Ramming

[aquaman1013]

Ok I have just added 2 fish too my tank and I see someof the fish are ramming their heads into them and they are ramming back what are they doing is that a way of saying get out?????

[jackiomy]

What kind of new fish and what kind of established fish?

[Star_Rider]

we are going to need a 'little' more info.

what is the current stock?
what did you add?
how big is the tank?
how long has it been established?

to start

[noodles62]

Sounds like cichlids...need more info as stated above to be of any help....
What kind of fish in tank(new and old); tank size.......etc.

[aquaman1013]

Sorry guys I keep forgetting I am new here I think once Ipost it everyone will remember
35 gallon fresh water tank
2 ghost shrimp
2 angel fish
3 mollies
1 tiny catfish
2 tetras
the last two I added I am looking for the name on line I cannot think of it they are half yellow in the back and silver in the front.

tank has been up about 8 months
if I can find a site that has photos of fish I would tell you the name

[luckydud13]

I see the angels as the problem of butting, sounds like you put a cichlid in.

[aquaman1013]

Not the Angels And not cichilds they are freshwater fish I knwo that the names are so long I cannot remember.

what I just noticed is my white molly is full of Ich I see it all over her tail and fins So now I have to go buy that ick out question is will it effect the shrimp or any other fish? I have not had ich in a long time I think if I remember I have to empty out the filtter of the carbon and all other stuff or do I just shut it down ?

[noodles62]

Can you post a pic of the "rammers"? We can help you more if know what kind of fish we are dealing with....Yellow and silver - how big are they? Could they be a rainbow- or perhaps sunset gourami???? A pic would definitely help.
Did you quarantine? If not, you will need to treat the entire tank for Ich.....I feel for ya - been there/done that!

[aquaman1013]

NO quarantine the fish stor eis very very good and I have never had a problem for years the mollies are actually 4 months old but I do not see it on any other fish So yes I have to do the whole tank Would it be easier to turn off the filter and let the ick out work 10 days or what .

I will post pic later I am heading out

[jpappy789]

Turning off the filter is a bad idea and ich will not "work itself out."

Here's some info from the disease guide sticky;




White Spot Disease
Synonyms:
Ich, Ick

Symptoms:
Early signs of white spot begin when fish flick themselves against rocks. They may also swimming in an odd behaviour as if they were trying to use the water to wash away an irritation. Some of the more common causes are stress, bad water conditions, live food that have been infected by the pathogens or already infected fish without quarantining it.

Description:
Ich is a protozoal infection that afflicts fish and can rapidly kill them, most often by damaging gill tissue. It is highly infectious and potentially lethal and manifests as tiny white spots all over the fish. The spots are no larger than grains of salt. The wide host range of this parasite is its life cycle, and speed of multiplication especially in a tropical aquarium. When you see the white spot on your fish, it is already too late for those ich particles to be avoided.

The organisms, trophonts goes through a life cycle of a small white spot feeding on your fish which drops off to the floor of your tank and encases itself in a cyst called tomont. While encased in a cyst, it divides into up to 2000 new mobile organisms called theronts. The cyst then ruptures, thus releasing the theronts which seek out a host to feed into. They must locate a host within 24 hours otherwise they will die. Only the mobile stage is vulnerable to treatments.

Ich will appear if the fish is stressed. Note that it acts more as a 'contaminant' and is not part of the tank's ecosystem. Any new fish should be quarantined for 2-4 weeks. Failing that will increase the risk of introducing diseases which wil affect other occupants. New fish are always possible carriers of diseases.

Treatment:
Salt
Increase the temperature to at least 84-86 degrees as much as the fish can tolerate. Add aquarium or table salt (dissolved in water) at a ratio of 2 teaspoons of salt per gallon of water in your tank. While waiting, it does not hurt to add a powerhead or airstone to increase the oxygen level. Over the first couple days, your fish will appear worse and will eventually recover as the treatment progresses. In most cases, ich will disappear on the sixth day. However, there is still a probability that some cysts have not yet ruptured so it is advisable to keep the treatment up for full ten days.

If you are not able to raise the temperature at all, you need to extend the treatment. At 85 degrees Fahrenheit, the life cycle of ich is quicker. The colder the temperature, the slower the life cycle thus the treatment will extend even longer than required.

Unfortunately many plants do not do well with this salt treatment and may appear to be failing but will usually come back in time. Removing them to a salt free environment after a thorough rinsing may save them, however they must be kept at the high temperature as well. When the cyst breaks up in the plant holding tank, the small parasites will be unable to find a host and will die within 24-48 hours. Ich is easily transferred to other fish tanks so do not share nets, heaters and wet hands between infected and non infected tanks. Fish in treatment appear to do better with a reduced feeding regimen.

When you look into a fish store's aquarium, their fish may appear healthy without any signs of disease. Ask how long the fish have been in the store and when the last time new fish were added to that tank. If it has been 2 weeks or more, your chances of getting disease free fish is high.

Clown loaches and young oscars are notorious for getting ich after they are transferred to your tank. These and many others can tolerate salt. If you are unsure about your fish’s tolerance for salt, be sure to look for answers in a reference book or ask an expert.

A salt test kit available at your local fish store will help you get the exact dosage. Something in the range of .2%, is where you want to be.

Other Treatments:
Malachite Green, Formalin

[excuzzzeme]

If you can give us the short name of the fish that will help also. Please add punctuation and capitalization to make your post easier to read.

[aquaman1013]

One tetra

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8352/dsc0003ly7.jpg (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0003ly7.jpg)

second tetra
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9910/dsc0005jy9.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0005jy9.jpg)

NEW FISH
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4671/dsc0006iu4.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0006iu4.jpg)

TANK

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1995/tank004kg8.jpg (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tank004kg8.jpg)

This maybe stupid question but what if I take out the two mollies that are showing the sign of ich and put them in another tank will that get rid of the disease?

[Malbri]

The second "Tetra" is actually a ram

[Zaffy]

...This maybe stupid question but what if I take out the two mollies that are showing the sign of ich and put them in another tank will that get rid of the disease?

The new fish is a rainbow of some sort. I'm blanking on the first one right now.

No, this will not get rid of the disease. It's in the tank, on the fish, and in the gravel. Read the post by jpappy. The malachite green ich medicine is toxic to your shrimp and may be bad for the "catfish" as well, so they need to be out of the tank if you go that route.

[aquaman1013]

I read that.I have the ich medicine will not use OK. NOW as far as the table salt, I will do that NOW But do I leave all filters running with carbon and all pads whatever? I have never treated ich any other way then with the medicine that makes the tank blue

I already have a air stone been in the tank and I use a fluval 405 if that helps

[Zaffy]

Keep the filter running. I've never done the salt treatment myself, but I imagine that keeping the carbon in is fine. Hopefully someone who knows that for sure can clarify.

[Bubbles2112]

I had an ick outbreak when I didn't QT my rams when I bought them. Its awful to get rid of. Jungle make an ick product that is okay for scaleless fish and is safe for shrimp and does not turn your tank blue/green. It is called Ick Guard II. It worked okay for me and got rid of the ick. It is a lengthy cure though cuz its (the ick) is all in your tank. I hate ick......

I forgot--the first two...those are not tetras, more like ciclids. The new one is a Rainbow.

[Cory Keeper]

Yeah, first pic is an african cichlid of some sort, the second is a Ram.

[bluerat]

1st one is a kribensis

[brentling]

1 Kribensis (Pelvicachromis pulcher), 2 Ram (Microgeophagus ramirezi), 3 Boesemani rainbow (Melanotaenia boesemani).

The rams and kribensis would be happiest in pairs. The rainbow needs to be in a group with several others...

[AshK]

I don't know how rams/kribs/angelfish get along, but you will definitely need to take some of them back. There's no way you can keep the rainbow, the fish labled "NEW FISH" in the 3rd picture, as they get big and need a school.

In the future do NOT under ANY circumstances buy ANY new fish until you properly research the fish's needs and compatibilty. I suggest you do not listen to your LFS either!

[DAVIDFBT]

I can definetely see the Krib and Ram as the source of the tension in the tank, I don't think they would like each other's company. And you shouldn't have added the rainbow to the tank when your molly has ich. Like AshK said, you should thoroughly research your fish before you buy them, not just buy them on impulse.

[Coler]

Little bit too much cichlid in there unfortunately to be stable in a 35 G Hex.

If you like the Angels, you need to remove the Kribensis and probably the ram. In medium/long term the Angels would prefer a larger tank. If you prefer the krib and the ram, you could try removing the Angels and see how they go together.

The rainbows are capable of aggression too - I don't know that they can stay with e.g. the Angels and I think they require a larger group to be stable.

Treatment for ich, as per the above, is the salt and heat process.

[KarlTh]

I can't see how long term mollies and Rams are going to get on; mollies don't generally work long term at a GH below around 20 - 30+ preferred; Rams I would be wary of in any water with a GH above 10, 15 at most. There's no overlap here.*

*I know someone is going to tell me that they're successfully keeping a ram in damp chalk and a molly in distilled water, but in general it doesn't work, OK?

[aquaman1013]

Thank you all ,i am alittle annoyed right now THis is a very responable fish store I go to and he says they are not cichilds he has a whole seprate area for them and these were not there.. I always buy fish in pairs and the one you call ram was a pair one died two days after bringing it home THe ram is the quiet one he stay by himself ,BUT he has been one of the rammers him the mollies and the rainbow fish.
Angel fish swim fine they seem to be pocketing at the top of the tank all the time most likely looking for food.

I will start the salt treatment today 70 teaspoons of salt seems like a lot of salt I will then have a salt water tank (LOL)
Thank you again.

[KarlTh]

Those fish are unquestionably cichlids - Krib and Ram. A few pointers (generalisations but I hope useful):

Finnage: Cichlids have a long-based dorsal (top) fin, actually consisting of two sections, a harder front section and a softer back section. In the related Perches, these two sections become separate fins. Tetras have a single short-based triangular dorsal fin and a very small adipose fin between the dorsal and the tail. Note both your fish have the long-based dorsal fin of a cichlid.

Behaviour: Cichlids are generally territorial and prefer to be alone or in pairs. Tetras are usually shoaling fish without a defined territory which will bicker amongst the shoal but nevertheless prefer to be in groups.

If your shop insists those are tetras, find another shop. They are no more tetras than elephants are giraffes.

[aquaman1013]

ok HOw are they surviving on the water don't cichilds need special things in their water?

[KarlTh]

Nope. Angelfish are cichlids too. Rift Lake cichlids do better with hard water, other cichlids prefer it very soft, but the majority aren't fussy. We don't know whether your water is hard or soft at the moment, but it only usually has an impact on long-term fish health, rather than causing instant death.

[aquaman1013]

WOW I am shocked to be honest the store I have beeen shopping in is one of the most popular and honest ones around . I did email him and tell him I got ich from one of his fish because I only buy from him.

I am shocked about the fish, I aksed him for some nice fish that will all get along when I go he told me cichilds are very busy fish and colorful but, he has them in a whole other room and then another room is saltwater.

So Now i have to go tell him he is doing something wrong.

[KarlTh]

The "busy and colourful" cichlids will be the Rift Lake ones. There are lots of others, such as the African riverine species (like your Krib) and the South American ones (like your Ram).

[Cory Keeper]

oh, African cichlids are colorful and active FW fish, only problem is they kind of need to be kept with other cichlids, they have no spot in a community tank, save for the rams. Rams are pretty peaceful.

[aquaman1013]

I am lost now again I was always told african cichild are to be in a seperate tank with special water with coral or something ..Not aware they were different type of cichilds/

[KarlTh]

African Rift Lake cichlids do need to be kept in hard water - coral, on the other hand, is for marine fish. But the Krib is not a Rift Lake Cichlid, although it is African.

[KarlTh]

oh, African cichlids are colorful and active FW fish, only problem is they kind of need to be kept with other cichlids, they have no spot in a community tank, save for the rams. Rams are pretty peaceful.

Cory - Rams aren't African Cichlids. There are lots of cichlids which can be kept in community tanks, some of them African (Kribs are an example), other than Rams.

[Spewn]

African Rift Lake cichlids do need to be kept in hard water - coral, on the other hand, is for marine fish. But the Krib is not a Rift Lake Cichlid, although it is African.


Crushed coral is probably what he heard.

Crushed coral is used in african rift lake cichlid tanks because it helps maintain a high KH level(carbonate concentration) which keeps the pH buffered at around 8.4 iirc? Whole coral could be used as well, I guess.

[aquaman1013]

Yes that is it crushed coral,Thanks guys ..I am still going to let the fish store have it for telling me they are tetras..

[aquaman1013]

Ok I put in the 25 teaspoons of salt table salt and it looks very cloudy i let it sit in water for 30 minutes before.Hope this works I have never done this before..

Is the salt a one time dose for the 10 days or do I have to do water changes as I do now weekly and add more??????/

[mel_20_20]

Ash K I pmd you.

[KarlTh]

Crushed coral is probably what he heard.

Crushed coral is used in african rift lake cichlid tanks because it helps maintain a high KH level(carbonate concentration) which keeps the pH buffered at around 8.4 iirc? Whole coral could be used as well, I guess.

Fair enough. I'm not a fan of whole coral in freshwater. Problem even with crushed coral is it's only really soluble in acid water; once the water is alkaline it is very slow to dissolve, which can be a problem if the GH is still very low, and despite the fuss made about pH in African Cichlid tanks, it's actually the high hardness the fish require. I therefore advocate the use of the African Cichlid salts if the water isn't naturally hard; they're quite cheap when bought in solid form.

We're getting off the point here. What's interesting to me is that there's a bit of a good example here (although not involving massive fish, but involving poor lfs advice and information) for that other thread we're crossing swords on, no?

[aquaman1013]

yes But thank you guys I started treatment and time will tell

[noodles62]

Ok I put in the 25 teaspoons of salt table salt and it looks very cloudy i let it sit in water for 30 minutes before.Hope this works I have never done this before..

Is the salt a one time dose for the 10 days or do I have to do water changes as I do now weekly and add more??????/

Did you add the salt all at once or a little at a time? How are they fairing this morning?

[noodles62]

Just read through the thread again...the Ram (German Blue Ram) will chase and head butt fish when they get in his territiry but they rarely do any damage. I have a Bolivian Ram and I find it entertaining to watch her be bossy; she has NEVER caused any damage. She even chases the angel that is 3 x's her size!. I would only be concerned when the ramming is happening very often & to the point of the "rammie" getting stressed &/or injured. This is typical cichlid behavior and usually once "territories" are established the other fish learn where they "don't belong".....

[aquaman1013]

I added all the salt at once but I let it sit in a bucket of water first .I added 50 teaspoons But as I read I need to add another 25 later on .I guess they look ok one molly is straight up (NOse facing top) But he keeps swimming.
I have the filter running ,Air stone on NOW I asked earlier should I still DO water changes? If so Do I add salt after? THis is the first time I am doing the salt treatment I really did not know you could add salt to freshwater fish.
Water is cloudy but I guess it is to obe expected

[noodles62]

When I dealt with Ich I added the salt water solution a little at a time so as to not shock the fish. It actually took me a few hours to get all of it in. I hope they will be ok. (there is a sticky in FW section on diseases that is helpful)
The water will be cloudy - nothing you can do about that. I would suggest adding an air pump or if you have a hang on back filter, lowering the water level to increase water movement - this will increase the oxygen level. With the increased temp and the salt the oxygen will be decreased.....
Here is the link to the sticky I was talking about....good luck!

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169765

[noodles62]

Here is the link to thread where I dealt with Ich. It has quite a few helpful hints in it....
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167599

[aquaman1013]

Those are confusing I have now raised my temp to 82 degrees.I have added a total of 73 teaspoons of salt lights are offf. It is day 2 will keep informed .I will do a water next Saturday As I just did one last Saturday .
Again I ask Should I add more salt after I do a water change?

Thanks for all the help
RIck

[noodles62]

If you must do a water change it is important to add back to correct amount of salt/per gallons changed out. You need to keep the salt level up for the entire treatment period.

Edit: Correction - if your water change is after 1 week of salt treatment you do not need to add more back. Someone please chime in if I am not correct. I initially added 2 tsp per gallon, but added it very slowly. If your fish are ok after adding it all at once, you should be ok. It is my understanding that it takes 2 weeks for the Ich to run its course.....so keep the temp up and good luck.

[noodles62]

You might get more input of you post a thread in the general freshwater section regarding Ich treatment questions. I have only dealt with Ich once (knock on wood!) but the advice I got here was very helpful....