Sudden unexplained lethargy??

[Inka4040]

Please bear with me through this paragraph, but I'm really at the end of my rope with this. When I came home from Thanksgiving dinner, I noticed all of my goldfish just sitting on the bottom. As soon as they saw me, they immediately came up for food, but soon settled back into inactivity. Yesterday, I tested all the params in triplicate, and came up with nitrate between 0 and 5, nitrite and ammo at 0. Performed a 50% water change anyway, and went to bed. Today, they are exhibiting the same lazy behavior. They are still feeding greedily, but seem to bottom sit most of the rest of the time. Weirdest thing is, over the past year or so, this is now the third time that my goldfish have shown a sudden unexplained decrease in activity. All three times, there has been no loss of appetite, which first, led me to belive it was flukes. I treated with praziquantel, and the fish got better. A few months later, it happened again, and again I treated with prazi. This time however, it didn't seem to have any effect, and after one of the fish dropsied up (immediately quarantined where it eventually died) I decided to treat the whole tank with kanamycin and metronidazole treated food. Again, the fish rebounded, and it's been about 4 months of good health and growth since then. The tank in question is 75 gallons, and holds 3 (used to be 4 till an unfortunate siphon accident last week) goldfish ranging from 4 to almost 7 inches. Filtration is a rena XP3, XP2, and a fluval 4 internal filter. No new fish, plants, snails or anything have been added for months. Again, sorry for the essay, but I really have no idea what I should do at this point. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[wataugachicken]

my first thought was flukes, but then i kept reading. but saying that you treated them for it, and then they got better, but then relapsed into lethargy later on, makes me think that maybe this is an issue of the parasites becoming resistant to the medication. the second time the prazi may have weakened them slightly and then the metro finished them off, but i don't really know. metro is an antibiotic and anti-protozoal, so it *could* have killed flukes. first thing i would do is try the triple combo again, all at once, and see if anything changes.

[Flaringshutter]

I'm not a big believer in blindly medicating, especially on the second time around. I think your instincts were right, Inka, to treat for flukes. But dosing a second round of all meds at once could kill the weaker fish, besides any remaining parasites. In a situation that's as complex as this, it's really important to scrape and scope before treating again. You may want to do a very thorough S&S, sedating one or two of the worst affected fish and taking a gill clipping, a fresh fecal sample, and scrapes of skin, behind caudal fins, and around the vent. If you don't have access to a microscope, you may be able to take fresh samples into a vet for help diagnosing the problem.
My instinct also says parasites, but it's really hard to say without a scrape & scope. You may also be looking at intestinal worms, but those are even harder to diagnose.

[Inka4040]

How powerful of a microscope would I need to have access to? Seems like it might be cheaper to purchase one than to find/pay for a vet with fish experience?

[Flaringshutter]

Most parasites, fungal and bacterial issues are easily diagnosed with a 400x scope. I bought an old science-class model on ebay for $70 a while back and it was definitely worth it. It's been very helpful in diagnosing problems (not to mention keeping me sane by convincing me there really was nothing wrong) many times.

I think this may be almost exactly the model I have. It looks very similar.

http://cgi.ebay.com/40-400x-MONOCULAR-BIOLOGICAL-ELECTRIC-POWER-MICROSCOPE_W0QQitemZ110315165357QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110315165357&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

Actually, with free shipping, 50 slides and 100 covers, this one is a total steal.

[Inka4040]

Wow! That is significantly cheaper than I was expecting! Awesome. Thanks a bunch FS. I may have to pick one of those up tomorrow!

[Flaringshutter]

No prob, glad to be helpful. :)
I'm surprised that more large fishkeepers don't invest in microscopes, since the initial cost is so cheap. I mean, compared to a vet visit!

[Inka4040]

So I just bought that scope. Hopefully it'll ship out tomorrow. Until then, I'll be doing 50% changes every other day (so I can at least feel like I'm doing something). In the mean time though, are there any good sites where I can study what these lil bugs I'll be looking for will look like?

[Flaringshutter]

Sure - here are a few with excellent photos.

http://training.fws.gov/FishParasites/
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/flukes.htm
http://home.infostations.net/letitiashen/Fish/parasites.htm

And here's a great thread on S&S:
http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67895

Best of luck Inka! Keep us updated.

[JenniferLynn]

My goldfish did this to me once and nearly scared me to death because it was after I had cleaned. I'm new to this but I figured out what got mine doing this...the water change changed the temp in my tank more than I thought and I had removed a tree from their tank that was a pain to clean to get rid of it. All three of them started sitting on the bottom and looking wigged out. I did more water changes to get my temp back and ended up with the old tree outside right out side the tank and they slowly perked back up. When they've done this have things changed for them some how? I didn't realise how they'd react to change until I scared my goldies and they started acting just like dogs do when stuff is getting moved out of the house. Just wanted to give you another idea.

[Ichthius]

What is your pH?

What do you use to dechlorinate? Do you have chlorine or chloramines in your water?

You'll love your scope. I just about to do a significant upgrade, I'm tired of squinting through a monocular and aiming the flashlight at the mirror to light the slide.

I think I'm going to get a used professional grade scope instead of a new knock off.

Ebay's where I'm looking too.

This is the one I have my eye on:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=120342887848 but I'm trying to talk them down a bit, you know with the economy and all ;)

Best fishes
David
www.goldfishgarage.com

[Inka4040]

My ph out of the tap is around 6.8. I have crushed calcium in the tank though, so in between water changes it comes up to around 7.2 - 7.4. I treat the water with prime, so any chlorine and chloramine should be taken care of. I did a vent and skin scrape on two fish yesterday, and found nothing. Don't trust my hands enough to take a gill sample. Today, after a water change, they seem a lot more active so I am leaning towards a chemical in the water (maybe a plug in air freshener?) . I will buy a small HOB so carbon can easily be run at any time. Thanks for all the help everyone, hopefully we'll be able to get to the bottom of this.

[Flaringshutter]

Inka - I did some minor surgery for a bit of infected finrot on my big female the other day, and I used clove oil to sedate. You may want to invest in a bottle - a little bit goes a long way, and it's invaluable for things like gill snips. I just made mixed up some clove oil at 5 drops/gallon into a plastic tub and used that for the surgery. It's simple and quick, plus it is incredibly hard to overdose using clove oil.
Next time you do a filter cleaning, save some of the sludge that collects at the bottom and scope a drop of it. I had a clean scrape from the fish but found some nematodes and flukes in the sludge the first time I scoped. You may also want to scope some feces.

[Inka4040]

Just did a poo scrape. Found 2 distinct "thingies" in there, one were small, dark sesame seed shaped, and swam erratically, and the other seem to be thin clear hairs or worms that didn't seem to move much/at all. They don't appear to match anything in those links. Any idea what they might be and whether they could be the cause of the lethargy?

[Flaringshutter]

Hm. The sesame shaped things I'll have to have a look around for, but I think those thin clear worms are probably nematodes. They're quite common, and some types are parasitic, some are not. When I found some in my scrape, I treated with praziquantel and was able to clear them out. My fish did seem to be more active after the treatment.
I'll have a look around online and in my books and see if I can get you more detail on either type.

[Inka4040]

For now, after reading up a bit and going over some pics on the web, I'm settling with a tentative diagnosis of hexamita. This explains the first fish that dropsied up before dying (I think that's where the infection came from as that particular fish was never quite "right"), the lethargy, and the recurring nature of the symptoms. I'll start the fish on metronidazole food for now, and as a precaution, when the qt period ends for my new fish, I'll go ahead and prazi the whole system just in case for flukes/nematodes. Considering that I've treated with metronidazole in the past, how exactly can I increase my chances of eradicating the hexamita for good this time around?