HELP!!!!!!

[mel_20_20]

My new marble angel is sick!! I just saw it swimming sideways.... its breathing deep big slow breaths... not gasping... I got it out and have it in a saltwater dip...
about 1 cup w/1/4 tsp.... for 5 minutes and started diluting the salinity... I don't know what's wrong.....

nitrites 0, ammonia 0 ph 7.4 temp 79

what's happening... can anyone suggest what to do
I have the fish in a baggy in the tank to keep it's temp up

the water in the baggy is agout 3 cups now with the original 1/4 tsp salt....

What's wrong with my angel!!!???

everything else looks ok in there... another angel and 2 guppies... 2 otos 1 brochis 2 adfs

[mel_20_20]

I can't believe this is happening to me.... and right now I have to leave for work.... I have it in the baggy in the tank.... it's lying on its side.... laboured breathing......

[krytan]

What size tank is it?
How long has it been set up for?
How often do you do water changes and how much?

Don't use salt unless you are treating ick.

[evelyn80]

melody is that fish in your 10 gal?? u should return itll outgrow your tank in notime and eat your neons when its big enough. upgrade to at least a 35 gallon before going with angels. the fish is probably dieing but is there any other symptoms?

[DrNo]

What size tank is it?
How long has it been set up for?
How often do you do water changes and how much?

Don't use salt unless you are treating ick.

Sup krytan, here's a link to the thread for the status of the tank. These marbles are new gifts after loss due to the addition of an unidentified tank conditioner:


http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171897

Melody, you're not online on at the moment so I'm assuming you went to work. Whatever you find when you return, please accept that these things happen and you're still on the learning curve for keeping your specimens and tank healthy.

1) If you have not already, please stop using ALL conditioners of any sort in your tank except Prime, NovAqua, or a similar conditioning product. if you don't have one that you trust, now is the time to go out and buy a bottle of Prime. Ditch anything that indicates it has bacteria in it or helps stimulate the filter bed.

2) If you have not already, perform an 80% water change to get whatever you put in that tank out ASAP. It would be great to check your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH in the tank as well, so place some of the old tank water aside to test when you're done.

Your priority now is to do the water change. Make sure the incoming water is temperature matched and use enough Prime etc. to make SURE deadly chlorine or chloramine is nuetralized. Note that some products require a DOUBLE DOSE to neutralize chloramines! Read the label.

3) I really don't like telling people exactly how to proceed, (I swear... I don't! :D) but I'm going to make an exception in this case. Please stop using salt unless you're treating for ich and using it as a medicine for a 10 day course. Jus't don't. No dips, no removals from the tank to salt baths or bags, no addition of salt to the aquarium, nothing. It is doing absolutely zero for your specimens and you're likely causing additonal stress between netting and these dips.

4) 99% of the time, your fish are better off in your tank and in a larger volume of water. Large volumes of water are more stable chemically and dilute any contaminants. Bagging them/removing them really doesn't help the specimen in its recovery IF you provide clean, conditioned water to the tank itself when you suspect trouble instead.

There's trouble here, and a conditoned water change wil not hurt. What type of water conditioner are you using now?

[evelyn80]

i did not relize this was the case, thx for the link dr vader ;)
melody if i were u should upgrade to a 30-40 gal tank. there easy to take care of but have many more options than those smaller tanks. then u could leave your 10 gal tank running for your frogs to.

heres an example stock for a 30 gal

1 angel
7 larger tetras such as red phantom or lemon tetras
4 otos
3 guppys
4-5 brochis

much more diversity and easy to maintain. hope your other angels gets better to but it sounds like it may not make it :( good luck with your tank

[mel_20_20]

I have been using AmquelPlus, also AquaSafe, and have used API Stress Coat, conditioner with aloe. One or the other of these products everytime I have done water changes.

The angel was dead when I came home. I tested the water again and it was the same; 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 20 nitrates, ph 7.4 and the temp 79 degrees.

I went back to the lfs with the dead angel and the lady said she had had several angels die from the tank that angel had been in. She said she didn't know if it was something in her tank or that she may have recieved some angels that had a problem.

In the thread that DrVader included in his post, I tell of my tragedy this past week; losing three beautiful neon tetras and one ghost shrimp during a water change.

I had used something the lady at the lfs gave me, thinking it was a conditioner. It did have beneficial bacteria but it turns out that there was nothing in it to remove the chlorine.

When the fish started dying I quickly added AquaSafe to the tank; I was thinking that the water I had just added back into the tank might not be de-chlorinated. At least, I thought that might be what was happening.

I have always used conditioner during water changes, and thought this stuff from the lfs was a conditioner, too. I use Amquel Plus, and have used AquaSafe, also. I had used the stuff she gave me on two other water changes, but had also used Amquel Plus at that time on both of those water changes.

I have done frequent and big water changes. I've learned from you all how important that is. I just really screwed up on that last big water change.

On Thursday when this happened, as my poor little neons were dying I dialed the 800 number on the AquaSafe bottle, and talked to a rep. He said that it did sound like my fish died of chlorine poisoning. The immediacy of the effect on the fish under the stream of water as I poured it back into the tank indicated, to him, that it sounded like chlorine poisoning. Some of the other occupants of my tank, further away in the corner, have survived this event.

I had aleady added 3 gallons of treated water, using Amquel Plus, to the tank, and so when I poured the next 3 gallons in that only had the stuff from the lfs - this is when the reaction started.

I think the fact that there was at least 3 gallons of good conditioned water in the tank helped the others, and kept me from killing the whole tank.

I don't usually get any fish out of the tank; when I do water changes I'm just careful not to suck anything up in my siphon.

I had read on "Practical Fishkeeping", a website from the UK, an article on salinity having efficacy in emergency treatment for poisoning. Something about improving the oxygen uptake in the gills...

But, I won't use salt again... I was just desperate to try to save the angel, and on the other day, the tetra.

I had the angel isolated in the quart size ziploc bag, with the bag suspended in the tank, the bag open and clamped to the rim of the tank. I was trying to keep the water temp up, and hoping the saline water would help. It didn't.

The thread that describes my recent water change disaster is in the link DrVader included in his post. DrVader helped me so much last night when I posted that, and I'm sure there have been other kind and encouraging posts from others. I haven't been able to go to that thread to read all the other posts yet. I will do that in a few minutes. I wanted to check this thread regarding my most recent problem whith the angel.

I do intend to get a bigger tank. In fact, at the lfs I was looking at several tanks. She has a 29 gal. A 45 gallon. A 55 gallon.
She can get me a 20 gal long or 30 gal long. I guess if I keep the angels I need a pretty big tank.

I thought I might make the 10 a beta tank, with a snail and bunch of ghost shrimp, and some plants. Only thing I think the filter makes a pretty stiff current in the tank, and I understand Betas don't like their fins to get too blown around.

Thanks, so much, for your help and I'll be asking for help on picking out a new tank and selecting occupants

I'm so tired... I'm going to bed after reading the posts on the other thread... but again... my deepest thanks to everyone... I do appreciate it very much.

[DrNo]

Melody, no thanks are ever necessary and I am sorry for the loss. The power of these forums is the ability to share information and provide assistance whenever possible :D

I'm really glad to hear you have a good sense of what happened and are looking to upgrade your tank size! :headbang2:

Make sure you keep us updated with progress (and you know we're all photo addicts)....

"I had read on "Practical Fishkeeping", a website from the UK, an article on salinity having efficacy in emergency treatment for poisoning. Something about improving the oxygen uptake in the gills... "

I placed a link to my 'salt post' in the other thread, and it is a pain to read LOL... still, it should provide you with a little more info. on why I don't suggest use of salt for FW setups.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169580

The effect you're describing in Practical Fishkeeping is indeed discussed in this 'article'... here's the excerpt:

Inhibition of nitrite toxicities: Salt can minimize nitrite poisoning by inhibition of nitrite ion uptake if chloride concentration is ~30 times greater than that of nitrite by sequestration of anion binding membrane transport. Assuming a toxic nitrite level of 0.1 ppm, this would require an estimated chloride concentration of ~3 ppm. Counterpoint: A mere 1 teaspoon of salt would be sufficient to provide this desirable effect for ~300 gallons of tank water; contrast this to the typical recommendation for added salt per gallon.

[krytan]

Thats some great advise from DrVader.



I had used something the lady at the lfs gave me, thinking it was a conditioner. It did have beneficial bacteria but it turns out that there was nothing in it to remove the chlorine.

I had aleady added 3 gallons of treated water, using Amquel Plus, to the tank, and so when I poured the next 3 gallons in that only had the stuff from the lfs - this is when the reaction started.

Keep an close eye on your parameters over the next week, by adding water that wasn't treated to remove chlorine could of killed your bacteria and put your tank into a cycle.



I do intend to get a bigger tank. In fact, at the lfs I was looking at several tanks. She has a 29 gal. A 45 gallon. A 55 gallon.
She can get me a 20 gal long or 30 gal long. I guess if I keep the angels I need a pretty big tank.


A 29g tank is only big enough for one angel, if you get a 45g or 55g and have a pair of angels that want to breed you won't be able to have any other angels in the tank with them.
I wouldn't get the 20g, it's still to small for angels.

[KarlTh]

I had read on "Practical Fishkeeping", a website from the UK, an article on salinity having efficacy in emergency treatment for poisoning. Something about improving the oxygen uptake in the gills...

Yes - I was going to say. Very good for nitrite poisoning (I generally quote 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons for the sort of nitrite levels commonly seen in fishy cycles) but not really going to help for poisoning in general. I feel sorry for salt; so much is promised for it but if it were so marvellous, then (a) marine fish would never get sick, and (b) the NHS must be barking up the wrong tree by telling people to reduce their salt intake; they should be telling them to use it for all their illnesses and save a fortune on those expensive and unnecessary drugs.

[murraycod]

Hang in there, Melody. I know just what you're going through at the moment.
Greg

[DrNo]

.....I feel sorry for salt; so much is promised for it but if it were so marvellous, then (a) marine fish would never get sick, and (b) the NHS must be barking up the wrong tree by telling people to reduce their salt intake; they should be telling them to use it for all their illnesses and save a fortune on those expensive and unnecessary drugs.

:laugh: