I really felt that I should quit the quick cure, do a big water change, put the carbon back in the filter and see what happens.

If you use carbon regularly in your filter, make sure you change it (replace it) very regularly. I'd say at least once every 1.5 weeks or so to make sure it doesn't start leaching contaminants back into the water. Many users (including myself) don't use carbon unless we're trying to remove a contaminant from the water column.

I stopped in my lfs and they agreed that we need to stop, take a break and see where we're at. He was concerned that maybe we are dealing with somehting else too.

I'm happy to say we have no more spots!

Great news, congrats! Remember that if it was ich, you should keep the salt treatment up for the full 10 days (see the instructions in the article above).

Unfortunately, my gouramis and black phantom tetras look bad. Maybe a fungus or fin rot?

I doubt its fungal. Fungal infections do occur in our tanks, but they are relatively rare and are almost always associated with a prior injury.

I tried to get a few pics but it's like trying to wrangle puppies-- couldn't get anything clear. I'll try to explain the best I can... My gouramis, one powder blue and one red dwarf, are getting dark tips on their little pectoral fins(not the "feelers") The red 0ne (My favorite fish) is very dull in the front half of his body. He used to be silvery but now is very dull gray. His dorsal fin looks like it is getting more transparent. The blue one sits at the bottom, fins clamped--he's been like this for over a week. He will swim a little but goes back to sitting on the bottom--haven't seen him eat for a few days.

The phantom's tails were nipped quite badly by serpae tetras who are no longer with us. Now their tails are kind of whitish on the edges. They look pretty bad. We lost one yesterday. I came home to find him stuck to the filter inlet.

Sorry to hear about the losses. It looks like you've had some recent stress in the tank (nipping) which can bring out ich and other diseases in susceptible specimens.

I did a 30% water change while vacuuming the bottom thoroughly yesterday. Water temp is still around 85 degrees. Everything testing normal. Ph is hanging around 8.2-8.4.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. The lfs suggested the water change and clearing the water with the carbon back in the filter and then just waiting it out for the weekend and see how things are Monday before we try anything else.

I agree that at this point, you should not initiate any new treatments. I can't see much in the photos, but the fact that the spots have now dissapeared suggest it certainly could have been ich. I would keep to the 10 day treatment course and concentrate on providing very clean water (change ~25-33%% daily). This clean water will definitely help your fish recover from whatever is ailing them. Finrot and other conditions often reverse on their own simply by providing a high quality diet and clean water.

I haven't read anything about fin rot/fungus yet. Is it possible that those things could just go away on their own? I have not added any salt. Does it have any positive effects on fungus or fin rot?

Salt will not help the specimens recover from finrot or fungus. However, keep it up for the ich treatment until the 10 day course is over. If your specimens continue to get worse in coming days, you might want to consider starting treatment with an antibiotic. I've subscribed to this thread and will keep checking for your updates. In the interim, concentrate on the clean water. Good luck!

I'll stop there for now. Thanks so much for the input.

Tina

Remaining survivors:
3 tiger barbs
2 dwarf gouramis
1 cory
1 pleco
4 black widow tetras
3 black phantom tetras

See above in blue...

[naturegrl]

Thanks so much for the help. Lost another phantom. I'm really concerned about my gouramis. I don't know if they are going to make it. I do have some maracyn from when I had guppies with fin rot in my old 10 gal. tank. I'm really torn. I'd like to save them if at all possible. Should I put them in quarantine and treat them with the maracyn? My quarantine would be the 5 gal. pail I use for water changes, an airstone, and my old 10 gal. heater. OR should I just leave things alone, do the daily water changes, add salt as recommended above and hope for the best?

I really appreciate the help. I was reluctant to post because it seemed like I read a bunch of postings of people really tearing into people for making bad choices etc.

Thanks for not doing that :)

Tina

[DrNo]

Thanks so much for the help. Lost another phantom.

I am so sorry to hear that Tina...

I'm really concerned about my gouramis. I don't know if they are going to make it. I do have some maracyn from when I had guppies with fin rot in my old 10 gal. tank. I'm really torn. I'd like to save them if at all possible. Should I put them in quarantine and treat them with the maracyn? My quarantine would be the 5 gal. pail I use for water changes, an airstone, and my old 10 gal. heater. OR should I just leave things alone, do the daily water changes, add salt as recommended above and hope for the best?

Unless you have reason to suspect a bacterial infection (visible bacterial patches for example) it does't make sense to start another treatment (yet). I'm encouraged by the fact that your spots dissapeared with salt/heat. That indicates it may very well have been ich. Your specimens are stressed as they recover and sadly, we sometimes lose fish in the process. Keep us updated but for now, I still think concentrating on extra clean water is your bet bet. If you have reason to suspect something else is going on, post back and we can talk about whether the maracyn makes sense.

I really appreciate the help. I was reluctant to post because it seemed like I read a bunch of postings of people really tearing into people for making bad choices etc.

Thanks for not doing that :)

I don't think anyone really 'rips' into anyone here at AC, perhaps with one exception: the aquarist who persistently violates standards of aquarium care (such as overstocking, filthy conditions, inappropriate stocking, no testing of water parameters, etc.) despite all advice given to consider an alternative. Even then, the intent is to educate the user on how to better care for their fish/tanks.... not to belittle them. I personally call out users for poor standards of care. None of use are 'experts', and we all have much to learn. The best users are willing to listen to the advice/support of those who may have more experience/knowledge and take corrective action. You're clearly genuinely concerned for the health of your fish and do not let your ego get in the way of their interests. Therefore, it is easy to assist you and a pleasure :) Please keep posting updates!

Tina

See above in blue...

[naturegrl]

Thanks DrVader. I'll keep you posted. So far, my last 2 phantoms seem to be doing okay. My gouramis are holding on for now. I'll keep up with the daily or every other day 30% water changes going for a week or so and see how things go.

How long and how to know it is safe to add fish? I'm really not even sure what I want to add yet. I know I want to add more plants and maybe rocks. Beyond that, I don't know what other fish I want to stock. I'm frankly too afraid to try anything else for quite a while after this whole disaster.

Tina

[DrNo]

These things happen Tina :) I'd wait at least 2-3 weeks after the completion of the full 10 day salt ich treatment course before adding anything. Its advisable to Qt new fish for one month prior to adding to the existing stock, but not everyone has a hospital/QT tank at their disposal.

[naturegrl]

I was afraid this was going to happen ... lost my blue gourami today. Very sad but I've been kind of expecting it. On the upside, it looks like the others are okay. Still a little concerned about my other dwarf gourami. His pectoral fins are stil black on the tips.

Here's another question:

Do I need to keep so many bubbles going?

-Temp is 85 degrees

-I have about 10 med. size plants

-doing 30% water changes every other day

-running a magnum h.o.t. 250 filter

I have 2 small air pumps running. One with a 4" airstone, the other with 2 small 1" airstones. The one air pump is noisy and starting to grind my nerves. I'll put up with it if it's needed but if not I'm pulling the plug!

Also how much longer should I keep the temp up at 85?

Thanks,
Tina

[DrNo]

I was afraid this was going to happen ... lost my blue gourami today. Very sad but I've been kind of expecting it. On the upside, it looks like the others are okay. Still a little concerned about my other dwarf gourami. His pectoral fins are stil black on the tips.

Here's another question:

Do I need to keep so many bubbles going?

-Temp is 85 degrees

-I have about 10 med. size plants

-doing 30% water changes every other day

-running a magnum h.o.t. 250 filter

I have 2 small air pumps running. One with a 4" airstone, the other with 2 small 1" airstones. The one air pump is noisy and starting to grind my nerves. I'll put up with it if it's needed but if not I'm pulling the plug!

Also how much longer should I keep the temp up at 85?

Thanks,
Tina

So sorry to hear that Tina... it's encouraging to hear the rest of the stock seems to be pulling through.

Please remind you when did you start the salt and heat treatment (how many days ago)?

In the interim, don't be afraid to increase the amount of water you change to ~50% or do ~%25 water changes each day.

[naturegrl]

It's been around 21 days.

[KarlTh]

Are we still seeing ich spots? If not, I'd reduce the temperature and identify what infections the fish now have. If it's bacterial, then the high temperature will be making things worse.

[DrNo]

21 days... that should have been more than enough time for the ich (if that's what it was) to clear/improve. I agree with Karl. Drop the temp back down, stop all salt addition, and see what's still going on. Do keep up with the accelerated schedule for water changes to clear the salt out and to promote healing.

[fish-n-chips]

one question , Have you seen the free form of ick on the sides of your tank at all?That happens after they hatch and leave the host fish.If you have seen this and now it is gone take that as an encouraging sign.I' m sorry that I just saw this thread , I know what it is like to go through such a traumatic experience after puuting in the time you have. Sorry to hear @ the loss of all of your fish.Dr. Vader really knows what he is talking about. Keep us informed as to any progress.

[KarlTh]

fish-n-chips - there is no free-living stage in the ich lifecycle visible to the naked eye. I don't know what you've seen, but it's not ich.

[naturegrl]

Ich seems to be gone. Haven't seen spots for probably about 2 weeks. Everyone but my gourami seems to be doing fine. The black phantoms are much more active now. They seem pale, but acting fine. My gourami sits on the bottom most of the time. His color has faded a bit and his silvery parts seem dull and gray. He's my favorite fish, so I'd really hate to lose him. Could the quick cure have dyed him the dull gray/blue? He did come out of the plants today and eat a fair amount. That was encouraging.

I'm still doing the water changes every other day. How long should I keep this up? I normally do water changes once a week.

I lowered the water temp to 82 degrees removed the extra airstones (still have a 4 in. airstone running)

Other than my ph being a little high (8.3) My water parameters are good.

Thanks again. Things are starting to look up.

Tina