Blue Acei acting odd- irrational.

[Blown 331]

First I'll give the back groud on the tank. I picked up a used 65 gallon Tanganyika tank in July of 07 with a Cascade 1500 filter. Forgive the spelling. It contained 7 compressiceps / calvus, 4 neolamp leleupi, 1 cylindricus, 1 gold sexfaciatus, 1 juli marlieri, 1 juli transprictus, 1 bumble cat, 1 spotted raffiel and a pleco.
The smallest one was the juli marlieri and he disapeared about a month ago, can't find him, my gold sexfac was big enough that he may have been eaten. And also about a month a go one of my leleupi got killed and mostly eaten. Other than that it's been great.
Since I was now 2 fish short I added a blue acei and a electric yellow (I know thats not a good description). At first my cylindricus really tormented the new guys. But after awhile they were accepted and the blue acei kinda took over as the bully and was chasing everyone even the cylindricus.
So then about 3 weeks ago I went up to a 125 gallon tank. Used crushed corral as the base (what I had before). I used the majority of my old water and topped it off the rest of the way over a few days and added some bacteria zyme. Then I added a hap obliquidens, OB peacock, and a red empress (its silver right now).
Now my blue acei which was seeming like the domanate fish for a little while just sits up top in one corner almost all the time. It barely eats anything and seems to have lost some blue color. It used to be really shiney and blue and now it's kinda dull and almost furry looking- he's not smooth. And when he does come out of the corner he goes crazy, shaking, jumping out of the water, almost swimming upside down. Its like hes on acid. lol. And sometimes when in the corner it shakes almost like a seizure. All my original fish act completly as they alway have. But the yellow is acting a little odd as well, he used to be super active but not so much any more though. My water is the same as it has always been. Nitrate 40ppm, nitrite 0, harness 150 (hard), alakalinity 120, pH about 7.8. Temp 77-78 Thoughts? Everyone seems to talk about ich. I've had aquariums for about 3-4 years and have not seen it yet. I know about the white spots. I thought I saw the "salt looking" spots on a few but it was gone in a few hours. So it might have been just debris, the crushed coral is a really light color. And I did see a few brush against rocks but not all the time, I've seen like 6 of them do it one time each and most of them act totally fine. Help.

[Coler]

Doesn't sound like ich - you'd see it on more than one fish most likely.

The acei sounds severely stressed. I suspect as the dominant fish it couldn't cope with one of the new additions, and the main candidate is the obliquedens. Equally, it could just be stressed from the move to the big tank, coupled with the new additions - its never had to try and dominate this many before, having carved out its niche in the past.

Another possibility is that it has either suffered an actual injury to its swim bladder (less likely as it seems to hold its position in the water at least on occasion) or it has an infection affecting the swim bladder (probably bacterial). In the latter case, stress is probably the chronic contributory factor.

The difficulty is that because of the mix of lakes here, its hard to reccomend a solution. If it was a mbuna tank, in 125 gallons, you'd probably be advised to add a lot more fish. However, tangs are a different story, and victorians are basically known lunatics.

Even if you're not seeing aggression when you are watching the tank, it can really kick off at night or in your absence - bearing in mind that when they see you near the tank they are likely distracted by the prospect of food, so don't write of the obliquedens as an aggressor just because you havn't seen it with your own eyes.

Equally, sometimes you just get fish which are incompatible with each other no matter the size of the tank.

I would remove the acei to treat. Get it into a hospital tank of 10 gallons or more (using your established filter to seed the filter for the hospital tank). Keep the hospital tank in a very quiet area, leave lights off, do a daily water change of 50 % (I never underestimate the healing power of fresh clean water) and see if he improves.

Whilst it is difficult to reccomend a mix for your tank which might be likely to be stable, I'm going to say you should consider either stocking as a 'classic' malawi, or tanganyikan, or victorian tank. This will involve removing the fish from other lakes. If you are intent on mixing, make it a 'mostly mbuna' tank. In 125 gallons you should be thinking of 45 or more fish (heavily over filtered). The mbuna should be from the less aggressive species (more labidochromis caereulus [electric yellows], iodotropheus speregae [rusties], more acei, perhaps some e.g. albino socolofi. You will want 1 male to every 3 or 4 females of each species you add. You could also put some more malawi haplochromines - or peacock species. Your tanganyikans are however likely to find it tough going in there and may not thrive/survive.

Anyway, main point for the acei, is get him out of there and try the daily water change in a hospital tank routine. If he improves, you know you don't need to medicate, just continue this until he's back to himself. If he doesn't we may need to consider an antibiotic (maracyn 2 I think) to treat an infection affecting swim bladder.

You also need to look at your stocking as per the above, but with that mix it will be very heavily based on trial and error and you likely won't be able to act in all of the various species best interest.

[Coler]

Just going to put this into our rift lake forum so we maybe get some more input.

[Pittbull]

i noticed you said furry looking and shaking in your question of description does the furry part intel a look of white fuzzy growth on the fish if so you might have a fungus going and would explain the shaking around to dislodge what it feels on its body, at any rate yeah i agree with what coler said you have some pretty mean counterparts from different lakes mbuna in my opinion will beat the crap out of your tangs even a cylindricus would be punked by the mbuna, i have all the tanganyikas you qouted in my 120gal and my cylindricus will be by far are the most aggressive in my tank, acei and yellow labido's need more buddies to feel safe in a community setting in a 125gal, i wouldnt do any less than 5 acei and yellow labs more the better, your nitrates are sorta high have you started water changes yet and at what frequency, but as mentioned by coler you will need to get the acei out now and into a hospital tank and if the yellow lab is following suit than remove it as well, water changes, water changes, water changes are the healing power you will need and if you fell compelled to add anything it should be salt in the rate of one tablespoon per 5 gallons, again water changes and i am not talking about marine salt for saltwater fishes, freshwater salt or non-iodized salt, good luck and definitely let us know how it is going, later my friend..

[Pittbull]

also i failed to mention depending on size the rapheal cat will fish snack on any fish it can fit into its mouth so will the bumble bee cat that may be the reason your julido's are MIA i would do away with your current catfish stock and do a few synodontis multipunctatus great african catfish for either a mbuna or tang setup just my opinion on catfish aye..

[Blown 331]

Wow, thanks for the input man. I planned on grabbing a 20 gal tank from my dads and getting him out of there today but I have a twist,see below. I'm getting more and more familiar with the cichlids. I kinda hated to mix the lakes but I really like the Malawi's the best. I only paid $200 for all the tang's with tank, filter etc so that was a smoking deal, there were 18 fish. When I bought them I just knew I wanted cichlids (I had a tropical mix 29 gal first) but wasn't familiar with the lakes. I wasn't aware the hap was from Victoria when I got him. They do ok together but if I was starting from scratch I'd prob do all Malawis. I like the mbunas even though I don't think I have any and I like the peacocks. I have 7 caluvs /compressiceps which are kinda boring but they are cool / odd looking and mine are pretty big.

Anyway I did leave out one detail but I don't think it was too important but I guess we will see. About 12 hours before I made my initial post I treated them for ick. So I treated them again last night. This morning I think I have big problems. Excuse spelling again. The blue acei is acting more normal than he has in a few days and the Hap is acting more normal than he has the entire time we've had him (about 10 days), this morning is the first time I had ever seen him with the fins up. BUT, some of my original Tang guys aren't looking so good. The gold sexfatacious (prob 5-6 inches) and the juli transprictus were on the bottom and breathing heavily. The activity of most of them is slowing and none ate this morning, they usually all go crazy over food. I read on the back of an ick medication box that some symptoms of ick are hanging out at the surface and irratic darting of fish. That is what the blue acei had been doing but thats the only place I have seen that as a symptom, I've read tons about ick on the net and have not seen that anywhere else. But I still do not see any really defined white dots on any of them like I see in pics, except for my pleco, he does have some but nothing like pics I have seen, it's very, very minor but I'm thinking it has to be ich, maybe just really minor??? Like I said up top I did see some white dots on a few but they were gone pretty quickly so I thought it might have been debris. Hopefully I'm doing the right thing and they get better soon.

[Pittbull]

well as for the tangs it sounds like they were fine and that it was just the new mbuna the acei and yellow lab are malawi fish with the added stress they very well could have came down with ich from the stress, its very important that when a fish gets sick that you remove that one fish and treat it in a different setup like a hosp tank medication should only be givin at a last resort and this may be the reason for the tangs acting unusual for the tangs sake do a water change today preferred right now, i have seen folks do a malawi / mbuna setup with maybe like a tang just to offset a setup and it can work but when you get a mix like half mbuna and half tangs there will be some territory squabble issues that will result in fish death or disease, you will need to work out that out on how you feel about species aye, wow that was a deal for the setup with 200 bucks good deal aye what state do you live in if you dont mind me asking i would take the calvus off of your hands if needed, i have 5 tanks going right now and i do mostly tangs, but honestly do a water change like here soon..

[Pittbull]

excuse me i am doing like 5 things at one time heheheehe, yeah the obliquidens is from lake victoria and are true terrors and the the yellow labs, acei are mbuna from malawi and the ob peacock and red empress are peacocks from lake malawi and these too can be aggressive as well, in my opinion tangs are down the list on aggression with the current species you have dont get me wrong tangs can be pretty nasty as well but as the list goes they should be the least aggressive, and if the tangs were doing fine and were healthy than when you added the mbuna, victorian and peacocks it offset the balance you will need to play fish equal equalibrium and see what happens i know you could go to a local pet shop and trade your current tangs in for some nice mbuna or peacocks to fill your 125gal tangs fetch a high price in most pet shops especially the ones you have, so did you see any white fuzzy growth on the acei..

[Pittbull]

hey i have to go out and cut the grass and get the leaf litter up so i will check back in later today i am usually on here later at night i am on vacation right now and i need to get some yard work done, take care and PM me if you dont want to tell me where you live on this forum so that everyone else sees your post take care my friend..

[Blown 331]

I live in Illinois, about 20 miles from St. Louis MO. I'm kinda worrying about my mix now. They seem to do ok and I really dont want to add more than like 1 or 2 more because I want them to have plenty of room and I want them to get big. I did see the yellow guy bother a compressicep once. That lasted about 5 seconds and the compressicep did nothing but then the compressiscep really hit him and he took off. My compressiceps (some calvus but I just call them compressiceps) are larger and mellow and are left alone by everyone 99% of the time but they can defend themselves if needed. The gold sexfa.... is huge and no one ever messes with him. The neolamp are somewhat smaller are are left alone, they are somewhat agressive though. There really isn't any compatability issues that I have seen. The new guys fit in just like there were always there. When feeding all of them except the cats and pleco all bucnch up togther and eat for a few minutes, no issues between any of them at all. The tank is in the dining room. When laying on the living room couch I can see it. And with all lights off but tank lights on at night I can see them and I'm pretty sure they cannot see me and still no issues between them.
I'm at work at the moment so I cant do a water change right now. I have 15 gallons at room temp that are ready to go in at home. I know thats not a lot but thats all that is ready and somewhat warm right now. I plan on changing the 15 gallons tonight, treating for ick and doing the same for the next few days. Half of my water is 3 weeks old or less. Man this sucks. And if I have to pick one fish that got stressed and caused ick I would point the finger at that hap from victoria. He was really scared at first and I noticed white stuff all over him but it was gone the next morning so I thought it might have been debris.
And about my cat fish, they are really small. I have 3 cats and they are about 3 inches or less each, give or take a little bit.
As far as the furry statement, I don't think it's really a growth. Instead of the fish being slick and shiney it's just dull and not smooth looking. It's like he used to have a brand new paint job that almost reflected but how he's dull primered. lol! He had a white patch (supposed to be there-it's how he's colored) on his head but now it's kinda brown. His fins and the yellows fins are looking kinda tattered but the blue acei's are looking better this morning as he is acting better too.
I can't really quarantine any since I think it's affecting the whole tank now.

[Blown 331]

Here are 2 pics of them eating 3 days ago. Excuse the extremely poor quality but this was one handed with a camera phone and I could not see what I was taking a pic of. But I cannot tell they are from different lakes by the way they act at all. It's not like I put Oscars in there. lol.

[Pittbull]

photos are not to bad but yeah it very well may be ich than, i was just wondering about your furry statement in all, so i will reach out on a limb here and say you have compatibility issues with different species fighting the tattered fins sorta intels there is some fighting going on so with the combined fighting and punking each other out some fish are going to break out with ich due to stress and possible poor water quality, i am taking in the fact that you said your nitrates were 40ppm and you only do a very manute water change, so to get the tank back into harmony you will need to step up the water changes yes i know you stated 15gals was ready but go ahead and setup again for more water changes 15gal water change in a 125gal setup is a drop in the bucket aye, reduce fish to your liking via all tangs or all mbuna or a mix but you will have to play with the numbers keep checking for whites spots on fish and flashing against objects try to warm the water to 86 and add salt at the rate of 1 TB spoon per 5gals of water for ich treatment repeat water changes and re-salt if necessary in 3 to 4 days after water change maintain water changes say about 40% weekly with filter cleanings a month after all is back to normal reply the heater back to 80 and monitor fish compatibility, later dude i live in ky fort knox your sorta close but too far for fish well if you wanted to get rid of them in the first place. later my friend..

[Blown 331]

I just got home from work. I was somewhat expecting to see SEVERAL floaters. :irked: BUT, I Got home and they all were swimming around almost as normal. :) They aren't 100% but not too bad blue acei still at top most, but not all the time. And I just saw him scrap on 3 rocks right in a row. I guess it was ich the whole time but I'm still not really getting the white dots. But one thing that is weird is the water is kinda milky looking? :screwy:. I have never seen that before. I'm about to change my 15 gallons out then treat them for ich again. My hap obli...(victoria guy. lol.) is doing the best he has been doing since I've had him.
This morning my gold sexfatacous(sp) was laying on the bottom and laboring just to breath and now he is digging a hole in the crushed corral with his mouth. yay.
I used rid-ich which treats several diseases / fungus so maybe if its not ich its something else that the meds treat. The milky looking water really has me stumped? It's not bad but definitely not clear like normal. Thoughts? Does ich do that to the water? Once this is all ironed out I'll probably start a new thread about my mix of fish but I really don't see any problems with it.

[Pittbull]

cool well if it works for you my friend i wouldn't change anything as well and its what you like in this hobby with the fish, now on to the life cycle of ICH here is a theory added from about.com on ICH
Disease Type:

Parasitic

Organism: Ichthyophthirius multifilis

Names: Ich, White Spot

most fish are carriers of this parasite and only when stress ensues is when they break out with ICH, poor water quality and fighting or being attacked are a few causes and most likely the reason for ICH, once ICH is present a life cycle stage begins with this parasite, Infected fish are covered to various degrees with small white spots. Severe infestations are easy to spot, but small occurrences often go unnoticed. However, ich won't remain unnoticed for long.

The adult parasite burrows into the skin of its victim, feeding on blood and dead epithelial cells. The irritation caused by the burrowing parasite causes the skin of the fish to swell and produce white cysts seen as a small spots.

The fish feels as if it's been bitten by a mosquito. It's not unusual to see infected fish scratching against rocks and gravel in an effort to get relief.

After several days of feasting, the engorged parasite develops into a trophozoite, burrows out of the fish and sinks to the bottom of the tank. Secreting a soft jellylike substance, it forms a protective membrane inside of which it divides into hundreds of baby parasites, known as tomites. The hungry tomites soon leave their home in search of a fresh fish to dine upon.

It is during the free-swimming stage, which lasts a mere three days, that the parasite is vulnerable to medication. Once it has burrowed into a new host fish it is safely protected from chemicals in the water.

so to comment on the milky water conditions no i do not believe ICH is the reason for the milky look it is probably the mixture of the medicine you are using and probably a die off of bacteria due to medicines hence is why i do not medicate unless diar need in a emergency situation these drugs if not used correctly will cause more harm than good and will hurt you colony of good bacteria which is essential for a aquatic environment to thrive again buddy i dont want to sound like a broken record but you need to keep doing water changes, the best treatment you can give them would be the higher temps, salt dosage and water changes and in my own opinion that rid - ich is crap i have been a hobbyist for 22 years and i work in the field with fish i am at no-means an expert but i do believe i can help in some cases..

[Blown 331]

so to comment on the milky water conditions no i do not believe ICH is the reason for the milky look it is probably the mixture of the medicine you are using and probably a die off of bacteria due to medicines hence is why i do not medicate unless diar need in a emergency situation these drugs if not used correctly will cause more harm than good and will hurt you colony of good bacteria which is essential for a aquatic environment to thrive again buddy i dont want to sound like a broken record but you need to keep doing water changes, the best treatment you can give them would be the higher temps, salt dosage and water changes and in my own opinion that rid - ich is crap i have been a hobbyist for 22 years and i work in the field with fish i am at no-means an expert but i do believe i can help in some cases..

Yikes. I bet you are right on the die off of bacteria. I changed my 15 gallons out tonight and medicated them again. They are all acting pretty much normal. The acei is again swimming around for the first time in quite a few days. And the Hap Obliquedens is exporing the tank and putting up his fins for the first time ever. He's a male, maybe I'll get him a female then call it good. I still have my 65 gallon tank if it came down to needing to split some of them up. No one seems to want to buy it so I might try a few green terrors in that tank if the 125 pans out ok.
I know what you mean about not wanting to medicate unless absolutely neccessary but for me without a lot of knowledge on this, it was pretty much necessary. If I didnt do it they would have died, garanteed, they looked really bad this morning. I'm gonna keep changing out 15 gallons per day and medicataion for a little longer and I guess add bacterial zyme and keep an eye on water perameters.
So I could have just treated them with upping the temp and adding salt? Well at least I know now. Thanks for all your help, I was getting worried!

[Pittbull]

no worries aye good luck buddy just keep an eye on it when in doubt do a water change hehehe broken record aye, oh that obliq is totally fine by itself if you add a pair terror will strike your habitat nightmare on your street aye, hehehe, later buddy take care hey drop me a PM if you decide to get rid of the calvus..

[Coler]

Nice job pitbull :)

I completely agree with what you say about water changes...two things that always apply, in my opinion, to this hobby :

1. Nothing good happens quickly.
2. If in doubt do a water change.

[Pittbull]

Thanks Coler for the backup, i appreciate that, be gran me mucker..

[efors]

Hi!
As you said, keep doing daily water changes until things get normal. Also, check ammonia levels to be sure it is under control with those changes; without the need of bigger ones each of these next days.

[Blown 331]

I'm getting ready to do another 15 gallon change and plan on doing the same for at least 3 more days, so in 5 days I will have removed 75 gallons. Should be enough I think. The fish are back to normal but I just want to be sure.

[Pittbull]

cool well its a start aye, and glad to hear that they acting more normal for you, but don't stop there with the water changes my friend, a good healthy tank with aggressive fishes needs a water change every week or bi-weekly and filter maintenance once a month, this will be the key to your success and healthy fish living, your fish will thank you and the tool to help you along would be a python no spill n fill kit to make those important water changes a possibility, take care my friend and enjoy..